Albums Mafia: Track Three

Author: Cerulean

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AustinL0926
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@Mharman
I could claim that my role makes it so that anyone I target will have their role work without interference. That would imply that you would have to be lying about your N1 results, since Wylted is flipped town who's telling results that contradict with yours, and a contradiction shouldn't be possible in that situation.

So me clarifying that my strengthener wouldn't have stopped interference with a passive ability shows I'm not going for a mislynch if you're town.

anyway, still backreading through past DPs, will get some thoughts up tmrw
Lunatic
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@AustinL0926
Can you ask how your role would work with a bus driver?
Mharman
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@AustinL0926
Ok. I guess that explains why you believe there is some fuckery going on with roles.
Lunatic
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Alright we still need pie to claim stat, but while we are waiting on that i'll give some input. Role-wise, nothing really screams "has to be scum" to me yet.

Let's go down the list and weigh the good bad and ugly though. 

Mharman: For mharman to be scum, I have to believe that he would have risked a huge gambit last day phase and hoped it would pay off in not getting him lynched today. I was already kind of doubtful that he would lie about his results last day phase. That whole situation between him and wylted seemed very "both parties are innocent here, mafia pulled some sh1t". The thing is I can't actually think of what mafia would have done to pull this off. Wylted claimed his action actually went to casey, which means he couldn't have been redirected which would have been the number one theory.

The bus driver theory: I brought this up last day phase, but one way that wylted could have been telling the truth at the time was with a bus driver. As far as I am aware a bus driver only impacts actions used against the person, not the actions they used. I never got the chance to respond to wylteds post 96, where he asked if a busdriver would effect his result of literally being told he had visited casey, but in theory, no a busdriver wouldnt have effected him. For a bus driver to have worked, mafia had to have visited mharman and bus drove themselves with wylted, which would have effected the results, since mharman is essentially a self watcher, he actually saw the mafia and austin visit himself, but the bus drive would have made it so wylted actually appeared on the result. 
What makes this whole theory really interesting is the fact that austin claimed to be strengther which leads me into....


Austin: If austin is strengthener then we know that mafia have some role impeding ability. Roleblocker is the first to come to mind, but since I am already on topic of a bus driver, I have to wonder how strengther would impact a bus drive, since a bus driver doesn't actually impede an action. I am guessing if austin had strengthened mharman though, mharman would have had to have accurate results, meaning that somehow wylted did visit him. So either I am not understanding how busdriver works, or some other role is at foul play here that I completely don't understand. But for austin to be scum I have to buy that he and mharman are exactly the scum team, something which he did draw attention to already. I am not entirely willing to dismiss this. I am also willing to admit there could be another role at play here that I don't know about, considering cerulean comes from a different mafia background and might be privy to knowing more roles that I do not know about. And again, I would have to buy that they went for a huge WIFOM gambit last day phase for this to be true. I am willing to keep this scum team as an option, but it feels a little too "easy" for my liking.
The last thing I will say about austin is I am a bit surprised with the strengthener claim mainly because I didn't get that from his final post in dp1, I felt like he was hinting at some investigative role and trying to tell us who he investigated in case he dies. Strengthener does feel a bit off kilter after that.

Pie: I don't have a ton to say about pie, other than he looks good right now based off of two investigative results, he would have to be exactly godfather for him to be scum here, which isn't something I am dismissing out of hand yet. But the fact that he isn't seen visiting the kill is also extremely helpful. He could be a ninja I suppose, though if he is a ninja or had an x shot ninja it is extremely convienent it was used tonight instead of last night, and we have no other evidence to suggest more than one watcher/tracker ability (Taking mharman into account). Pie's overall activity seemed a little more lacking than usual this game, but his push on wylted seemed fairly typical of pie's town play. I would suggest he and whiteflame could also be a scum team but I also have results that indicate relative innocence. I am going to keep pie null until he claims further, but I don't have any immediate reason to scum read him at this time, other than POE, but everyone is in POE for me right now. 

