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@Double_R
I do. They both have to account for the 4 years in charge.
Question for Trump Supporters (2)
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@Mharman
Then I notice the hyperboles and other statements that you repeatedly misunderstand, like “fight like hell” on Jan 6.This was an obvious hyperbole that has been used many times elsewhere, yet the media wanted us all to believe that the man who told his protestors to be “peaceful and patriotic” and told rioters to cease rioting over Twitter, somehow deliberately incited a whole riot and those words that give us a window into his actual thoughts are just an intentional misdirect. Orange man bad, don’t ask questions, please only take him seriously when it benefits our narrative, and not when it disproves it.
I've discussed this at great length many times before so I'll summarize briefly why this is just nonsense.
- Trump's speech at the ellipse was well over an hour long and about 11,000 words. The three words you cited are the only three words anywhere in his speech suggesting calm. The rest was inciteful. Weighing those three words above the rest is ridiculous.
- The incitement isn't just about Trump's one speech. It took place over two months. The speech was just the culmination.
- The very idea of them "peacefully making their voices heard" is itself absurd. He's literally telling them that their voices are being stolen by the evil people at the Capitol who don't care about their voice. In no sane mind would the remedy for that be to go yell really loud.
- Even then, if Trump had actually done what he was supposed to do as the riots were taking place we could have all accepted his actions to that point as merely irresponsible. Instead his doing nothing and hiding in the WH dining room watching on tv as the US Capitol was under attack leaves no question as to what his intentions were.
So when Trump told them to fight like hell, I don't hear that literally because I can't detect hyperbole, I hear that because it's the only interpretation that makes sense when you put his words into their full context.
And also, the same argument cuts both ways. You guys excuse away every terrible thing he says as hyperbole, but when he uses three good words in his speech all of a sudden now we have to take him literally. Not exactly solid.
It is here where the problem reveals itself: The leftoid media, in promoting their “orangemanbad” narrative, has taught a whole host of midwits to prioritize bad faith interpretations of Trump’s words, as opposed to noticing the hyperbole and adopting a more realistic approach to interpreting Trump…
I agree here is the problem, but you blame the wrong media side.
You see here's the thing about interpreting any politician (and yes, Trump is absolutely a politician); when they give conflicting messages it is generally safe to assume the message that reveals a flaw within them is real and the message that builds them up into a super hero is false. No smart person pretends to be stupid. No informed person pretends to be ignorant. No good well intentioned person pretends to be a total asshole. But we all know the reverse does it all the time.
The problem with Trump supporters is that you guys are backwards. Everytime Trump says something stupid or shows himself to be heinous you guys pretend it's all for show. Meanwhile when he pretends to be some kind of saint you seem to think that's when he's showing us who he really is. No human being works this way, and no rationally thinking person would interpret someone in this way.
I am definitely voting for Trump this November.
So do you dispute that Trump is an authoritarian fascist, or are you just ok with voting for one?
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@Greyparrot
So do you dispute that Trump is an authoritarian fascist, or are you just ok with voting for one?
If we burn. You burn with us.
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@Double_R
The very idea of them "peacefully making their voices heard" is itself absurd. He's literally telling them that their voices are being stolen by the evil people at the Capitol who don't care about their voice.
He never blamed congress as a whole for the voter fraud.
No smart person pretends to be stupid. No informed person pretends to be ignorant. No good well intentioned person pretends to be a total asshole. But we all know the reverse does it all the time.
Those of us with enough information and intelligence know all three of those things can and do happen.
Is this the last ditch effort to increase Harris' chances of winning the election? Lol
People vote for Trump because he's the only viable choice to fix the fuck-ups of the Biden administration, obviously based on what he did in his first term and not if he lies or not. Voting for Kamala, on the other side, would be a vote for the continuation of the current disaster, or even worse. That is more evident given the last talk Biden and Obama had at Ethel Kennedy's funeral. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13971075/What-Biden-Obama-said-intense-moment-Ethel-Kennedys-funeral.html
The die is cast, there's no going back I'm afraid.
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@Savant
Double standards are how people support their candidate.
Can't argue that there are a lot of hypocrites out the but it's kind of the point of these conversations to call it out with the idea that if we're shown to be applying different standards to different candidates that we correct ourselves.
Fat chance anyone here including myself will actually change their position I know but doesn't change the point. Show my I'm applying a double standard and I'll adjust, I just don't believe I am.
no one holds Trump to that standard, not even closePlenty of Democrats do.
