㊙️ THE STRONGEST ARGUMENT FOR ATHEISM (TSAFA)

Author: 3RU7AL

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@Sidewalker
....mathematically tells us that energy is conserved when the background on which particles and forces evolve, as well as the dynamical rules governing their motions, are fixed, not changing with time. 

...." Well…yes and no. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can change from more-useful forms into less-useful forms. As it turns out, in every real-world energy transfer or transformation, some amount of energy is converted to a form that’s unusable (unavailable to do work). In most cases, this unusable energy takes the form of heat.

Although heat can in fact do work under the right circumstances, it can never be turned into other (work-performing) types of energy with 100% efficiency. So, every time an energy transfer happens, some amount of useful energy will move from the useful to the useless category."...
 
 But in general relativity that’s simply no longer true. Einstein tells us that space and time are dynamical, and in particular that they can evolve with time. When the space through which particles move is changing, the total energy of those particles is not conserved.

2014 Sciecntif American...." Total energy must be conserved. Every student of physics learns this fundamental law. The trouble is, it does not apply to the universe as a whole "...

...When light is redshifted by the expansion of the universe, where does its energy go? Is it lost, in violation of the conservation principle?.....

...Is conservation of energy one of those misguided ideas? It is not. On the scale of individual photons, energy is always conserved, even as light gets redshifted. Likewise, for phenomena that take place within our galaxy, violations are virtually impossible and our cherished law remains on a sound foundation....

...In contrast, most general relativity or cosmology textbooks say cosmological redshifts happen because as light travels, the very space it travels in gets stretched like the surface of an inflating rubber balloon....

Note ebuc....SW, take note here that, the above says the very space gets stretched and I and no others every recognize much less address this significance of understanding this ' space ' term equals an occupied space medium, yet none every define what that occupied space medium is, including yourself. For this ' space " to stretch it has to be an occupied space medium. No amount of hand waving ignorance can overlook { inconsiderate } this existsence occupied space that stretches.

2014 S.A......This redshift is usually attributed to the stretching of the space through which light travels....

....So photons traveling in an expanding universe appear to lose energy. ...

.....What about matter? Does it lose energy, too? When we describe the motion of matter in the universe, we distinguish between two different types. An object can just be receding with the general flow of the universe's expansion, just like dots painted on our balloon would recede from one another as the balloon inflates.

........In cosmology, such an object is called comoving. But an object can also have its own motion on top of the motion caused by the expansion. This second type is called peculiar motion, and it takes place when something is dragged out of the smooth flow of the expansion by local effects, such as the gravitational pull of a nearby galaxy or the thrust of a rocket.


Note ebuc....Ive been posting for 20 years now that Gravity is a pulling-inward phenomena aka mass-attraction. Ergo an ultra-micro, occupied ' space ' phenomena and as such catagorized as Meta-physical, and my use of the specific terminlogy { Meta-physical } has nothing to do with Meta-space concepts or grandma spirits from beyond type discourse.

2014 S.A........ So the traveler appears to slow down. Thus, much as light loses energy by increasing in wavelength, matter loses energy by slowing down. At first sight those behaviors appear to be very different. But interestingly, quantum mechanics unifies the two. In the quantum-mechanical view of matter, particles that have mass also have wavelike properties...

...Thus, light and matter seem to behave in exactly the same way when it comes to energy loss in the expanding universe, and in both cases it looks as if energy conservation is being violated. In the case of matter, the paradox is explained by the fact that we are measuring velocity in different frames of reference—that is, relative to the receding galaxies. As we will see, something similar happens with photons....

Note ebuc...this is 2nd time author uses the word " appears "  i,e she states 'appears to be losing energy ' or  ' appears 1st law is being violated  i.e. that when used this way, the word appears, means not realy just a superificially ' appearing ' this way or that way, not actually.  Lets read on.

....Were cosmological accountants to verify that the universe is losing energy, they might attempt to tally up all the energy in the universe, rather than focusing on one object at a time....

.....A first problem they would face is that the universe may be infinitely large and contain an infinite amount of matter and energy. Thus, the accountants would need to take a shortcut. They would draw an imaginary membrane around a region of the universe and add up the energy inside. They then would let the membrane expand as the universe does, so that comoving galaxies stay inside the membrane. Light and matter can pass in and out of the membrane, but because the universe is homogeneous, the same amount leaves as enters, so the amount inside the membrane stays roughly constant....

Note ebuc...it is intellectually incorrect to use words "infinitely " and definitivtly " large " in same statement.

.....Although the number of photons or of matter particles within the membrane does not change, over time photon energy is lowered, as is the kinetic energy of the peculiarly moving matter. Therefore, the total energy in the membrane goes down.....

...Thus, as the volume in our membrane increases, the amount of energy in that volume increases as well, with the additional energy seemingly coming out of nowhere! One might think that the increase in dark energy could balance out the losses in all other forms of energy, but that is not the case. Even if we take dark energy into account, the total energy within the membrane is not conserved......

...According to general relativity, matter and energy curve space, and as matter and energy move (or spread out in an expanding space) the shape of space changes accordingly.....

Note ebuc...here again, there using term of "space" as if it is occupied space medium, yet nowhere do the every define with the occupied space medium is specifically/exactly. Meta-physical Gravity, Physical reality and Meta-physical Dark Energy all of associated dynamic shape, because all three are an occupied space, as Ive laid out clearly for many years now.

...This malleability of space implies that the behavior of the universe is not time-symmetric...

Note ebuc...more hand waving a bout "space" without definning specifically what medium this space is.

...We have come to the limit of our cherished conservation principles: when time and space themselves are mutable, time symmetry is lost, and conservation of energy need no longer hold......

