What do people think of Biden’s Supreme court reforms?

Author: Moozer325

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IwantRooseveltagain
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@Moozer325
Trump is a good speaker
Um, no. No he’s not a good speaker. He’s good at fear mongering and scapegoating minorities .

. But not all conservatives are dumb.
The smart conservatives, the never Trumpers, are not MAGA MORONS.

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@Moozer325
Not everyone on the other side is the enemy.
Uh, I hate pacifists.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
What if the general public wanted to deny blacks from voting? Or bald people. Should the judges reflect that?
If the constitution says that black people or bald people can’t vote, then the judges should reflect that.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Um, no. No he’s not a good speaker. He’s good at fear mongering and scapegoating minorities 
That’s what I mean basically. He’s a good Sophist and demagogue, so he appeals to dumb voters.
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@Moozer325
If the constitution says that black people or bald people can’t vote, then the judges should reflect that.

Exactly, so the judges should reflect the law, not the people’s opinions. 

That’s not what you said earlier. You seem confused or unable to remember what you have said

Yeah, that’s the point. The court should reflect the attitude of the general public, that’s the whole point of a republic.

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@Moozer325
That’s what I mean basically. He’s a good Sophist and demagogue, so he appeals to dumb voters.
I see

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@IwantRooseveltagain
Exactly, so the judges should reflect the law, not the people’s opinions. 

That’s not what you said earlier.
Well that’s what’s supposed to happen in a pretty black and white situation, but abortion is anything but. Judges will have different opinions on how to interpret the constitution on that issue, and so you should load the court with justices that will interpret it one way, when 62% of people interpret it the other way.
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@Moozer325
You need to stop being so polarizing. Many Trump supporters are MAGA morons. Trump is a good speaker and so he appeals to dumb voters, that’s why he’s so good. But not all conservatives are dumb. This is why we are so divided as a nation. Not everyone on the other side is the enemy.

If you read about what I wrote about wedge issues, then you realize how people like IWrA make it impossible to resolve those wedge issues.

"MAGA MORONS" is a great example of the kinds of strawmen used to perpetuate wedge issues for eternity.
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If you read about what I wrote about wedge issues, then you realize how people like IWrA make it impossible to resolve those wedge issues.
Libertarians don’t take a stand on anything. They are useless, spineless, and ineffective 

MAGA MORONS" is a great example of the kinds of strawmen used to perpetuate wedge issues for eternity.
MAGA and MAGA MORONS is a Trump thing. It’s been 10 years. He will soon be gone. Once he loses the election his trials will move forward and he will be jailed.

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@Moozer325
 He’s a good Sophist and demagogue, so he appeals to dumb voters.
I disagree, for whatever reason, he seems more genuine than his opponents, so at best, he is a good actor. It's not like he is an actual genius.

Recently, Kamala used Megan Thee Stallion to appeal to twerkers and faked a ghetto voice to appeal to low info voters in Atlanta, but her acting wasn't as good as Trump's acting.
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he seems more genuine than his opponents,
genuinely awful.

Trump is stupid. He’s not acting. 

I just realized, you are a sophist. A cat lady sophist
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He will soon be gone.
But the strawmans will continue, no matter who replaces Trump. Hell, they even called Romney a dog killer. And Romney is about as opposite Trump as you can get.
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But the strawmans will continue,
strawmen

Hell, they even called Romney a dog killer
Romney did a stupid thing with a dog. Christie Noem did a horrible thing with a dog. They deserve to be ridiculed for it.

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@Moozer325
Exactly, it shouldn’t be random. It should reflect the attitude of the public.
what is your proposal ?
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@Moozer325
Exactly, so the judges should reflect the law, not the people’s opinions. 
Incredibly, IWRA has made a cogent point. Mark your calendars, stop the presses.


Well that’s what’s supposed to happen in a pretty black and white situation, but abortion is anything but.
It's pretty black and white as far as the constitution is concerned. It doesn't mention abortion as a right, it does mention life as a right which can only be surrendered by committing a crime.

If anything (and this is only a stretch given the divide on person-hood situation) one could argue the constitution would require that the fetus be convicted of a crime before being sentenced to death.

On the other hand every state in the union have passed laws making it criminal negligence for a legal guardian to abandon or neglect their wards, so there is a long long precedent of depriving parents of their liberty due to their decision to be parents.