Not really. The only reason democrats treat him as someone whose words should be taken seriously is because he's running for president and because that's how we're supposed to treat someone running to be the most powerful man on earth. But they understand full well what really he is.
Trump voters are the ones I'm trying to figure out, because they clearly don't hold him to that standard and yet think he's fit to be the president again. That seems to me like a massive contradiction and I've yet to hear any serious attempt to square it. And if someone were to offer that this just isn't a standard that should be applied to the president (which would be absurd) the problem is that Kamala is being held to it so it doesn't resolve the issue.
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@Swagnarok
He might reinstate Schedule F, which is understandably controversial unlike the rest of the "Project 2025" scaremongering rhetoric, but I can understand why he'd want this after four years of rogue executive branch bureaucrats working nonstop to sabotage and humiliate him
You started off by arguing that Trump is a safe bet because he's been president for four years and none of the crazy things he said he was going to do materialized, but then you acknowledge that he had people all throughout the government working to ensure he didn't do the things he wanted. How do you not see the contradiction in that?
First off all let's just set aside that we already saw the United States Capitol attacked while the president sat around for 3 hours watching it on TV as the military response was stalled waiting for his authorization to act, until they eventually did so without it. Instead let's just pretend that Trump's four years were normal.
Anyone who's paid attention to politics over the past decade can easily see this is way, way different. Trump is not the same person he was 8 years ago. 2016 Trump had no idea what he was doing so he surrounded himself with people that (mostly) did. That Trump thought he could ride into Washington a star and ride out a hero in front of parades of adoring fans that would lobby to put his face on Mt Rushmore. 2024 Trump is nothing like this.
2024 Trump is angry, bitter, and out for revenge. 2016 Trump campaigned as a man who clearly understood that he had to win over voters with ideas to solve their problems. 2024 Trump isn't even pretending to care about that. 2024 Trump talks openly about using the DOJ and military as a weapon against his political opponents and anyone he considers disloyal to him.
2024 Trump understands what went wrong and knows how to ensure that doesn't happen again. 2016 Trump felt the pressure to respect political norms, like appointing people who were qualified. 2024 Trump will appoint only people who are sycophants, in fact that will be the only qualification he cares about.
2024 Trump will not turn to outside lawyers to commit his crimes, this Trump knows now thanks to the supreme court that any conversations he has with his own agencies like the DOJ or the military are "not subject to judicial review" regardless of how brazenly he tells them to do something illegal. So he can easily tell them to commit crimes and then pardon them afterward. There's literally no legal recourse according to the new rule book which he is well aware of.
2024 is not 2016. Any claim that it is only demonstrates ignorance or willful blindness.
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@Greyparrot
They both have to account for the 4 years in charge.
What they have to account for are their actions and the decisions that they made. They do not have to account for the circumstances that they had nothing to do with. You know this which is why you like every Trump supporter pretends 2020 didn't happen.
Trump inherited an economy that had been growing for 7 straight years, Biden inherited a complete mess that just saw a wrecking ball taken to the global supply chain. Start from there, then tell me about their 4 years.
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@Double_R
They do not have to account for the circumstances that they had nothing to do with.
False. Excuses for failing to deal with circumstances are the 3rd to last resort of a cultist.
This is why Kamala tanked so hard with the undecided voter after the Fox interview. Every question about dealing with multiple circumstances the past 4 years was met with the same generic Orangeman bad answer in many different flavors. That kind of dodging and projection plays well with her cult base, but not normal people.
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@IlDiavolo
Is this the last ditch effort to increase Harris' chances of winning the election? LolPeople vote for Trump because he's the only viable choice to fix the fuck-ups of the Biden administration, obviously based on what he did in his first term and not if he lies or not. Voting for Kamala, on the other side, would be a vote for the continuation of the current disaster, or even worse. That is more evident given the last talk Biden and Obama had at Ethel Kennedy's funeral. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13971075/What-Biden-Obama-said-intense-moment-Ethel-Kennedys-funeral.htmlThe die is cast, there's no going back I'm afraid.
Their hatred for Trump is so bad that they literally disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of their voters to install Kamala. “But muh democracy”
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@Greyparrot
This is why Kamala tanked so hard with the undecided voter after the Fox interview. Every question about dealing with multiple circumstances the past 4 years was met with the same generic Orangeman bad answer in many different flavors. That kind of dodging and projection plays well with her cult base, but not normal people.
