Breath of the Wild Mafia DP1

Author: Moozer325

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AustinL0926
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I'd honestly prefer not to lynch Savant today, and not just because he hasn't made it to D2 once in his life. In the last game he was really transparent as scum (so much so that I caught him by the start of page 4). If the themesplit theory pans out and he is actually scum, he's going to slip up sooner or later.

In particular, that readlist of his feels pretty naturally constructed - I can say that as scum, faking genuine reads is something I really struggle with and I don't see that kind of forced or awkward logic there.
whiteflame
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@Savant
Just realized something. Couldn't we vote for whoever Luna tells us to, and then he gets to keep his power for later? Still puts the onus on him to prove his role tmrw.
I don’t really get this logic. Why delay the use of his role? Using it now reduces PoE pretty effectively (yes, I’m assuming the role is town - scum being able to use something like that is incredibly OP), and I don’t see it doing anything better in a future DP. Delay just invites suspicion.
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@whiteflame


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@AustinL0926
Yeah, considering he’s probably the most townread player atm, I doubt he makes it that far, particularly if his role can be used in that way. Scum have every incentive to kill him if he doesn’t use it.
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@AustinL0926
you're basically banking everything on the assumption of a simple themesplit and scum having just enough fakeclaims to blend in, but no more
Its possible, but unlikely, that there are 2 scums among those 6.

But as I said, I dont think Savant should be lynched this dp, if for nothing then at least his activity and what you said, they never let him to dp2.

But you must understand that other lynches are Casey and Earth unless we go after more role claims, which I feel would be a bit useless at this point when everyone else claims to be confirmable and wouldnt be able to be lynched anyway because "confirmable" basically means we have to let them to dp2 so they could confirm themselves.
Savant
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@Best.Korea
Its possible, but unlikely
Why is it unlikely? If there's one scum there, there could easily be two.
Barney
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@Savant
We could do the same thing in reverse, and it would be more effective. Luna uses the power today, thereby town confirming him, and then we all buddy up to him by voting for whomever he says tomorrow.

What we should do is largely vote as normal both days. Today a little less pressure, since we don’t need any wagon to actually succeed. Tomorrow, we’ll have a town confirmed player, which will mean any wagon he initiates is not initiated by scum; which doesn’t assure the best reasoning, but it creates a good default place to lend support.
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@Barney
All right. As others have pointed out, Luna is unlikely to survive to the end game, so we may as well confirm him today.
whiteflame
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As for reads, I’ll provide my thoughts at this point.

As I see it, at least right now, I’ve got problems with pursuing any of the four Champions. We would have to assume that they were given as fake claims for me to believe that either Chris or BK are scum. Chris claimed too early for that to just be a shoot from the hip fake claim, and BK knew before he claimed his character (he was second of the four to do so, if I’m seeing this correctly) that the other two were taken. I don’t buy that he’s that ballsy, either, and based on how he’s softclaiming his role, I’m solidly against a lynch on him or efforts to get a role claim right now.

Earth is the only one I’m slightly off about because he claimed so late, as well as claiming to be one of the six rather late (though two people claimed to not be one of those six after him, so it’s still pretty ballsy even if it was nonspecific). I’m willing to revisit my reads on these three later, but for anyone who is keeping score, if we assume Moozer gave scum fake claims, the only realistic way two people within this group could be scum is if he gave out two as real claims and two as fake claims. I don’t buy it. I’d sooner buy that Link and Zelda are fake claims.

Speaking of whom, JoeBob and Barney. I’d say I’m pretty null on both. JoeBob says he’s confirmable, so I’ll at least give him the chance to confirm himself. Barney, like me, says he’s semi-confirmable, probably meaning he has to be tracked or his target watched to get a result (that’s what I meant for mine). In any case, these are lynches I’d consider for DP2, but not now. I don’t think scum would make the choice to claim two closely linked characters unless they got them both as fake claims, and even then, I find it hard to believe they’d put themselves in the position to be taken down together.

That leaves three. Luna is the most townread player based on his claim because it’s a role that can be verified this DP. That’s enough for me to write him off as a target unless he somehow fails to do so. That leaves Austin and Savant. I don’t know what the confirmable role is that Austin has, but it’s more than we’re getting from Savant with the Bleeder role, which just barely makes sense and will almost certainly not be confirmed (scum have no reason to target him given that he’s not a PR of consequence), not to mention it functions as a justification for his surviving multiple NPs.

