definition of "fascism"

Author: prefix
Fascism

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#211
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@WyIted
According to this definition of right/left which should be the working definition, are you closer to Hitler the statist or Ron Paul the anti statist?

there are more than two data points on the grid

you need 4 data points

have you looked at the political compass ?
#212
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@3RU7AL
I literally get to define it how I want to, jut yes the political compass is shit and I think fascists, commies and Nazis have a lot in common TBH. Way more in common with each other than the Nazis and libertarians which are on the right side of the left right divide according to modern understanding of the term
#213
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@WyIted
the authoritarian scale

is not the same

as the policy scale
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#214
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@3RU7AL
#200

You are displaying an egocentric attitude in a public forum.

You can have your own opinions which may have merit to you, but in a public forum we seek the truth.

I hope that is understandable to you.

It probably won't be, and this HS will go on.

I thought you were finished, but you keep pitching, I'll keep hitting home runs.

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#215
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@3RU7AL
on #201

you can certainly DISAGREE with an opinion

but you cannot "refute" an opinion
This is an example of egocentric thinking

Merriam defines "refute" thus.....


"1: to prove wrong by argument or evidence : show to be false or erroneous



There exists in the universe opinions some of which are false; some are true.

An egotist, who is the measure of all things unto himself" would believe that an opinion cannot be refuted.

What then of someone who holds many many false opinions?

Can they ever find the truth?

I hope that is understandable to you.

It probably won't be, and this HS will go on.

I thought you were finished, but you keep pitching, I'll keep hitting home runs.





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#216
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@3RU7AL
On #203

I CLEARLY STATED that I did NOT AGREE WITH YOUR DEFINITION!!!!!!

Read again what I said, and what you cut and pasted......

"So, using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE, there was not a single library in Weimar."

Did you see where I SAID  .."using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE,"

using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE

using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE

using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE

You then stated


this is fantastic, i love how you are now adopting my definitions
Reading comprehension much?

"WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE " clearly refutes your false opinion that I agreed.




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#217
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@3RU7AL
General notes

The Weimar was a republic until 1933. From 1933 until 1938 ( or 1939 as some historians note ) Germany was governed by the NSDAP socialist party.

In 1938 ( or late 1938 ) it morphed into fascism.

In Italy .."In the 1900s and 1910s, the PSI [ Italian Workers Party ]achieved significant electoral success, becoming Italy's first party in 1919" ( "Partito socialista italiano in 'Dizionario di Storia'". Treccani (in Italian). Retrieved 1 February 2023.).

Mussolini was a member of the PSI and  later  founded the fascist movement .

"Socialism in Argentina started in the 1890s. Peron then created a  ""peculiar brand of socialism" that heavily incorporated elements of nationalism and Christian social teaching. Main sources of inspiration for Perón and his polices were the Italian fascism of Mussolini" ( wikipedia "Peronism"}

See "There’s No Denying the Socialist Roots of Fascism" ( Foundation for Economic Education ..SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2021).

I hope that is understandable to you.

It probably won't be, and this HS will go on.

I thought you were finished, but you keep pitching, I'll keep hitting home runs.

" So that;s all sorted then" ( Wilfred Hamilton, Dean of Criminology  at Cambridge as played by Douglas Reith on the BBC).
#218
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@prefix
There exists in the universe opinions some of which are false; some are true.

do you have some examples of "true" opinions

do you have some examples of "false" opinions

and while we're on the topic, which opinion do you believe i hold that is "false" ?
#219
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@prefix
Did you see where I SAID  .."using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE,"
ok, clearly you've decided to abandon any attempt to define "socialist state"
#220
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@prefix
The NSDAP, or National Socialist German Workers' Party, a far-right political party in Germany led by Adolf Hitler. Despite the name, it was not a socialist party but promoted nationalist and fascist ideologies.


i get it now

if someone calls themselves a "socialist party" then they qualify in your mind to be a "socialist state" regardless of their policies
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#221
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@3RU7AL
#218

do you have some examples of "true" opinions

The earth orbits around the Sun.

do you have some examples of "false" opinions

The Sun orbits around the Earth

and while we're on the topic, which opinion do you believe i hold that is "false" ?

It's hard to tell as you have not articulated any of them very well, but in #203 you opined that I agreed with your definition, even though I clearly stated that I did not.
using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE

using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE

using your definition,  WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE




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#222
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#219

ok, clearly you've decided to abandon any attempt to define "socialist state"
Yet another false opinion. 

I was clearly awaiting YOUR definition.  The ones you offered were refuted. Still awaiting a final and concise def.

Also all of #219 was a "dodge" on your part.


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#223
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#220

The NSDAP, or National Socialist German Workers' Party, a far-right political party in Germany led by Adolf Hitler. Despite the name, it was not a socialist party but promoted nationalist and fascist ideologies.

Provide a source for this statement. 


i get it now

I doubt that you "get" much at all.

if someone calls themselves a "socialist party" then they qualify in your mind to be a "socialist state" regardless of their policies

Then tell me HOW DO YOU DEFINE THE TERM "SOCIALIST STATE"? 




#224
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@prefix
It's hard to tell as you have not articulated any of them very well, but in #203 you opined that I agreed with your definition, even though I clearly stated that I did not.
in #203 i clearly stated "IF YOU AGREE..."

and then i asked repeatedly if you agree with certain specific statements
#225
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@prefix
ok, clearly you've decided to abandon any attempt to define "socialist state"
Yet another false opinion. 