My favorite was “I will follow the law.” As if she followed the law by letting millions of people into the country
This is why Kamala tanked so hard with the undecided voter after the Fox interview. Every question about dealing with multiple circumstances the past 4 years was met with the same generic Orangeman bad answer in many different flavors. That kind of dodging and projection plays well with her cult base, but not normal people.
My favorite was “I will follow the law.” As if she followed the law by letting millions of people into the country
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@Double_R
Trump voters are the ones I'm trying to figure out, because they clearly don't hold him to that standard and yet think he's fit to be the president again. That seems to me like a massive contradiction and I've yet to hear any serious attempt to square it.
It's a worthy attempt to try and understand the other side, but I think the explanation is simpler: Trump supporter's like Trump's personality/policies and don't like Kamala's personality/policies. Trump overpromises a lot, but they still prefer what he did in office to what Biden did in office, and that's their metric for measuring the candidates. And once people have figured out who they want in office, it becomes easy to cherry-pick parts of their personality to further justify it. In that way, they're not too different from other political factions (even though Trump insists that he's not a politician or whatever).
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@Double_R
2024 Trump is angry, bitter, and out for revenge. 2016 Trump campaigned as a man who clearly understood that he had to win over voters with ideas to solve their problems. 2024 Trump isn't even pretending to care about that. 2024 Trump talks openly about using the DOJ and military as a weapon against his political opponents and anyone he considers disloyal to him.2024 Trump understands what went wrong and knows how to ensure that doesn't happen again. 2016 Trump felt the pressure to respect political norms, like appointing people who were qualified. 2024 Trump will appoint only people who are sycophants, in fact that will be the only qualification he cares about.2024 Trump will not turn to outside lawyers to commit his crimes, this Trump knows now thanks to the supreme court that any conversations he has with his own agencies like the DOJ or the military are "not subject to judicial review" regardless of how brazenly he tells them to do something illegal. So he can easily tell them to commit crimes and then pardon them afterward. There's literally no legal recourse according to the new rule book which he is well aware of.2024 is not 2016. Any claim that it is only demonstrates ignorance or willful blindness.
You're pumping me up! Thanks for the whitepill.
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@Double_R
You started off by arguing that Trump is a safe bet because he's been president for four years and none of the crazy things he said he was going to do materialized, but then you acknowledge that he had people all throughout the government working to ensure he didn't do the things he wanted. How do you not see the contradiction in that?
There is no contradiction here. You're assuming that Trump issued secret policy initiatives that avoided leaving a publicly accessible record trail, and that these were just as quietly thwarted by thankless bureaucrats. But the more wacky things that Trump did, in fact, try to do (e.g. the "Muslim ban") he did out in the open by executive order. He was proud of what he was doing and wanted his Republican base to know that he'd done it.
Furthermore, we know that a lot of the insubordination that happened under his administration was people going to the press with things Trump allegedly said in confidence, like the "shithole countries" remark about Haiti. This wasn't a case of Trump saying "I want the US to annex Haiti, but we'll do it secretly and gradually over the course of two years mwahahaha" and then someone blowing the whistle to frustrate these plans and save Haiti. There really was no purpose to telling people Trump said that other than to humiliate him. If your boss tells you to do something illegal, then there's a fair case to be made that you should disobey him and do what you can to keep other employees from complying in your stead. But it's not your job to try to oust your boss from his position because you personally dislike him or believe him unfit for the job. Nor was it theirs. It's pretty clear their motives were partisan.
Anyone who's paid attention to politics over the past decade can easily see this is way, way different. Trump is not the same person he was 8 years ago. 2016 Trump had no idea what he was doing so he surrounded himself with people that (mostly) did. That Trump thought he could ride into Washington a star and ride out a hero in front of parades of adoring fans that would lobby to put his face on Mt Rushmore. 2024 Trump is nothing like this.2024 Trump is angry, bitter, and out for revenge.
Speculation. I remember how, back in 2016, he debated Hillary and openly threatened to put her in jail for the e-mail whatever. The second he won, he forgot all about that. It was almost as if he didn't really care, and rather he played into a narrative of his opponents being corrupt to boost his chances at the polls.
