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@Cerulean
VTL Cerulean
Mayday Mafia DP2
Posts
Read-only
Total:
317
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@whiteflame
You gave a nice list of games that conveniently left out the last one where I was scum and VTNL'd in the end
I don't know off the top of my head what game that was, but if you were scum and VTNL'ed that proves my point doesn't it? Considering my argument is that "town WF wouldn't have likely opted to VTNL".
What I don't understand about this line of argumentation is that it applies both ways. Town has the ability to choose one of three numbers. Regardless of who is scum and whether they were on the lynch, one of those numbers leads to the consequence of town being given information about them. So, when you say there's a consequence for staying on the lynch, I agree... insofar as, if there had been two scum on the lynch, the majority would have given more information to town.
This is precisely why it's weird that the two most active posters in the game were the one's not participating on the lynch, yet also voting for 2 scum being on the lynch... If they know there is the consequence of information, town gets said information, it narrows down the POE largely and basically confirms anyone not on the wagon. I can see why scum knowing this would want to avoid being on the wagon at all costs. Now the point cerulean made was a good one that we overlooked. We could have and should have forced everyone into choosing one option or the other, if we got good information for example and we all voted 2, then we would know that 2 scum were on the lynch, and vice versa, if no useful info was given, everyone on the lynch would be confirmed. Hindsight is 20/20. But in my mind it still kind of worked out because the way things played out did indicate a couple of people likely being scum either way. I imagine you and pie didn't think anyone would make much of this, and I can see why you would be frustrated to be caught by this as scum, because the mod mechanic seems to have forced your hand.. I agree it is kind of a bastard mechanic and definitely seems to favor town.
Again, you cut me off before I could join any wagon when I actively promised I would make a decision at a specific appointed time. Cerulean pointed it out, too. The fact that you actively prevented me from doing so, with full knowledge of when I'd be back, doesn't make me sus. I'm not framing you as quick hammering, I'm stating that you literally didn't give me a chance to post despite there being time to do so and my stating I would be back to post. Quick or not, your decision prevented me from posting, and now you're claiming that my not posting makes me sus.
1. 3 days is plenty of time to have made your lynch intentions clear, especially if you knew you'd be busy near EOD.
2. It's not just the fact that you didn't vote, its the fact that you didn't vote and pie didn't vote, and then you both conveniently chose the answer of two scum being on the wagon. If you are both scum you know that is going to sabotage results, combined with a townies who are more than likely going to guess that as well.
If you want to sus me for not being with you on the Owen lynch, go ahead. I'm sure people would love to know why my not being on that mislynch makes me scummy. I didn't say that I townread Owen.
Nah you actually waffled on him a lot, and were one of the primary reasons pressure started on him to begin with despite the fact that you said at one time you wouldn't be lynching him. It was almost as if you knew or highly suspected he'd get lynched and hoped that line would exonerate you and give you town cred.
I did say that his confirmable role was the only one on the table and he shouldn't have been eliminated DP1 without at least demonstrating it. I get that we just played a game where a confirmable role was town, that does not mean we should assume a confirmable role is scum.
All the last game proves is that it's a complete null tell. Which is should be. Too many townies think role confirmation is affiliation confirmation, last game was a good lesson against that. Letting owen prove his role wouldn't have accomplished much of anything. I thought he was town for his behavior though, weird you seem to mostly town read him for his role.
If you want to sus me for wanting to no lynch over lynching Owen, something I literally did last game as town for similar reasons, then, please, explain how that works. I don't particularly care if you think it's anti-town. It's literally in my most recent town meta.
Yeah but doing that had a negative impact on the game, as the primary lynch target was moozer before the no lynch was establised. Imagine if we had lost our mafia JOAT dp1. part of the reason austin was so pissed off. I think you would have learned that as town from that game.
As for Pie, I'm not making excuses for him and I don't know why you'd ask me to.
Well you are making excuses for yourself not being active, and blaming me for your lack of participation on the lynch. What about pie? He doesn't have any excuse for not voting, and he ALWAYS opts for lynching and he also stated he would lynch a miller if there was no alternative. He was there all day phase, even posting on the last page, and never voted. I find it interesting you don't find him scummy. Just as you were aligning views on moozer all game with him, it's another indicator that you are potentially partnered that you guys don't seem to be considering the other as scum at all, and both are behaving anti-town in similar ways. That you don't have an opinion on pie doing this is kind of baffling.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it: I made clear where I wanted votes to go with my reads. When I made a push on him early, you scumread me for it. When I took off the vote, stated that he was my preferred lynch for the DP (recognizing that it was not a firm read isn't waffling, and the post ended with me saying "So, yes, Moozer is my choice among these four" - again, weird that you're leaving pieces out), and then went away for a little over an hour, you're right that I had not yet applied my vote to him again.