I was clearly awaiting YOUR definition.  The ones you offered were refuted. Still awaiting a final and concise def.

the claim under consideration is YOUR claim - "socialism is a necessary precursor to fascism"

i disagree, but i am trying to help you steel-man your case

i thought that perhaps you considered any state with a ruling party that uses the term "socialist" in their title or in their constitution to be a "socialist state"

but you said that is not the case

i thought that perhaps after you sung the praises of the cia, that you must subscribe to their definition of "state socialism"

but strangely, cia.gov does not contain a list of "socialist states" and they provide no definition of "state socialism"

i thought that perhaps you considered SOCIALIST STATE equivalent to TOTALITARIANISM

but you said that is also not the case

do you believe that modern china is socialist, communist, or fascist, or some combination ?
#226
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@prefix
Also all of #219 was a "dodge" on your part.

sure you SAY you disagree with it

so why are you using it to fabricate an argument ?
#227
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@prefix
The NSDAP, or National Socialist German Workers' Party, a far-right political party in Germany led by Adolf Hitler. Despite the name, it was not a socialist party but promoted nationalist and fascist ideologies.
Provide a source for this statement. 
Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way, and certainly not after 1934. But to address this canard fully, one must begin with the birth of the party.


Fact-checked by: The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
#228
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@prefix
do you have some examples of "true" opinions
The earth orbits around the Sun.

do you have some examples of "false" opinions
The Sun orbits around the Earth

Answer by Richard Muller, Professor of Physics at UC Berkeley, author of Now, The Physics of Time

According to the general theory of relativity, the Sun does orbit the Earth. And the Earth orbits the Sun. And they both orbit together around a place in between. And both the Sun and the Earth are orbiting the Moon.

General relativity allows the use of any coordinate system. Pick a system in which the center of the Earth is fixed; indeed, it can be a system in which the Earth is not even rotating about its axis. Then you can derive all the equations of motion in this system. In this system, the Sun is moving, not the Earth.

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#229
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#225

Apparently I will need to state the obvious.

CASE ONE

A socialist state might remain a socialist state.

OR it might morph into communism ( Per K.Marx )

OR it might morph into fascism  ( Per G. Gentile)

Not ALL socialist states remain socialist.

Not ALL socialist states morph into communism.

Not ALL socialist states morph into fascism .

CASE TWO

At a county fair......and only within the imaginary confines of this imaginary situation.

If  some people  who ate hot dogs developed  food poisoning, the Public Health department could name the hot dog as a precursor to food poisoning.  

If people who did not eat hot dogs, but ate something else and did not get sick, the Public Health department could name the hot dog as a necessary precursor to food poisoning.  

CASE THREE

In all three real world examples....

All fascist states were previous socialist states.

Political scientists might say socialism is a precursor to fascism.

Since ALL fascist states previous socialist states, socialism would be deemed a necessary precursor to fascism.


Express you agreement to each or show counter examples.










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#230
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@3RU7AL
#226 is vacuous. No point made by you. A dodge. No reply needed.
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#231
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#227

Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way, and certainly not after 1934

I had previously cited dates of 1938 or 1938 , while Britannica...moved the date to 1934.  The question is when did the NSDAP become "NAZI" 1934, 1938, 1939?


Also from Britannica...

"Nazi Party, political party of the mass movement known as National Socialism. Under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, the party came to power in Germany in 1933 "


Much of the "25 point plan" contained socialist ideas. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program)


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#232
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#228 

You stated 

According to the general theory of relativity, the Sun does orbit the Earth. And the Earth orbits the Sun. And they both orbit together around a place in between. And both the Sun and the Earth are orbiting the Moon.
In making judgments and calculations  about real world conditions, there are certain factors so minor that they can be taken as zero.

From the source you cited....


"Of course, that is a very ponderous approach, and although the equations will work, in principle, they will be very awkward and tricky. So scientists never use them.
Why do we use a system in which the Sun is at rest (or in uniform motion)? Because then the equations are simple, intuitive, and (relatively) easy to solve. That is often the trick in physics: find a coordinate system in which the equations of motion are so simple that you can guess the right answer."



Quid est proximum vadum laicorum


9 days later

#233
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@prefix
they will be very awkward and tricky
in other words

NOT FALSE
#234
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@prefix
Much of the "25 point plan" contained socialist ideas.

how much of this do you think was simply false promises

and which specifically "socialist" policies were actually implemented ?
#235
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@prefix
If  some people  who ate hot dogs developed  food poisoning, the Public Health department could name the hot dog as a precursor to food poisoning.  

ok, so


not all socialist states turn fascist

but all fascist states started out as socialists


do you agree with these two statements ?
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#236
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@3RU7AL
For # 233......In other words non sequitur.


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#237
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#234

Much of the "25 point plan" contained socialist ideas.

how much of this do you think was simply false promises

and which specifically "socialist" policies were actually implemented ?

Check the source.

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#238
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#235

Answered and proved.
#239
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#228 

You stated 

According to the general theory of relativity, the Sun does orbit the Earth. And the Earth orbits the Sun. And they both orbit together around a place in between. And both the Sun and the Earth are orbiting the Moon.
In making judgments and calculations  about real world conditions, there are certain factors so minor that they can be taken as zero.

From the source you cited....


"Of course, that is a very ponderous approach, and although the equations will work, in principle, they will be very awkward and tricky. So scientists never use them.
Why do we use a system in which the Sun is at rest (or in uniform motion)? Because then the equations are simple, intuitive, and (relatively) easy to solve. That is often the trick in physics: find a coordinate system in which the equations of motion are so simple that you can guess the right answer."



Quid est proximum vadum laicorum

none of this supports your claim that it is a FALSE OPINION to say that "the sun revolves around the earth"
#240
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#235

Answered and proved.

not even close to "proved"