And I'll say this: as a Trump supporter, I too am angry, bitter, and out for revenge. But the name of that revenge is, quite simply, getting Trump re-elected. That act in itself is enough. Trump doesn't have to do anything. He can be a normal, boring Republican president. Just the fact that he's back in the White House and there's nothing they can do to stop him from being there would satisfy me. And to the extent that Trump genuinely is angry, that may also be true for him. As the old saying goes, "A life well lived is the best revenge". Or in this case, a successful career in the face of haters who would try to disqualify you from having it.
2024 Trump understands what went wrong and knows how to ensure that doesn't happen again. 2016 Trump felt the pressure to respect political norms, like appointing people who were qualified. 2024 Trump will appoint only people who are sycophants, in fact that will be the only qualification he cares about.
So Trump simultaneously was a dictator wannabe and "felt the pressure to respect political norms" in his first term?
2024 Trump will not turn to outside lawyers to commit his crimes, this Trump knows now thanks to the supreme court that any conversations he has with his own agencies like the DOJ or the military are "not subject to judicial review" regardless of how brazenly he tells them to do something illegal.
I take it you're once again misrepresenting what that one SCOTUS ruling says?
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@Swagnarok
I take it you're once again misrepresenting what that one SCOTUS ruling says?
Even if the misrepresentation was true, it's not like the SCOTUS said..."OMG Congress can now no longer impeach the president for official acts because we said so...."
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@Greyparrot
Excuses for failing to deal with circumstances...
Let me guess... Inflation? Please enlighten me; what actions did Joe Biden fail to take that Donald Trump would have taken which would have made a significant difference?
That kind of dodging and projection plays well with her cult base, but not normal people.
Oh right right right. Dodging, like answering a question about childcare by talking about tariffs. Or answering a question about breaking up Google by talking about the justice department suing Virginia over it's voter rolls. And let's not forget concepts of a healthcare plan after years of telling us he'd be releasing his big beautiful new plan in two weeks.
Projection, like claiming Kamala Harris won't take any tough questions as he continues to cower away from another debate. Like claiming the Biden administration is withholding disaster aid from republican areas only for us to later learn that's exactly what he tried to do in California until his own aids had to pull out a map of orange county to show Trump the people in the impacted zone voted for him. Or how about Trump claiming Kamala Harris needs to take a cognitive test cause she's showing signs of dementia.
To sit here and pretend anyone who actually cares about dodging questions and projection should be turned off by Kamala Harris is insultingly stupid. Go gaslight someone else.
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@Double_R
Go gaslight someone else.
Lol, everyone saw the interview. It was 80% Orangemanbad. Stop denying reality.
Swing state voters are so done with Orangemanbad as a governing policy for the left. They refuse 4 more years of it.
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@ILikePie5
Their hatred for Trump is so bad that they literally disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of their voters to install Kamala. “But muh democracy”
Democracy is a system of government where the people choose their own leaders. What's not part of democracy is where the leader is forced by the people to lead against their will.
Joe Biden stepped aside. That was his choice and his choice alone. Once he stepped aside there was no process in place nor time for a new primary vote, that's where the party rules take over and those rules were followed precisely. Moreover, the outcome at that point which was most aligned with democracy would be the candidate who was on the ballot along with Joe Biden that the people had already voted for, and that's exactly who was "installed".
It couldn't have been handled by the Democratic party better. This is a stupid argument, you need to find a new one.
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@Double_R
It couldn't have been handled by the Democratic party better. This is a stupid argument, you need to find a new one.
I wonder if you will be this loyal to your party after Kamala loses in November when nearly any other candidate would have easily beaten her in a contested open convention. (also easily beating the Orangeman as well)
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@Double_R
If No (the typical MAGA response), then can you please explain how you square your belief that someone whose words are not to be taken seriously can be fit for the most serious job on earth?
Because to them, politics is a joke; it's a team sport.
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@Double_R
To take anybody words seriously is going by followed actions to those words .
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@Double_R
Joe Biden stepped aside. That was his choice and his choice alone.
RFK stepped aside. Democrats sued to keep him on the ballot.
Once he stepped aside there was no process in place nor time for a new primary vote, that's where the party rules take over and those rules were followed precisely.
That’s not true at all. They could’ve had an open convention, but they didn’t.
Moreover, the outcome at that point which was most aligned with democracy would be the candidate who was on the ballot along with Joe Biden that the people had already voted for, and that's exactly who was "installed".
They didn’t vote for her to be President. They voted for her to be Vice President. Two different things.