Again you unvoted him on page 5 out of 17, yet are stating you had intentions to lynch him the whole game, and were prepared to when you weren't on him for 2/3rds of the day phase. You acting like you had no time to make a push on him makes no sense. and again, just like with owen, you waffled a bit with him, even if you were mostly scum reading him, it's not like it was obvious you were going to try and get a moozer wagon going again in 30 minutes of the day phase left. Do you think you would have even been successful with that much time left and 4 votes on Owen?
Name a recent game where I have pursued you this hard as scum. I'll wait.Chess Mafia. People are welcome to reread DP2.
I already brought up chess mafia, and this isn't a good example because I wasn't "pursuing" you, I was just questioning your logic about making grand conclusions from mod answers. This is a game I am actively pushing and scum reading you. That instance was not. Bad example if your trying to disprove my point.
Beyond that, it's just very strange to read some of your responses. You voted me first thing in this DP after I made a negative post about you.
I was literally waiting all night to bring this argument up, I didn't even read your initial posts when I outlined my FOS on you. Your read on me was irrelevant to my scum read of you, and your and pies vote of two scum was largely why I voted 0 scum after you guys posted that.
If that's not an OMGUS, I don't know what is (note: I haven't put a vote on you yet, and I've said my vote is going elsewhere, so where's my OMGUS again?)
What... Bro if I was already scum reading you first, and you scum read me second you are the OMGUS'er not me lol
Pointing out you haven't trusted me from the start doesn't change that.
It literally means that. Yes.
Pointing out that your softclaim somehow makes you town just because it was a pseudo-CC is a minor point in your favor, but there's plenty else that pushes me the other way.
Like what the fact that I am scumreading you? AKA OMGUS lol. And that I was a part of a mislynch that I thought was town. Weak sauce argument. I chose information over no information after multiple people have been harping and making the age old argument about why lynching dp1 is always better than no lynching. I don't regret that decision and would make it again knowing how owen would flip.
TBH, I don't know why you claimed, but I'd read it as trying to get towncred.
Like I said mafia had likely already guessed my role at this point. And you were literally asking for my role, but now me claiming is trying to get town cred lol. Again I didn't have to claim a third role prevention role for no reason, and you know I am capable of a better claim than that, and it lines up with why I thought moozer was town. Ascetic isn't a role you claim to get town cred lol. Inferring otherwise just means you think I would make a dumb decision as mafia. I think we both know I could come up with better than that.
I backed off Moozer after he claimed his legacy role and puzzled over it for a while (I literally stated my reasoning here), but sure, go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back for drawing attention away from him.
Or you manufactured a reason to get off a lynch that was starting to make both you and pie look scummy. Who knows!? I think I do.
You've directly said multiple times that part of the reason you're sussing me is that I didn't post a vote. And why yes, I did actually provide substantial reasoning for why I was sussing Moozer well before the end of the DP. Just because it was written with uncertainty doesn't mean it wasn't made at that time.
I say that in response to you trying to claim your intentions on who you wanted to lynch were super clear despite not having a case or a vote on someone. Do you write a case against someone you want to lynch with uncertainty?
Dude, people have pushed me for a claim in DP2 plenty, and I've given it as both town and scum. Where are you getting this? How is this new?
The last few games I have watched you play as scum, I feel it's just been a one sided domination where no one suspects you. Which is a compliment to your skill whether you want to think of it as one or not. Either way I am pushing you into deep waters and new territory as scum in a way others haven't, which is why this reaction is new.
I'm sure you'll have plenty of responses. I could see a world in which you do all this and are town. That being said, there's so much out of context quoting here. You've taken to pointing out that I'm simultaneously so good at being scum that I can't be found out while stating all the ways that my behavior is scummy.
If I didn't think you could be found out I wouldn't be trying. Just because your good at being scum and smart, doesn't mean you wont ever get caught.
You keep pointing to aspects of my behavior you think are scummy while ignoring the ways they clearly don't apply. I don't know if that's scummy, but it's weird and it's setting me off.
