Breath of the Wild Mafia DP1

Author: Moozer325

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#331
Best.Korea
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@JoeBob
mine said mafia kill, but I thought night kill and mafia kill are used interchangeably
When mod makes a game, he likely uses same pattern of words. 

For example, if he says to one player "mafia kill" instead of "night kill", its likely he repeats same pattern when giving similar description to other player.

Its not always 100% the case, but this does add up.
#332
whiteflame
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@Savant
I can't visit people, so I can't die via the granny.
So there’s less to distinguish you, thanks for clarifying.

To be honest though, I don't think Moozer is super clear on "pseudo-cc's" and that mods are supposed to avoid them.
Maybe not, but I find it odd that Pie wouldn’t have spotted this.

Also, Sam and Merry&pippin function pretty similarly. Become the target of some other plyer.
Yes, but they function distinctly, even though they are both involuntary. Sam is the automatic BG for Frodo, taking NKs aimed at him. Merry&pippin function as unwilling targets for a town role directed at someone else. One affects only scum (anyone who uses an NK), the other affects only town. One affects only kill actions, the other affects all visits. And both have very different results as well, with the first functioning as a means to protect another player while the latter functions for negative town utility by messing with roles.

They are not pseudo-CCs.
#333
Best.Korea
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Still, lets not get completely distracted by this. We do need Earth's role claim. We went the other path too quickly.
#334
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@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
I still think it's splitting hairs, but we've said everything we can really say at this point. I do want a claim from Earth, and we can come back to the other thing if we have time and you think it's super important.
#335
Savant
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@Earth
I can see you're online. Claim plz.
#336
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@Earth
@Best.Korea
Still, lets not get completely distracted by this. We do need Earth's role claim. We went the other path too quickly.
That's fine, we can work on him as well. Earth, you need to either claim or come up with something better to do because you're either going to be a concern in this DP or the next if you give us nothing.

#337
Barney
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@JoeBob
Ok. I am soilder. I can survive one mafia NK.
Not buying this as a counter claim for a bleeder, nor am I buying 1x bulletproof being renamed soldier.

The actual role of soldier came up in a recent game, which I believe our host was in; this makes it far less likely for him to screw up.

…

I also buy the other claim a lot more, particularly with how early it was, and the commentary from the user about poor justification.

VTL JoeBob 
#338
Earth
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I'm going to give you nothing today.
#339
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@Barney
Do you think link would not be in the game?
#340
Earth
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I'm going to bed.
#341
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@Earth
I'm going to give you nothing today.
You silly goose.

VTL Earth
#342
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@Earth
I'm going to give you nothing today.
Is there a pro town reason for this?
#343
AustinL0926
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Ok... not very helpful from Earth. Anyway, rereading the DP closely rn.
#344
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@Barney
VTL JoeBob 
I... really don't get this. So, you think that JoeBob as part of a scum team decided to essentially CC Savant knowing that, when Savant flips town, he would be next on the chopping block? I get that the Soldier claim is a little off, but it's not like this reading of the claim doesn't exist on any major mafia website, nor is it obvious that Moozer would crib the role from a previous game if he chose to use it.

As for claims being a bit off on the justification front, people have been saying that from the start. It doesn't come off as particularly townie to me, since scum would be aware of the disjoint in their own justifications.

#345
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@Earth
I'm going to give you nothing today.
This is either extremely anti-town or scummy. I can't tell which.
#346
AustinL0926
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@whiteflame
This is clearly not the role on mafiauniverse, which functions as a Vig, but it is the role as described on some websites, e.g. https://mafia42.fandom.com/wiki/Soldier. It's not clear from my reading of either that role or the one JoeBob claimed that he can survive any NK, just the mafia NK. Worth asking about, though I'll note that even if it does soak up the Granny shot, it would have to be confirmed by JoeBob that he no longer was BP in order to confirm both of them, and we don't know if he'll receive a message to that effect.
If this is really the case, then that makes Joebob look even worse. Quoting directly from the page you linked:

With the Passive skill [Bulletproof], you can survive from Mafia's attack for one turn.

With the Passive skill [Night Watch], you are immune to the skills of Spy, Thief, Swindler and Hit Man. If they use their skills on you, you will be informed of their identity. Sol bf is Cop.

So, in order to assume that Joebob is really a soldier, we'd have to assume the following:
  • Moozer got no input from Pie on the role names
  • Moozer ignored the exact same role being completely different in a previous game
  • Moozer decided to make a role immune to night kills
    • Instead of going to either Mafiascum, Mafiauniverse, or Mafia.gg, which all list the role as "Bulletproof"
    • He went to Mafia42
      • I'm not even sure how this happens honestly. I searched for "mafia game role ideas", "mafia game role list", "mafia role that can survive kill", and I didn't get a single hit from that website. (Feel free to verify)
  • Moozer then didn't even implement the role as it's described
    • Since that role apparently is also immune to negative actions, which Joebob never mentioned

Like... that's a lot of assumptions. Combine that with Joebob saying that his role is confirmable when it isn't, and hopefully you can understand why I'm a bit suspicious.
#347
Best.Korea
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@Earth
I'm going to give you nothing today
There is still 1 more day of dp, I think.

If you dont give role by the end of dp, I will vote that Lunatic lynches you.

