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@FLRW
I mean a large range of sizes. The women can pick the size they like the best.
They have to skip past you to get to the larger size. How did you land in front being tiny?
Atheists that believe no God exists due to no evidence known is a weak basis.
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@Shila
I'm not tiny. I am in the front because I am medium size.
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@Hero1000
" Does this classification of agnostic not contradict how your (false) dichotomy classifies the atheist as someone with a swayed position though? You used:
" answer. "Atheists believe there is no God." must be true, and therefor as a consequence atheists have a belief system. They 'believe' that there is no God."
No, no contradiction. An atheist is not an agnostic. An atheist is swayed into a belief/disbelief. An agnostic is not swayed into either but just does not know what to believe.
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@Stephen
When you don't even know or understand how Jesus was in the old testament, these other passages you won't understand as well and you falsely call them contradictions.
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@Mall
Bull shite.
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@Double_R
Yes you believing in no god makes you the atheist, that's right.
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@Stephen
Oh it's true. You're an atheist, right.
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@Mall
You say it does not contradict your dichotomy yet you do not explain how. You merely reiterate your classification of the atheist and the agnostic without addressing how each interact with the dichotomy you presented as "evidence" for the atheist's "sway"
Nor do you say anything to address why I can't apply your same logic to (your classification of) the agnostic.
Ok, let's take things back from the top.
Pulling teeth but finally got you to agree that one of the statements is false.Atheists believe there is God.(False)Atheists believe there is no God .Atheists believe there is God.(False - Does an atheist believe there is the spirit of God? The answer of no is why this statement is false.)
Could you give an elaboration in regards to this argument as to how it showcases that the atheist has a 'belief', without that elaboration being something that I can use to showcase (off of your same answer of 'No.') that the "agnostic" has a 'belief'?
And, if you provide a nuance as to how the agnostic does not have a belief, can you provide one that I can not use to provide how the atheist does not have a belief?
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@Mall
Oh it's true. You're an atheist, right.
Not sure how I would describe myself . But I have read and studied the bible for over 40 years. ....... and I know you haven't.
That is why you cannot explain away those contradictory verses (of which there are many) .
Would you like to explain away these contradictory verses for us as you often claim to be able to do?
Are these biblical comments true or false?
Jesus either identified himself the night of his arrest or Judas identified Jesus with a kiss. Which is it?
The women spread the word of the empty tomb or they didn't. Which is it?
Not sure how I would describe myself . But I have read and studied the bible for over 40 years. ....... and I know you haven't.That is why you cannot explain away those contradictory verses (of which there are many) .Would you like to explain away these contradictory verses for us as you often claim to be able to do?Are these biblical comments true or false?Jesus either identified himself the night of his arrest or Judas identified Jesus with a kiss. Which is it?The women spread the word of the empty tomb or they didn't. Which is it?
Matthew 26:48-54
Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him. Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
Mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
Took a few seconds to find the verses.
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@Hero1000
Agnostics from my experience have explained themselves to don't know about God. They're asked do they believe in God, they say they don't know, they're undecided.
Atheists after coming into the knowledge of the world have a decision to make on God. The scripture even talks about this activist movement of the godless.
This is why atheism ultimately is not a default position but an active choice to make to reject God and without evidence, choose to believe there is no God .
When you have no evidence for something but accept it to be so anyway, it is a belief.
Think of it this way. There is no evidence for the non existence of the spirit of God. There is no known evidence for the non existence. There is none. So why believe the subject is non existent anyway?
You shouldn't when you remain neutral or agnostic.
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@Stephen
Ok do you believe the spirit of God as mentioned in John 4:24, exists?
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@Mall
Aha but you see. Therin lies the fault in your chain of conclusion. The chains don't link. Once again you do not elaborate at all on the specific argument I asked you to elaborate on, that deals with the false dichotomy you presented, and instead opted to add additional external arguments. Not only do you, once again, fail to support the premise you've attempted to establish at the beginning of our conversation in this topic. But also by expanding upon the scope of this discussion and not limiting yourself to the (false) dichotomy you'd normally fall under due to the line of logic, you allow me to do the same. Especially when you fail to provide reasoning and nuance about (your classification of) the agnostic that I can't use on the Atheist. And additionally you allow me to use my own external counter-arguments to counter your external arguments.
Observe.
Atheists from my experience have explained themselves to not know about God. They're asked do they believe in God, they say they don't know, they're undecided. And this is true by the way, I am not merely mirroring your argument just for the sake of.
As for your statements that describe atheists "come into the knowledge of the world" and about "believing in the non-existence of God." What is your evidence for that? Within the scope of this conversation thus far you have not defended your dichotomy, and otherwise provided no other basis, so your claim currently lies without a basis.
And for the final part "when you remain neutral or agnostic", once again you simply declare your classification of the agnostic without elaboration. Throughout the course of this conversation your whole argument about your classification of the 'agnostic' has been all rhetoric and no substance.
I already presented this during our debate that matches the topic title, but regardless, here it is again.
This challenges your claim that "atheists come into the knowledge of the world" as theism/atheism does not deal with the knowledge axis, it deals with the belief axis.