Game aside, don't let it effect you too bad. I do think your scum, but who knows maybe I am wrong and just super tunnel vision. Life goes on either way and we will play again with a fresh start after this. It's not a big deal. If I am setting you off so much you don't have to reply. I just can't let someone I think is scum get the last word, and I happen to have time to respond to lengthy posts right now, so I'll keep it going as long as you do.
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@Lunatic
I'm so tired of this argument. If you somehow still think I'm scum with no other claimed alignment-investigative roles on the table and you're not sussing Earth, then I sincerely don't know what to tell you. At this point, it looks like you're banking on Cerulean to be the Cop as a means to explain this, so I guess we'll wait to see if he CC's me.
Only thing I'll correct:
You gave a nice list of games that conveniently left out the last one where I was scum and VTNL'd in the end
I meant to say "where I was town", which was last game.
VTL Moozer
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@ILikePie5
Is your Legacy role that great that you will spam votes?
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@Earth
Unvote
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@Earth
VTL Moozer
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@Earth
Is your Legacy role that great that you will spam votes?
Who said anything about Pie's legacy? He's not dead.
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@Earth
Is your Legacy role that great that you will spam votes?
Seems more like a method of communication to me.
Vote count 2.5:
whiteflame (2/4): Banana, Luna
Cerulean (1/4): Earth
Moozer (1/4): Pie
About 32 hours remain in the day.
Note: no votes on Casey will be counted.
A shortlist of some articles you should read RIGHT MEOW:A Shot in the Dark: Korean Airlines Flight 007Insanity in the Air: Pakistan International Airlines Flight 8303Warnings Unheard, Warnings Unheeded: 2019 Alaska Mid-air CollisionAlone in the Inferno: UPS Airlines Flight 6 (If you're only going to read one, READ THIS ONE)A Lonely and Courageous Action: BOAC Flight 712
We have about half the DP left. If nobody claims an investigation role, I'm going to buy WF claim. Lunatic is going hard after WF, but it would be really silly if he is a cop or whatever and isn't claiming for whatever reason.
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@iamanabanana
I haven’t seen you post in a while, certainly not since I claimed. If you’re still sussing me at this point (note that Earth is a claimed Miller, which strongly suggests the existence of some role that investigates for alignment), I’d like to know why.
Also, putting this out there generally, but I don’t want this DP coming down to the wire. We may not have much in the way of investigative information, but there is enough to start piecing things together and people should be giving their reads so we can start to coalesce around an option or two.
Unvote. vtl Cerulean
Whiteflame has claimed, I don't know enough about dreamer to know if that is a a strong claim or not but at this point we should probably get the rest of the claims.
Okay, I went back to re-read the end of DP1. I will say that Pie turned from not considering an Owen lynch to saying it was between him and Moozer pretty quickly, and it was right about the time that an Owen lynch seemed to be getting pretty likely. He also was quick to push back against me when I expressed some serious second thoughts about voting for him, yet still did not cast a vote himself. It would also be very convenient for him as scum to get Owen killed DP1 before he could turn anyone into a Rolestopper. Pie is also one who I can see pretending to be silenced or even actually silencing himself, and his reads feel like they've kind of been all over the place today. That's part of what made me sus of him.
That being said, I'm also going to take a step back because I don't want to deathtunnel here. WF/Earth being the scum team for a third time is a (very funny) possibility that I can't ignore completely, but at the same time, there's no reason to lynch WF today unless Cerulean CCs WF imo. Banana is also solid town imo. So that leaves four people in my eyes: Cerulean, Lunatic, Moozer, and Pie. I already mentioned my thoughts on Pie. As far as Lunatic goes, I'm not too sure on how to read him. Behaviorally speaking, he's definitely acting much more aggressively than last game. I could see his argument with WF being a town v town fight.
Moozer is an interesting case. His justification is a bit weak, Strengthener is a somewhat scummy claim, and he hasn't been very active this DP. Looking back through his posts last game, he said very little and didn't really push anyone at all until the late game. Here, he has at least been somewhat active in trying to push Luna DP1, which is something. Worth noting is that, regardless of what lies have been told so far, he did, in fact, visit Pie last night, and that's interesting because scum roles tend to not be the kind that you'd use on your partners, which suggests that Pie and Moozer are not both scum. However, there are still exceptions such as Lawyer, so keep that in mind.