I mean, even if you are scum, isnt 2 days enough to come up with a fake role?
#348
AustinL0926
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As much as I'm skeptical of Joebob's claim, I also agree that it's a stretch to assume he'd so confidently CC. Considering neither Savant or Joebob are particularly subtle as scum, I'm fine with letting them live for another DP and forcing them to participate more, which will probably reveal their alignment sooner or later.
#349
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Maybe I'm confirmation biasing a bit here, but Earth seems frustrated in a way that isn't really town. Generally, town players become defiant and angry when they perceive they're being unfairly pushed - here, Earth just seems like he doesn't care. Considering that it's likely that a partner (either Savant or Joebob, unless you buy the pseudo-CC theory) is going down, as well as the fact that this setup seems mechanically biased in favor of town, I could imagine Earth just cutting his losses.
#350
JoeBob
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@Barney
Not buying this as a counter claim for a bleeder, nor am I buying 1x bulletproof being renamed soldier.
I mean it is a sort of counter claim in the fact that both of ours allows us to survive a mafia kill. Also moozer is a new mod, he could have forgot.
#351
JoeBob
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@AustinL0926
I'm fine with letting them live for another DP and forcing them to participate more
so this will be the first time savant makes it past DP1
#352
Lunatic
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Earth is probably who I am lynching today,just need to find his scum buddy
#353
JoeBob
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@Lunatic
Is Earth usually this inactive? I mean he’s inactive always but this seems more than normal.

#354
JoeBob
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Plus him not cooperating isn’t helping.
#355
JoeBob
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@AustinL0926
  • Moozer got no input from Pie on the role names
well he didn’t last game either sooo, im guessing pie helped with balancing but that’s it
#356
JoeBob
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@AustinL0926
As much as I'm skeptical of Joebob's claim
aren’t you always
#357
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@AustinL0926
So I'm going to start by addressing this:

As much as I'm skeptical of Joebob's claim, I also agree that it's a stretch to assume he'd so confidently CC. Considering neither Savant or Joebob are particularly subtle as scum, I'm fine with letting them live for another DP and forcing them to participate more, which will probably reveal their alignment sooner or later.
Much as I really don't like Earth's behavior this DP, and you address that in your next post, I really don't love this attitude. You seem to be accepting that this was a CC of sorts, and that one of them is likely scum. I don't know why the automatic response to that is "let's delay finding out which it is." I understand pushing on Earth, and I'm frustrated with his play, too, but whether you believe one or the other between Savant and JoeBob, at least one of them should be up for consideration for a lynch this DP, even if we end up going for Earth. 

And this strikes me as odd because you just made a long post responding to me about how JoeBob's claim comes off as scummy because it doesn't match what Moozer would do. Setting aside that it's mod psych... scratch that, double mod psych because you're also thinking about what impact Pie would have had on the game, these suspicions should be leading you towards an NK on JoeBob. I may not agree with it, but I'd understand that a lot more than I understand this "wait and see" approach to behavior. At the very least, you should want this out of the way so that we can decide which of these two is scum if you truly believe everything you're saying about how there's no way Moozer would have crafted this role.

#358
whiteflame
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@AustinL0926
Decided to break this up into two posts because it was getting long.

But let's get into the actual analysis you've given on JoeBob because it's kind of maddening to read.

Moozer got no input from Pie on the role names
So... because there's a role name that sticks out as distinct from what we know about how it's usually played, Moozer got "no input from Pie on the role names"? This DP started roughly 24 hours after the LotR one did. They had far less than 24 hours to confer over the setup for this game, given that that DP ended several hours later and Moozer would have had to prep the basic idea for this one during that time. So your argument is that Pie must have used that time to rename and carefully craft roles instead of, you know, focusing on tackling balance issues and larger issues with the setup? This is where his attention must have been? 

Moozer ignored the exact same role being completely different in a previous game
I'm not assuming what Moozer did or did not do. It was in a previous game. He used a different version here. That doesn't mean he ignored the previous one - he could have just forgotten that it was in a previous game or decided to go a different direction with it knowing it was in a previous game.
Moozer decided to make a role immune to night kills
It's one-time use. Not immunity. It's basically a 1X BP with slightly less utility.
    • Instead of going to either Mafiascum, Mafiauniverse, or Mafia.gg, which all list the role as "Bulletproof"
    • He went to Mafia42
      • I'm not even sure how this happens honestly. I searched for "mafia game role ideas", "mafia game role list", "mafia role that can survive kill", and I didn't get a single hit from that website. (Feel free to verify)
I cited Mafia42 as an example of the Soldier role done similarly to JoeBob's claim. I didn't say that Moozer actively cribbed from this exact site, but it's an example of the role in question played the way JoeBob describes it. I'll note, though, that either Moozer or JoeBob got this from somewhere or made it up. Someone got it from somewhere, whether they pulled it from a site or straight out of their ass.

  • Moozer then didn't even implement the role as it's described
    • Since that role apparently is also immune to negative actions, which Joebob never mentioned
So... because Mafia42 describes it a certain way... and it wasn't cribbed directly from Mafia42 in its entirety... obviously Moozer couldn't have created this role? Sincerely, dude, what is with this logic? I brought up Mafia42 as a potential source for the claim. If it was, it wasn't used verbatim by either Moozer or JoeBob, depending on who fashioned it. If it wasn't used by either of them, then it's irrelevant. What are you even trying to prove by pointing this out? Sincerely, I'm at a loss.
#359
Lunatic
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@JoeBob
Yes he is but yeah not an excuse for his behavior
#360
whiteflame
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Anyway, I spent way too long reading and responding to that post, so I'm going to call it a night here.

To be clear, I don't mind considering a lynch on Earth at this point. At minimum, I think he's earned it through anti-town responses to pushing on him for a claim.

What I don't understand is why people seem to be shoving the Savant/JoeBob situation off as a non-issue. I disagree with him, but I can better understand why Barney's pushing a lynch on JoeBob than just ignoring it entirely. I know we don't want to lynch Savant this DP and it doesn't seem like a lot of people scumread JoeBob for his claim (I certainly don't), but we have the information this DP to know that it's likely one of them. If we're not lynching one of them this DP, they need to be top of the list next DP.