Also, Savant’s reads are consistent with what he has been saying, but they don’t make a lot of sense to me. Chris’s role was in the last setup Moozer made, so it should at least be a plausible role to have in this game. I would absolutely understand if he sussed the claim in that game, but given the plausible CC on the claim, the only way this makes sense is if scum received fake claims including both character and role. It’s possible, but pretty unlikely, that Moozer would hand two of this particular set of four over to town, hand one or more as fake claims over to scum, and give them role claims to boot that mirror claims from last game. That’s what we’d have to assume to believe that Chris used a fake claim, as well as BK, Earth or me receiving a fake claim from that same pool.

I don’t think Moozer would go directly from not offering any fake claims to offering two fake claims that other claims suggest are real (seriously, two of the four Champions when the other two must be town?) and provide them along with at least one role from his previous game to make it plausible, but I guess if we assume that all this is true, I can see how it might have ended up this way. I just don’t buy that Chris’s relative absence and BK’s focus on theme makes them more likely suspects.

And yes, I know I’m focusing on claims more than behavior. For the time being, though, that’s where my thoughts are at.
Best.Korea
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@Savant
Why is it unlikely?
Its very rare that scum gets 2 fake claims. Its usually one or none.

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@Best.Korea
Claiming to be one of the six doesn't automatically require a fake claim if they specify their role late or have more general information about what roles are available to claim.
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@whiteflame
Earth is the only one I’m slightly off about because he claimed so late, as well as claiming to be one of the six rather late
I dislike that too, because scum would maybe risk it and wait for 5 players to claim, so he can fit in. Casey, on the other hand, could have been given fake claim of character, and granny is a cover to not get investigated.
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@Best.Korea
Casey, on the other hand, could have been given fake claim of character, and granny is a cover to not get investigated.
Maybe, but think about what has to be true for Casey to fake claim like that:

He would have had to receive a character as a fake claim that yours, mine and Earth’s seem to confirm should be in this game.

He or his partner cribbed the Granny claim from the previous game, knowing that Moozer had a more than decent chance of including it in this game, and fake-claimed it in the hope that it could give him cover from investigations and lack of NKs while simultaneously allowing for a significant chance of being CC’d.

Maybe that’s true, but I don’t buy it as likely.
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@Savant
have more general information about what roles are available to claim
I assume you mean characters, but thats again equal to a fake claim, so  again, I doubt mod would give 2 fake claims.

 if they specify their role late
Possible, but that would be very risky. I agree that Earth is a bit suspicious for both claiming one of six and character late, thats how much I can say.
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@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
That said, I think we've all kind of made up our minds on what we think we can learn from the theme split. It's possible that the split is heroes vs. villains, and it's also possible that all six champions are in the game. I think there's a good chance that at least one of those things isn't the case, but we won't have more to go on there until someone dies.

That leaves behavioral reads, which I haven't seen brought up as much. The good news is that we still have a day to figure out who's been acting the most scummy.
whiteflame
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@Savant
Claiming to be one of the six doesn't automatically require a fake claim if they specify their role late or have more general information about what roles are available to claim.
I don’t get this take. So you’re arguing that they don’t require a fake claim because they can specify their role late (doesn’t help with the character claim) and may have some information about what roles are available to claim (again, doesn’t inform the available character claims). The point was that claiming one of the six either requires a very ballsy attitude that risks CC or it requires a fake claim. That holds regardless of available roles.
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@whiteflame
He would have had to receive a character as a fake claim that yours, mine and Earth’s seem to confirm should be in this game.
He or his partner cribbed the Granny claim from the previous game, knowing that Moozer had a more than decent chance of including it in this game, and fake-claimed it in the hope that it could give him cover from investigations and lack of NKs while simultaneously allowing for a significant chance of being CC’d.
I agree that its a bit out of ordinary, but its not that unusual for scum to be given both fake claim of role and fake claim of character to one player.

The main problem with casey is that unless granny dies, or game ends, or town player dies, we will never know.
AustinL0926
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I agree with whiteflame here - claiming one of the six, as scum, would almost certainly require a fakeclaim. The only alternative scenario is one in which Moozer mysteriously only puts four or five of those characters in and scum are the last to claim, but that seems highly unlikely.

I don't really see the point in speculating on fakeclaims honestly - either Moozer gave one/two or he didn't. It's just something  to take into consideration as a factor that makes a person more or less likely than random chance to be town.
whiteflame
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@Best.Korea
I agree that its a bit out of ordinary, but its not that unusual for scum to be given both fake claim of role and fake claim of character to one player.