What you mean is that the issue isn't black and white, but the purpose of law is not to be twisted to resolve moral controversy but to be written to enforce the objectively determined moral principles. If the people believed abortion was a right they can add it to the bill of rights (which wouldn't necessarily mean they are right, but it would be subject to the hurdles the constitution demands of such permanent decisions).


Judges will have different opinions on how to interpret the constitution on that issue
Differing opinions is not evidence of fundamental superposition or subjectivity.

People have had differing opinions about whether the Earth is flat but it is objectively (all reason and evidence concludes) a sphere.

People have differing opinions about the US constitution but it is objectively (all reason and evidence concludes) silent on the idea of a "right to abortion".


and so you should load the court with justices that will interpret it one way, when 62% of people interpret it the other way.
If you can (and we can't) stack the court with people who can objectively interpret the law that would be what we ought to be doing.

This supreme court is doing better than previous ones, but far from perfect.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ya, you read the Federalist Papers, um no. No you did not.
I have multiple times. Seems like you haven’t yet tho
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@ILikePie5
What’s the gist of what Madison had to say against term limits? That it would politicize justices more?
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"They may be our enemies, but we still have to treat them with respect."

Uh my brain hurts from the truth in that sentence.
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@cristo71
Basically, he wanted judicial precedents to mean something lasting and based in a generally accepted understanding of the law and the constitution. If the judges had terms, those decisions would be constantly changing, making legal precedent (the basis of the respect of the court) near meaningless.
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what is your proposal ?
I thought that was obvious. Term limits. Maybe not 18 years, that’s pretty short, but it’s still better than rolling the dice for when the justices will die or resign.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It doesn't mention abortion as a right, it does mention life as a right which can only be surrendered by committing a crime.
But the question is, does a Zygote count as a person? Doctors still disagree about this. Sure, it’s alive, but it’s not really conscious the way that you and me are. It’s more of a jumble of cells. If it was counted as a person, then it’s right to life would absolutely trump the mothers right of choice, but it’s still not clear if that’s true.

If you can (and we can't) stack the court with people who can objectively interpret the law that would be what we ought to be doing.

This supreme court is doing better than previous ones, but far from perfect.

But no person can perfectly interpret the law. That’s why there are 9 justices, not 1. You need a wide array of different perspectives, and this amendment will help to achieve that. Currently, we don’t have that.
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@Moozer325
It doesn't mention abortion as a right, it does mention life as a right which can only be surrendered by committing a crime.
But the question is, does a Zygote count as a person?
Not a question put to the supreme court (AFIK).

That did not come up at all in reversing Roe v Wade.


Doctors still disagree about this.
You say "doctors" like they would have special insight. In order for an objective experiment to prove personhood you would first have to define personhood in a way that is subject to objective detection.


Sure, it’s alive, but it’s not really conscious the way that you and me are.
The same is true of a baby, and maybe a twelve year old.


It’s more of a jumble of cells.
I don't think anybody is arguing that a brain is instantly fully formed. The question is whether a functioning brain or hope for a functioning brain is enough to impart rights.


If it was counted as a person, then it’s right to life would absolutely trump the mothers right of choice, but it’s still not clear if that’s true.
Rights don't trump each other. If your theory predicts a conflict between rights where one must take priority your theory is incomplete.


If you can (and we can't) stack the court with people who can objectively interpret the law that would be what we ought to be doing.

This supreme court is doing better than previous ones, but far from perfect.
But no person can perfectly interpret the law.
Why not? I understand the argument that average opinions are more trustworthy than individual opinions (this is the democratic premise), but that is a statistical (and inductive) argument not a qualitative one.


You need a wide array of different perspectives
Why?


and this amendment will help to achieve that. Currently, we don’t have that.
Why would limiting presidents to two appointees instead of three (or 10 in some cases) achieve that?
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@Moozer325
Term limits. Maybe not 18 years, that’s pretty short, but it’s still better than rolling the dice for when the justices will die or resign.
20 years seems reasonable
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@cristo71
What’s the gist of what Madison had to say against term limits? That it would politicize justices more?
Here are the two main paragraphs from Federalist 78 that I think scum up his argument for why justices were given a life term:

This simple view of the matter suggests several important consequences. It proves incontestably, that the judiciary is beyond comparison the weakest of the three departments of power1; that it can never attack with success either of the other two; and that all possible care is requisite to enable it to defend itself against their attacks. It equally proves, that though individual oppression may now and then proceed from the courts of justice, the general liberty of the people can never be endangered from that quarter; I mean so long as the judiciary remains truly distinct from both the legislature and the Executive. For I agree, that "there is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers.''2 And it proves, in the last place, that as liberty can have nothing to fear from the judiciary alone, but would have every thing to fear from its union with either of the other departments; that as all the effects of such a union must ensue from a dependence of the former on the latter, notwithstanding a nominal and apparent separation; that as, from the natural feebleness of the judiciary, it is in continual jeopardy of being overpowered, awed, or influenced by its co-ordinate branches; and that as nothing can contribute so much to its firmness and independence as permanency in office, this quality may therefore be justly regarded as an indispensable ingredient in its constitution, and, in a great measure, as the citadel of the public justice and the public security.

There is yet a further and a weightier reason for the permanency of the judicial offices, which is deducible from the nature of the qualifications they require. It has been frequently remarked, with great propriety, that a voluminous code of laws is one of the inconveniences necessarily connected with the advantages of a free government. To avoid an arbitrary discretion in the courts, it is indispensable that they should be bound down by strict rules and precedents, which serve to define and point out their duty in every particular case that comes before them; and it will readily be conceived from the variety of controversies which grow out of the folly and wickedness of mankind, that the records of those precedents must unavoidably swell to a very considerable bulk, and must demand long and laborious study to acquire a competent knowledge of them. Hence it is, that there can be but few men in the society who will have sufficient skill in the laws to qualify them for the stations of judges. And making the proper deductions for the ordinary depravity of human nature, the number must be still smaller of those who unite the requisite integrity with the requisite knowledge. These considerations apprise us, that the government can have no great option between fit character; and that a temporary duration in office, which would naturally discourage such characters from quitting a lucrative line of practice to accept a seat on the bench, would have a tendency to throw the administration of justice into hands less able, and less well qualified, to conduct it with utility and dignity. In the present circumstances of this country, and in those in which it is likely to be for a long time to come, the disadvantages on this score would be greater than they may at first sight appear; but it must be confessed, that they are far inferior to those which present themselves under the other aspects of the subject.

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@Moozer325
I suppose that’s fair. I’m not mad about the rulings tho, I mad about Trump abusing his power and appointing 3 justices. I didn’t think this was really possible until he did it, so I saw no reason to safeguard against it. Now that we know it is a problem though, we should do something about it.
So you think it’s an abuse of power for the President of the United States to appoint Supreme Court justices, which is literally what he is supposed to do under the Constitution. You don’t have a problem with a President appointing 3 judges. You have a problem with Trump appointing 3 judges because “Orange man bad”
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@ILikePie5
Okay, it’s not an abuse of power, I overreacted, but it’s still not a good thing that some president end up with more appointees than others.
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@Moozer325
Okay, it’s not an abuse of power, I overreacted, but it’s still not a good thing that some president end up with more appointees than others.
Obama had two. He could’ve had three if RBG retired as well. The system was designed in a way where some Presidents have more appointees than others. Roosevelt had 9. Truman had 4. Ike had 5. People weren’t complaining then. The only reason they are complaining now is because of “orange man bad.”
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@ILikePie5
...should be bound down by strict rules and precedents, which serve to define and point out their duty in every particular case that comes before them; and it will readily be conceived from the variety of controversies which grow out of the folly and wickedness of mankind...

Sad America has no leaders like this.
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@Moozer325
Some type of term limit or guarantee that each POTUS has the opportunity to appoint the same number of justices is a good idea but I don’t see how you could possibly do it in a fair way at this point. The current system where massive swings in power depends on when an elderly person happens to die is insane. I don’t think the founding fathers anticipated how much power SCOTUS would end up having. It’s ultimately the sovereign body in the US which is why I’m terrified of a liberal majority. The last time the left had a solid majority and decided to go for it the Warren court basically threw out the original constitution lol
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Some type of term limit or guarantee that each POTUS has the opportunity to appoint the same number of justices is a good idea but I don’t see how you could possibly do it in a fair way at this point. 
Actually I just thought of a fair way. Implement term limits or whatever type of reform is best for newly appointed justices but they don’t go into effect until 30 years from now. We’ll have to deal with the current bad system for the time being but we’ll end it there. And absolutely nobody could possibly predict what politics will be like that far in the future so it’s as “fair” as you can get, the “fog of war” from the future is the only possible way to get both sides to agree. Whichever side feels like they have dominance on the court in the near future will never agree to a change even if it’s best for the country