It additionally challenges your classification of the agnostic as neutral. As the gnostic/agnostic does not deal with the belief axis, it deals with the knowledge axis.
With all that said, before the argument expands any further (to the point that it is less of a topic reply chain and more of a debate), I'll take us back to the start of this conversation. The (false) dichotomy you've presented and hopefully you do not avoid to address it (and mainly how it interacts with your answer regarding the agnostic) this time as the question I'll pose will be straightforward.
Agnostics believe there is God.
Agnostics believe there is no God.
Which of the statements is true and which is false?
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@Mall
Ok do you believe the spirit of God as mentioned in John 4:24, exists?I’m
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Tha5 is how you are expected to believe in God.
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@Mall
Think of it this way. There is no evidence for the non existence of the spirit of God. There is no known evidence for the non existence. There is none. So why believe the subject is non existent anyway?You shouldn't when you remain neutral or agnostic.
The burden of proof’s on existence, or ‘what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?’
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@Reece101
Think of it this way. There is no evidence for the non existence of the spirit of God. There is no known evidence for the non existence. There is none. So why believe the subject is non existent anyway?You shouldn't when you remain neutral or agnostic.The burden of proof’s on existence, or ‘what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?’
Belief in God is universal. Belief in dragons is a known fictional creation.
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@Shila
I’ll steelman you and say you’re talking about the Abrahamic god that’s been around for about 4000 years. Whilst modern humans have been around for about 300,000 years. Unless you’re a Young Earth Creationist. There’s been many other religions alongside/older than the Abrahamic faith with large numbers of followers. No, God is not universal. There’s documented tribes that are/were close to isolated who fell under atheistic (lack belief in gods).
Though i’ll hand it to the Abrahamic faith that they have some good human stories. Even though many of them are copies from other philosophies/religions.
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@Reece101
I’ll steelman you and say you’re talking about the Abrahamic god that’s been around for about 4000 years. Whilst modern humans have been around for about 300,000 years. Unless you’re a Young Earth Creationist. There’s been many other religions alongside/older than the Abrahamic faith with large numbers of followers. No, God is not universal. There’s documented tribes that are/were close to isolated who fell under atheistic (lack belief in gods).Though i’ll hand it to the Abrahamic faith that they have some good human stories. Even though many of them are copies from other philosophies/religions.
Every religion has God as its central figure.God is universal in all religions.
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@Shila
By the way, i think there’s a dragon mentioned in the Bible.
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@Mall
do you believe the spirit of God as mentioned in John 4:24, exists?
And does John actually define and or explain what "spirit of god" actually is?
And while we are on the subject, can you define or explain what "spirit of god" actually is?
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@Hero1000
Do you even understand what I mean when I say atheists come into the knowledge of the world?
The main reason you have trouble understanding is because you don't seek understanding. You settle with first impression interpretations.
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@Mall
I believe no god of the sorts that I mentioned exist, because they can't exist. That is very different from proclaiming to know that we live in a godless universe.Yes you believing in no god makes you the atheist, that's right.
What are you talking about? Are you even reading what I'm typing?
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@Mall
If you believe I don't properly understand what you mean I'll give you the opportunity by asking, what do you mean when you say atheists come into the knowledge of the world?
Additionally even with this, I'll still want an answer to this also.
Agnostics believe there is God.
Agnostics believe there is no God.
Which of the statements is true and which is false?
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@Stephen
So you don't know what a spirit is so you don't know if you believe in one, is that right?
Well hence why you see what you believe are contradictions in scripture. You even struggle with the plain scripture of John 4:24.
Case closed.
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@Double_R
This is what I'm talking about plain and simple. Atheists believe there is no spirit of God period point blank .
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@Hero1000
I can't say any of those statements are true for the agnostic I'm taking about.
As far as atheists, people that learn and are taught things of the world, science, academics, biology, etc., begin to question, receive answers and so forth come to a conclusion and decide how God enters into the secular realm of understanding, they decide to reject there is a God which is different from a theist rejecting that there is not a God.
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@Reece101
The onus is on existence including the existence of non existence.
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@Double_R
What are you talking about? Are you even reading what I'm typing?
You said critical thinking makes you an atheist.
The reason I can't tell you no god exists is because there is no possible way for me to rule out every possibility, I just don't have the kind of access I would need to make that assessment.So at the end of the day what makes me an atheist is that I believe in critical thinking, which when used properly doesn't permit faith as a basis for anything. Critical thinking however, is not as religion.
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@Mall
This is what I'm talking about plain and simple. Atheists believe there is no spirit of God period point blank .
Yes, I understand what's what you just said. The problem is that in this thing we call conversation, the things you say are supposed to be relevant to the points you're responding to.
I just explained to you why your overly simplistic assertion about atheists is wrong. You never bothered to address the point I made and instead just keep repeating you're original assertion. So do you have a response to what I said, Yes or No?
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@Shila
You said critical thinking makes you an atheist.
The use of critical thinking is what made me an atheist, yes.
Not sure if that was intended to make a further point.