definition of "fascism"

Author: prefix
Fascism

Posts

Total: 357
#241
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
#234

Much of the "25 point plan" contained socialist ideas.

how much of this do you think was simply false promises

and which specifically "socialist" policies were actually implemented ?

Check the source.

i'm not going to make YOUR argument for you

if you refuse to present SPECIFICS

i remain unconvinced
Topic's author
#242
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
#241

Maybe it isn't false opinion; but it is, in this thread, a meaningless and stupid opinion.

See if you can figure out why.

"An opinion may be supported by facts and principles, in which case it becomes an argument.
Different people may draw opposing conclusions (opinions) even if they agree on the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be reasoned  that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another, by analyzing the supporting arguments. ( per.....

False opinion..."Gerald Ford was never President, because he was never elected to that post."

Then remain unconvinced, but think deeply about why you are unconvinced.
Topic's author
#243
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
You said earlier that the CIA did not define "socialist state"

The CIA does define "socialist State"....but you will not find that EXACT term used, so YOU must use your reasoning power (?) to extrapolate. ( good luck to all who read what 3ru7al comes back with. )

"socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite." ( https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/government-type/). [ Emphasis Mine ]

On 240

I already answered you question. It was proved by real world examples. All this in the previous 240+ comments. See if you can find it.
#244
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
Maybe it isn't false opinion

perhaps you have a better example of a FALSE opinion ?
#245
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
You said earlier that the CIA did not define "socialist state"

The CIA does define "socialist State"....but you will not find that EXACT term used, so YOU must use your reasoning power (?) to extrapolate. ( good luck to all who read what 3ru7al comes back with. )

"socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite." ( https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/government-type/). [ Emphasis Mine ]

this is less of a functioning definition

and more of a naked assertion
Topic's author
#246
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
244....

I said ........"False opinion..."Gerald Ford was never President, because he was never elected to that post." ( as an example )

This is an example of an opinion that someone might have but it  does not withstand examination.

Here is a syllogism....

Presidents are elected
Ford was not elected
Therefore Ford was never President.

False opinion based on false assumptions.

Here is another one

"Socialism is not a government. It is a form of ownership" ( 3ru7AL stated this without source)

Compare that to ......"socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite." ( https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/government-type/). [ Emphasis Mine ]  FULLY SOURCED.

Now tell me 3RU7AL what we need to go over yet again ad infinitum.




Topic's author
#247
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
245

this is less of a functioning definition

and more of a naked assertion


Then find a counter source.

Also define exactly what a functioning definition is using source material.

Also define exactly what a naked assertion is using source material.

Also define exactly what less is using source material.

Also define exactly what more  is using source material.

And where did your 3:38 PM comment go?



#248
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
"Socialism is not a government. It is a form of ownership" ( 3ru7AL stated this without source)

Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems[1] characterised by social ownership of the means of production,[2] as opposed to private ownership.[3][4][5] It describes the economic, political, and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems.[6] Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative,[7][8][9] or employee.[10][11]



SAME SOURCE AS BEFORE
#249
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
Also define exactly what a naked assertion is using source material.

" in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers "


a definition does not include claims like, "everyone who says they believe in this idea is a liar"
Topic's author
#250
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
248

From your source.....

"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems"

Now here we need to divest you of your "uber literal" brain.

An economic and political theory cries out as a theory of a particular form of  government.

Also economic and social systems  cry out as a theory of a particular form of  government.

You stated earlier that having public schools is socialism, but you never cited a source that agrees with your "opinion".

Face facts....socialism as a form of government leads to rule by the elite, as per CIA cite above.

And those elites can easily become fascists.
#251
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
Also economic and social systems  cry out as a theory of a particular form of  government.

i see, i guess that's why we call "capitalism" a form of government
#252
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
characterised by social ownership

you skipped the core characteristic
Topic's author
#253
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
249

I do not understand what you are saying in #249.

What are you saying????????

From what "non implication" are you inferring  something that was neither stated nor implied?  
#254
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
You stated earlier that having public schools is socialism, but you never cited a source that agrees with your "opinion".
please explain how public schools are "capitalist" institutions
Topic's author
#255
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
251

Socialism creates  a form of governance.

Capitalism creates  a form of governance.

"State socialism is a political and economic ideology within the socialist movement that advocates state ownership of the means of production. This is intended either as a temporary measure, or as a characteristic of socialism in the transition from the capitalist to the socialist mode of production or to a communist society.  .... It advocates a planned economy controlled by the state in which all industries and natural resources are state-owned. { per  Tucker, Benjamin (1985) [1886]. State Socialism and Anarchism and Other Essays: Including the Attitude of Anarchism Toward Industrial Combinations and Why I Am an Anarchist . and   Ellman, Michael (2014). Socialist Planning  and WIKI]

"Capitalism is an economic and political system where trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. Its core principles are accumulation, ownership, and profiting from capital.  ......Capitalism is the dominant world economic system, ..... Most political theorists and nearly all economists argue that capitalism is the most efficient and productive system of exchange." [ https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.]

"Capitalism vs. Socialism
In terms of political economy, capitalism is often contrasted with socialism. The fundamental difference between the two is the ownership and control of the means of production. In a capitalist economy, property and businesses are owned and controlled by individuals. In a socialist economy, the state owns and manages the vital means of production. However, other differences also exist in the form of equity, efficiency, and employment. [Ibid]

Thus it is seen, broadly speaking, that the economy  of a nation determines the government of that nation. Granted there are exceptions, but they are just that EXCEPTIONS.