And then there's Cerulean. I'll be honest, I'm not as convinced that he's town as everyone else seems to be. For one, I haven't seen any scum games of his to compare himself to. For another, it feels like he's been much less active in this game than VV. That all being said, he hasn't actually given me any particular reason to scumread him, and his posts have actually been substantial and meaningful for the most part, so I don't think he's likely to be scum at this point.
Thus, if I could vote today, I would vote for one of Lunatic, Pie, and Moozer.
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@whiteflame
VTL Moozer
unvote
VTL Banana
unvote
VTL Earth
unvote
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@ILikePie5
I take that to mean that your PoE pool is:
Moozer
Banana
Earth
If I'm correct, VTL me and unvote.
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@whiteflame
VTL Whiteflame
unvote
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@ILikePie5
Alright, got it.
Is Pie serious? Banana is Town and I am Miller. Moozer is in my scum pile, but does Pie think Banana was able to fake that one fake cc gambit?
As for my position, I'm not fully dismissing Banana at this point, but I also don't think that she would claim RB in the way she did as scum. We haven't seen her play scum before, but that would be a pretty brazen tactic. Maybe I'm wrong, but for now at least, she's not obviously in my PoE. I'd say the same is true of Earth. The early Miller claim still has me townreading him a bit. I guess he could have guessed at the existence of an alignment investigative role (they are common and this game almost seems to invite both such a role and a tracker role, given the nature of incidents like this), but I still think it's riskier than I'd normally see from him. He's at least not an obvious choice for me, in the same vein as Banana.
That leaves Pie, Cerulean, Moozer and Luna. Cerulean is a bit of a gutread at this point, since I don't think he'd go all-out trying to pursue Owen that hard if he was scum and knew suspicion would fall back on him. I'd like to see his claim since he's the only unclaimed player in my PoE pool who can talk.
I've already given my two cents on both Moozer and Luna, neither of whom have really changed for me.
...but I'm rethinking Pie a bit. I've largely read him as behaviorally town, but something keeps bugging me. This is what was said of Casey in the OP:
Additional Information:Casey may post today, but not vote. They will be flipped at the end of the day.
I realize this was due to a different role (the Tree Stump). I realize that it activated after Casey was killed, so Austin had to notify us, otherwise it wouldn't make basic sense why Casey could still post after being NK'd. That being said, it's a posted restriction on what Casey can do. It's a mod confirmation that Casey can post, but not vote.
So... where's the additional information about Pie not being able to post and only able to vote? I've seen several iterations of a Silencer role. I know that some of them don't alert town that the person is Silenced, but those usually come with the caveat that the target has a limited number of posts available, otherwise the whole purpose of leaving town in the dark and getting a potential lynch out of the gambit is basically gone. I've also seen other games where it was announced publicly, under which circumstance it makes more sense that more posts would be allowed. I'm not sure how much we should rely on a lack of mod confirmation since the circumstances are clearly different, but I'm also not prepared to take Pie out of my PoE right now.
I also generally don't like these reads. This isn't the first time he's indicated that he's got Earth and Banana in his PoE, and while neither of them is solid town at this point, I think they have more than anyone else to shift them in the town pile (see above). I'm scumreading Moozer too, but I don't get these.
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@whiteflame
Now that you mention it, Pie was silenced before. Let me try to find the game.
WF was Silencer in Middle School Mafia and silenced Pie. Moozer made an announcement on the OP. If Austin made a post for Casey, I would think he would make a similar statement for Pie.
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@Earth
I've found three games that used a Silencer.
You've mentioned Middle School Mafia where I had it as scum, where Moozer did announce it.
The Time Travel/Rants Mafia had one on town with JoeBob, but it was overwritten NP1 and wasn't used.
Then there was the Clash of Clans Mafia game where, again, I had it as scum. It was not announced.
As for whether Austin would announce it, I'm still puzzling over that, but my inclination now is to agree with you that Austin wouldn't treat the two roles (Tree Stump and Silencer) this differently just because one requires the player to be dead for it to factor.
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@whiteflame
Then there was the Clash of Clans Mafia game where, again, I had it as scum. It was not announced.
Actually, we ended up not using the Silencer at all in that game, remember? The plan was for you to pretend to be silenced by Barney. So we only have one game with a Silencer in recent memory to go off of. That being said, I agree that it's strange that Pie has an apparently unlimited number of votes, yet his being silenced wasn't announced.