Whiteflame: Two things ping me with whiteflame. 1. His role feels pretty OP combined with mharmans, mine, and casey's. That doesn't neccesarily mean it's too good to be true, cerulean did say this was a rolemadness game and we can probably deduce scum has pretty powerful roles to and potentially counters to everything we have. We already know some fvckery happened with mharmans results. 2. Earth was suspicious of whiteflame last day phase, earth happens to die last night. Could be coincidence, could be mafia framing WF, or could just be WF getting rid of who he thought was the biggest threat. Behaviorally other than that I don't have a ton against WF, I tend to find him hard to read in general, but as of right now those are my two biggest issues with WF, both of which are more or less based on WIFOM and I can't really expect WF to defend against that. 

I don't have any glaring scum reads on anyone right now, I feel like I missed all of DP1, and 2 got rushed, so I really want to pace this phase out and participate a lot more and get a feel for scum tells, because it seems this is mylo, and we have to get it right. I have exactly 50% of of lynching correctly this phase, so I would like to make a more calculated decision based on peoples behaviors. 




AustinL0926
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@Lunatic
as in whether my role could strengthen somebody who would otherwise be bus driven? Yeah, I can ask Cerulean.
Lunatic
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@AustinL0926
as in whether my role could strengthen somebody who would otherwise be bus driven? Yeah, I can ask Cerulean.
Or ask how it would function with a gramps, or whatever the title it is that mharman claimed. Because on paper, your strengthen should have meant he got accurate results, shouldn't it have? Regardless of any mafia tamperings...
Mharman
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@Lunatic
That’s a new take on bus driver theory. Interesting. I’m not sure if that works?

Like I get what you’re saying: What would have happened to scum, happened to Wylted.
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@Lunatic
I’m going to knock off for the night since I’m falling asleep in front of my laptop. I’ll post a set of reads tomorrow, hopefully after Pie claims, but I did want to address something missing from your read on me:

There is a dead Miller and I’m the only claimed Cop in this game. My role does certainly seem to have more to it than others that have been claimed/flipped, but unless Pie has been a Cop all along, WyIted’s flip should be a pretty strong consideration in whether you believe my role claim.
AustinL0926
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@Lunatic
My role PM specifically mentions that it prevents actions from being roleblocked or redirected, literally as close as I can get without copy-pasting. Mharman claimed a *passive* ability, which I can't strengthen, presumably.
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@Lunatic
The last thing I will say about austin is I am a bit surprised with the strengthener claim mainly because I didn't get that from his final post in dp1, I felt like he was hinting at some investigative role and trying to tell us who he investigated in case he dies. Strengthener does feel a bit off kilter after that.
Also - can you explain this? I don't see how that hints to an investigative role at all because I can't give any results when I'm dead, so who I investigated doesn't matter. Being an investigative role wouldn't give me more accurate reads lol.

Lunatic
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@whiteflame
There is a dead Miller and I’m the only claimed Cop in this game. My role does certainly seem to have more to it than others that have been claimed/flipped, but unless Pie has been a Cop all along, WyIted’s flip should be a pretty strong consideration in whether you believe my role claim.
Fair, but one of casey's abilities could also be a cop ability. That said does a miller exist for a 1x cop ability? Anyways I acknowledge that the reason for doubting your role is kind of bad to begin with, just that it seems town is pretty powerful with everything claimed so far, plus what we've seen in the grave. But like I said, ceru did say it was a role madness game and mafia could have counters to everything for all we know. 
Lunatic
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@AustinL0926
Also - can you explain this? I don't see how that hints to an investigative role at all because I can't give any results when I'm dead, so who I investigated doesn't matter. Being an investigative role wouldn't give me more accurate reads lol.

"If I die tonight, my legacy is pretty clear, just listen to it, I was killed for a reason."

Seemed like you were trying to say you thought you would be killed because you were softing an investigation role or something, and thought mafia would kill you to prevent you from clearing someone. I mostly skimmed dp1, but I did pick up on that post. If you were strengthener, I just don't really understand what you were trying to accomplish with that post.


Mharman
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@Lunatic
I just noticed I didn’t finish that last post.

Like I get what you’re saying: what happened to scum, displayed as happening to Wylted, including being seen by me.