Topic's author
#256
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
252

????????????????????????????
#257
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
State capitalism is an economic system in which the state undertakes business and commercial (i.e., for-profit) economic activity and where the means of production are nationalized as state-owned enterprises (including the processes of capital accumulation, centralized management and wage labor). The definition can also include the state dominance of corporatized government agencies (agencies organized using business-management practices) or of public companies (such as publicly listed corporations) in which the state has controlling shares.[1]

A state-capitalist country is one where the government controls the economy and essentially acts as a single huge corporation, extracting surplus value from the workforce in order to invest it in further production.[2]



(IFF) state-capitalism can be distinguished from non-state-capitalism (THEN) state-socialism can be distinguished from non-state-socialism
Topic's author
#258
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
254

I asked you for a source for your "opinion" thus ......"You stated earlier that having public schools is socialism, but you never cited a source that agrees with your "opinion"."


You have not sourced this opinion, which I have inquired after.

Now you DODGE and ask of me....

please explain how public schools are "capitalist" institutions
Again an inference  made without implication. I never said what you think I said.
I never said they were "capitalist" or "socialist". Neither is true.


Here is even more to think about

"Capitalism has a long record of delivering schooling and other types of education. When schooling was delivered primarily by the private sector, literacy rates in the United States were as high as, or higher than, they are today despite vast increases in resources, technology, and expertise devoted to schooling." ( https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/0817939717_317.pdf)

Thus,  the topic remains that three real world examples exist where a previously socialist state morphed in a fascist state. This is especially true when we accept 3ru7al's definitions.


#259
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
I never said they were "capitalist" or "socialist". Neither is true.

ok, what is this third category called ?

"monarchy" ?
Topic's author
#260
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
257

Socialism as a basis for governance is the same as "state socialism".

Capitalism as a basis for governance is NOT  the same as "state capitalism"

State socialism is very close to state capitalism.

This was already explained above.

See if you can find it.

Topic's author
#261
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
259

You suffer from an extreme categorical imperative.

A public school system is neither socialist ( in the real world sense), nor capitalist ( in the real world sense).

It need not be grouped as either.

A restaurant serves the public. Is it socialist?

I worked for a time in public service, but I am not a socialist.

Some jigsaw pieces simply don't fit, because you have too many puzzles at play.

An alpaca gives wool, but most people don't think it is a sheep. Why do you?


#262
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
A restaurant serves the public. Is it socialist?
where does the funding come from for this restaurant

and where do the profits end up ?
#263
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
Capitalism as a basis for governance is NOT  the same as "state capitalism"
ok, what would you call a system of governance that is based on capitalism ?
Topic's author
#264
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
262

I Asked you...."A restaurant serves the public. Is it socialist?"

You dodged again by not answering, but rather asking further dodgy questions.

where does the funding come from for this restaurant

and where do the profits end up ?

Well, this restaurant was funded by  a large group of people who put up the start up money to open the restaurant. Some in this  group were then employed by the restaurant. They were part owners, and the distribution of profits was determined by the group. Some was paid out to workers, some was given to charity, and some was reinvested into the restaurant. Some profit was returned to the investors. Some money was used for a weekly "soup kitchen" for the needy.

The name of the restaurant was " The alpaca is not a sheep" and later changed to "The Market Capitalist".

"What do you mean by"where does the funding come from for this restaurant and where do the profits end up "?
"What do you mean by the word mean?
"what do you mean by the word "word"?
"and what do you mean by wasting my time like this?"    { per M. Python ).




#265
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
Well, this restaurant was funded by  a large group of people who put up the start up money to open the restaurant. Some in this  group were then employed by the restaurant. They were part owners, and the distribution of profits was determined by the group. Some was paid out to workers, some was given to charity, and some was reinvested into the restaurant. Some profit was returned to the investors. Some money was used for a weekly "soup kitchen" for the needy.

what you've described is a hybrid capitalist + socialist enterprise

like nearly every society on planet earth
Topic's author
#266
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
263

By inspecting the definition of "state capitalism" , it is clear that this is state centric rather than capitalist centric. It is closer to state socialism , as you can see. ( but probably will not).

ok, what would you call a system of governance that is based on capitalism ?

I will answer that by channeling 3ru7al  ............

what would you call a system of governance that is  NOT based on capitalism ?




Topic's author
#267
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
265

what you've described is a hybrid capitalist + socialist enterprise

like nearly every society on planet earth

You failed to ask the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. Is the restaurant located in a socialist country or a non-socialist country?

You STILL think that giving to charity is "socialist". Most would call it  "humanist", and explicitly non political .

And now they have changed their name from " The alpaca is not a sheep" and later changed to "The Market Capitalist",  and later changed to " The humanist Hamburger Place", and now to  "The Endless Linguine"

Thus,  the topic remains that three real world examples exist where a previously socialist state morphed in a fascist state. This is especially true when we accept 3ru7al's definitions.





#268
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
what would you call a system of governance that is  NOT based on capitalism ?
one example you might not be familiar with is called "state-socialism"

you might think that "monarchy" and or "feudalism" is not based on capitalism, but if you understand that capitalism is a system of ownership

then it becomes obvious that "monarchy" and or "feudalism" is extremely capitalistic
#269
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@prefix
the topic remains that three real world examples exist where a previously socialist state morphed in a fascist state
more specifically, YOU CLAIM something you've very vaguely defined as "socialist-state" is always 100% of the time prerequisite to the formation of something you've very vaguely defined as "fascist-state"

what are the three examples you personally believe prove your case ?
Topic's author
#270
prefix
prefix's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 531
3
3
9
prefix's avatar
prefix
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
268

The endless linguine

Feudalism is closer to socialism than capitalism. Look it up.

State socialism is ownership centralized in the hands of the government.

Monarchy is too varied to be classified ( unless one has an overpowering urge to do so).

What exactly are you fighting for?  We hold these truths to be self evident.

Are you still trying to get sheep's wool off an alpaca?