The main problem with casey is that unless granny dies, or game ends, or town player dies, we will never know.
I agree with the latter point. I don’t think that’s a basis for lynching him now, but I get it.

While it is not too unusual for scum to be given that kind of info, I just don’t buy that the fake claim just happened to be one of the four champions. Maybe it is, but that’s an oddly specific spot to carve out for scum, and if true, that would still suggest that the other scum is not among that group of 6, since they would not have received a fake claim at all if they got a full fake claim.
Savant
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@whiteflame
that’s an oddly specific spot to carve out for scum
Not really. Giving all the obvious claims to town members would make the game very unbalanced, so I'd be more surprised by there not being a spot carved out for scum.
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@Savant
That leaves behavioral reads, which I haven't seen brought up as much. The good news is that we still have a day to figure out who's been acting the most scummy.
I agree, behavior should be a factor. I think there are other factors worth considering, and I’m not certain how much we should assume regarding the existence of fake claims, so I’m trying to keep that in mind as I consider the existing claims.
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@Savant
Not really. Giving all the obvious claims to town members would make the game very unbalanced, so I'd be more surprised by there not being a spot carved out for scum.
I agree. I don’t think that a mod, particularly someone new to modding, would specifically carve out a portion of a specific group of four and give two of them to scum as fake claims. I’d sooner believe that Link and Zelda were given as fake claims.
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Here is my latest opinion on the issue, so unless something changes, this is how it is.

We shouldnt lynch Savant now, even if he is scum, because its unfair to never let him get to dp2. Also, it is possible that we even confirm him somehow by dp2. So for these 2 reasons, I think we shouldnt lynch him.

Casey is granny, which means there is no way for us to confirm casey without significant casualties. She is the lynch anyway in dp2 or dp3, unless some cc happens which points us elsewhere. I guess what changes things a bit is that casey claimed early, which we also see from Greyparrot when he is scum. So its not out of this world that scum can claim early, and I guess with granny as a fake claim, it would be even mandatory. Still, why choose granny as a fake claim is what I dont understand, regardless of if mod gave it to scum or scum came up with it on their own.

Earth is suspicious. I remember when I first mentioned non-confirmable roles being targets, he quickly jumped to defend that confirmable roles can be scum. From this, I concluded that he either has non-confirmable role, or he is scum. Still, unlike granny, he can be somewhat confirmed by cop if cop chooses to target him, even tho cop should never say who will he target.

So I think, despite everything, these two are somewhat equal choices. I think we have about 50% chance, since I think two scums are between casey, savant and Earth. 

All other players are confirmable, so must be let to dp2 to confirm themselves.

Between casey and Earth, I would very much like to get Earth's role claim first. It might  give us something better to work with.
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@Earth
I know that Lunatic should be leading this, but he is not online, so I might as well.

As it stands, people are considering between you and casey.

However, you still havent claimed your role. Do you have any reason not to claim it now, given that its non-confirmable anyway?
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I agree Savant should make it to day two, but this is now asking who to lynch today. 
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@Best.Korea
I suppose Casey could be fakeclaiming, but I've never seen a mod provide it as a fakeclaim because it's inherently a bit of a scummy role. Then again, Moozer is pretty new, so I could imagine he wanted to redo the setup, decided to scrap PGO, and had the "brilliant idea" to give it as a fakeclaim.

That being said, I'm leaning more on Earth for behavior. He's been coasting along without providing much, and while I know he's usually inactive, as town he usually would have given something by now - not to also mention that weird comment about thematic analysis being "cheap".
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Doesn't help that it's been radio silence from Earth and Casey for a while.
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@JoeBob
this is now asking who to lynch today.
We must lynch someone to confirm Lunatic, however, we shouldnt lynch casey before we get role claim from Earth. His role might give us a clue, especially about if all roles from previous game are used, which is what I am wondering about.
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@Earth
Yeah, despite my belief that all four of the Champions are likely town, you’re the biggest outlier in terms of behavior, timing of your claim, and being unconfirmable. A full claim is in order.
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We must lynch someone to confirm Lunatic, however, we shouldnt lynch casey before we get role claim from Earth. His role might give us a clue, especially about if all roles from previous game are used, which is what I am wondering about.
I don't think that's the case - I don't remember Luna's role being in the previous game, and he's about to confirm it (hopefully)