It couldn't have been handled by the Democratic party better. This is a stupid argument, you need to find a new one.
Democratic party elites
Fixed it for you
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@Savant
It's a worthy attempt to try and understand the other side, but I think the explanation is simpler: Trump supporter's like Trump's personality/policies and don't like Kamala's personality/policies. Trump overpromises a lot, but they still prefer what he did in office to what Biden did in office, and that's their metric for measuring the candidates. And once people have figured out who they want in office, it becomes easy to cherry-pick parts of their personality to further justify it. In that way, they're not too different from other political factions (even though Trump insists that he's not a politician or whatever).
Exactly. It’s also telling that Biden/Harris kept Trump’s tariffs after railing on them for years
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@Savant
It's a worthy attempt to try and understand the other side, but I think the explanation is simpler: Trump supporter's like Trump's personality/policies and don't like Kamala's personality/policies.
Some like his policies but let's be real, the overwhelming majority of Trump voters couldn't name a single Trump policy. Hell Trump can barely name a single Trump policy, that's why he spends his rallies talking about Hannibal Lector and swaying to music for 38 minutes. No one really cares about that stuff.
The personality part is the very thing I'm questioning, so we're back to the OP.
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@ILikePie5
@Double_R
the overwhelming majority of Trump voters couldn't name a single Trump policy.
False assumption. The chants at his rallies literally say "build that wall," "send em back," and "drill baby drill" among other policies. He riffs about silly stuff and dances to silly playlists mostly because the people really just don't wanna leave.
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@Double_R
The personality part is the very thing I'm questioning
Yeah, but I don't think the parts that appeal to Trump supporters are what you would consider "presidential." They like that he insults people on the other side and even on the Republican side. They like that he promises to build a wall even if he doesn't give the logistics of that.
Does that make him fit for the most serious job on earth? Well, there's a part of Trump's base that would rather have someone unprofessional, because it means that he's taking shots at "the system." Basically, if the media and the Democrats hate him, he must be doing something right. Whether or not he can actually "make China pay" or "make Mexico pay," they like that someone says it. That's the personality part.
The policy part is that he's not a Democrat.
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@Swagnarok
You're assuming that Trump issued secret policy initiatives that avoided leaving a publicly accessible record trail, and that these were just as quietly thwarted by thankless bureaucrats.
Read the "Anonymous" op eds whose author we now know is Myles Taylor. He explains it in pretty good detail.
But it's not your job to try to oust your boss from his position because you personally dislike him or believe him unfit for the job. Nor was it theirs. It's pretty clear their motives were partisan.
It's a moral and ethical obligation for anyone who has swarn an oath to protect and defend the constitution that they warm the public when they see such troubling behavior from the commander in chief. If you want to call that partisan then sure, ok. Strange that all of these partisans were appointed by Trump himself.
back in 2016, he debated Hillary and openly threatened to put her in jail for the e-mail whatever. The second he won, he forgot all about that.
Just the fact that he's back in the White House and there's nothing they can do to stop him from being there would satisfy me. And to the extent that Trump genuinely is angry, that may also be true for him.
It could very well be. As much of a Trump alarmist as I have been and continue to be I acknowledge that completely. That doesn't justify trusting him again with the presidency, no rational person would do so on that basis. If someone was charged with child molestation but then those charges were later dropped, that doesn't mean you'd let them baby sit your kids.
So Trump simultaneously was a dictator wannabe and "felt the pressure to respect political norms" in his first term?
No, you didn't read. 2016 Trump felt that pressure, because 2016 Trump didn't know what the hell he was doing and had to lean on his aides to tell him what he could or couldn't do. 2024 Trump has figured out that all he has to do is surround himself with sycophantic yes men and he'll get whatever he wants. And unlike in 2016, the political climate has changed dramatically. Yes men such as this were few and far between back then, but after 8 years of Trump's erosion of our democracy and sense of political norms there is no shortage of such people anymore.
I take it you're once again misrepresenting what that one SCOTUS ruling says?
You are more than welcome to show me what I'm getting wrong. So far no one else has:
I've got a question for Trumpers:
Was the January 6th "prostest" peaceful?
Just a refresher if you need it:
Next question: Does Donald Trump respect American Democracy?
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@Owen_T
I've got a question for Trumpers:Was the January 6th "prostest" peaceful?Just a refresher if you need it:Next question: Does Donald Trump respect American Democracy?
What, you don't think it was a "day of love".