But I’m not sure if it works that way with a passive role. I didn’t actively target Wylted. So Wylted being swapped with scum may not mean much. I also don’t know how their results are given… for example, your theory requires me to believe they immediately knew what I was. That requires them to have fast results on a day role cop, or a night role cop that they get results from before the have to lock in other night actions of theirs. Or they made an incredible read… which, I don’t know how.

What’s stopping my results from being screwed on some anticlaim bullshit, instead of your theory?
Mharman
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I need to go look at the MU wiki again to see if I can figure how exactly all these damn roles work…
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Fuck it I’m tired. I’ll do that in the morning

Saving my reread for tomorrow as well since I don’t have to go anywhere tomorrow
Mharman
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Wait, does it even matter how my results were screwed up?
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I guess I can’t expect people to be 100% sure I’m telling the truth. Ok I get it now

I still think my results were more likely a result of anticlaim than some bus driver. We’ll see when I go check the wiki
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Last thought: my role is pretty weak for an investigative role. I can see it being paired with a stronger one like Whiteflame.

Thing is, I don’t know if that excludes Casey’s role from being in the setup, nor do I think Casey + me excludes whiteflame.

Casey’s is strong because of the info it delivers but also weak because she didn’t know what it was and has low odds of choosing it on any given night.
Lunatic
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@Mharman
I just noticed I didn’t finish that last post.

Like I get what you’re saying: what happened to scum, displayed as happening to Wylted, including being seen by me.

But I’m not sure if it works that way with a passive role. I didn’t actively target Wylted. So Wylted being swapped with scum may not mean much. I also don’t know how their results are given… for example, your theory requires me to believe they immediately knew what I was. That requires them to have fast results on a day role cop, or a night role cop that they get results from before the have to lock in other night actions of theirs. Or they made an incredible read… which, I don’t know how.

What’s stopping my results from being screwed on some anticlaim bullshit, instead of your theory?
Well first of all what other roles explain the mishap with your results? The only one I can think of is busdriver. But maybe I am missing one
Lunatic
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@Mharman
what do you mean by anti claim what is that Ive never heard that term?
Lunatic
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@Mharman
Wait, does it even matter how my results were screwed up?
Well the alternative to your results being screwed up is you were lying, so I'd say yes, theorizing possibilities to how  your role was impacted should be very important.
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@Lunatic
Kinda glad I can’t resist checking in multiple times before going to bed. 

Anticlaim is that thing Austin talked about early DP1 and there’s a good chance it’s in this game… I still don’t fully understand what could or couldn’t be given to scum team through anticlaim.

As for why this matters, yeah, I forgot about your pov for a sec

Mharman
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Lunatic not knowing anything about anticlaim is crazy.

Townslip? Unless there’s no anticlaim in the game at all.
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Ok I reread Austin’s DP1 post about anticlaim. If anti claim interfered with my results it would indicate that scum punished Wylted’s claim by putting him on my radar somehow
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None of Austin’s descriptions of anticlaim show a way I could have been interfered with. If there’s a way Austin wouldn’t have accounted for, such as faking a visit, that would explain things. I don’t get a bus drive or redirect tho.
Lunatic
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Literally never heard the term anti claim before
Mharman
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Faking a visit falls into the same pitfalls of assumptions that Lunatic’s bus driver theory does 

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@Lunatic
Ok so I checked the wiki and I don’t think that’s how bus driver works. I guess it’s possible that Cerulean has a weird interaction idea tho

I say this because I had a thought:

If miller moves with the scum team, I could explain why Wylted showed on my results. It would implicate Austin heavily.

One thing I don’t like about Austin is how he felt the need to explain the non-consecutive in his role claim
Lunatic
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The Bus Driver is a role that can choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night action performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night.
Bus driver in the wiki works just like I explained though, where it effects actions on a player, rather than actions performed by a player, so it still can be an explanation for your role, just doesnt factor in austins claimed actions 

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@Lunatic
Hm, we’re using two different wikis here but they say the same thing, MS just words it differently than MU. It would mean seeing my role, despite being passive, as an action that can be bus driven despite that I have no targets that could get target swapped.

I guess I passively target myself , so maybe people who target me become targets?