Note ebuc....time and space are mutable means what exactly and what specifically is this time and space, when used in this context?
I will tell because they do not. Physical reality { Fermions and bosons } as observed{ quantisexd } time is an occupied space. and Gravity and Dark Energy are an occupied space. ergo they all three are "malutable" and I would say malleable { 

Oosp Ive run out of time. Dam!


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@Sidewalker
First, you are the one making the BOP claim, so the Burden of Proof is on you, you must prove the above assertion.  (The Pavlovian response is nuh uh, the BOP is on you)
what specific claim do you imagine i am making ?
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@Sidewalker
Third, what you are talking about is metaphysics, specifically ontology (Google it), the study of existence, and anyone with even a cursory understanding of philosophy (maybe Google philosophy too) knows that there is no such thing as an ontological proof.  That's why, when I challenge you guys to prove your own metaphysical presuppositions, rather than respond, you guys cry like a little bitch.  
the word "ATHEISM" makes no metaphysical claim

i claim i am NOT-A-THEIST

your only POSSIBLE counter-claim is that you personally believe somehow that i am a THEIST
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@Sidewalker
You have some good points,  I don’t know then why you didn’t accept the debate I offered you. Obviously you still feel like debating on this topic and you are well read which is good so I’ll try giving it another go and make another debate. If you wish you can accept it, this time I will remove all definitions so you can take it anywhere you want :) 
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@3RU7AL
Third, what you are talking about is metaphysics, specifically ontology (Google it), the study of existence, and anyone with even a cursory understanding of philosophy (maybe Google philosophy too) knows that there is no such thing as an ontological proof.  That's why, when I challenge you guys to prove your own metaphysical presuppositions, rather than respond, you guys cry like a little bitch.  
the word "ATHEISM" makes no metaphysical claim
As I predicted, this is you crying like a little bitch, and no shit, the word "ATHEISM" doesn't make claims, because, you know, it's a word, it's only people that make claims. Because you aren't a word, and since you are a person making claims, you cannot hide behind your faith's principles of ignorance and denial.  Perhaps because you have been indoctrinated to just have a Pavlovian response to the word Theist and blurt out the sacred Burden of Proof chant, maybe you don't realize that you are actually asserting something, but trust me, if you were in fact capable of actually thinking about it, you would see that it is an assertion.

Your religion is Scientism, and you see theism as a competing faith, and a sacred principle of your religion is denial that you assert anything, I think it's supposed to be clever or something, but it is a hopelessly uninformed and illogical principle designed to support the ability to use the Sacred BOP game to smite the infidels of competing faiths.  In short, it is intellectually dishonest, nothing but a lie, your handlers have misled you.

Obviously, you didn't Google the terms I told you about, and so you still don't know what you are talking about, if you can stop crying like a little bitch, and don't instead run away with your tail between your legs like a wet dog, then maybe you can actually respond to my challenge.  

You have asserted that the BOP game is valid, and you have clearly indicated that you believe in the existence of an external reality.  That is a metaphysical claim (you really should Google the things you are posturing to talk about (Metaphysics, Ontology, philosophy and logic would be good places to start).

You did in fact assert the validity of your Sacred BOP game, and because you made the claim, the Burden of Proof is on you, please provide proof of your absurd and illogical, completely faith-based claim.

You did in fact, indicate you believe that an external reality exists, The Burden of Proof is on you, prove the existence of an external reality.

i claim i am NOT-A-THEIST

your only POSSIBLE counter-claim is that you personally believe somehow that i am a THEIST
I don't think there is any possible way to make a counterclaim to a non-sequitur, I really don't think meaningless statements need to be opposed.
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@Sidewalker
because, you know, it's a word, it's only people that make claims.

THEISM makes a claim

THEISM claims that a magnificent creator made pretty much everything and then wrote a book about it
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@Sidewalker
Your religion is Scientism
i am not and have never been a follower of your ridiculous strawman "scientism"
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@Sidewalker
this is a very important point


THEISTS often DEMAND that an ATHEIST "justify their disbelief"

THEISTS often DEMAND the ATHEIST "explain why" they disbelieve


and the ATHEIST is puzzled by this demand


because they do not "disbelieve" for any reason


they are simply, NOT-A-THEIST


imagine it as a synonym for the term christians often use to describe NON-CHRISTIANS

imagine asking someone to explain why they are a NON-CHRISTIAN

i'm sure they'd likely say something like "i never decided to become a christian" or "i don't know why anyone would become a christian" or "i remain unconvinced"




think for a minute


at what point did you decide to become a NON-MUSLIM ?


at what point did you decide to become a NON-BUDDHIST ?


please explain your reasons for becoming a NON-TAOIST
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@3RU7AL
Your religion is Scientism
i am not and have never been a follower of your ridiculous strawman "scientism"
You are one of evangelical Scientism's devout, and like all fundamentalists, you deny that your religion is a religion, it is just the way things are.

Amen.
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@3RU7AL
I disagree, you do need justification for all of the things you mentioned. There are reasons I am not Christian and muslim and taoist etc. Atheism requires justification too. Its not just well I dont believe just because. You need reasons for your non belief or you are the same as theist who don’t have reasons for their belief. 

There are reasons all those religions are not compelling. 
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@3RU7AL
this is a very important point
Is it more waah, waah, waah?
THEISTS often DEMAND that an ATHEIST "justify their disbelief"
Frogs often bump their ass when they hop.
THEISTS often DEMAND the ATHEIST "explain why" they disbelieve
Frogs often don't know why they bump their ass when they hop.
and the ATHEIST is puzzled by this demand
If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump theirass when they hop.
because they do not "disbelieve" for any reason
because when you can fly you no longer need tobump your ass when you hop.
they are simply, NOT-A-THEIST
They are simply not bumping their ass.
imagine it as a synonym for the term christians often use to describe NON-CHRISTIANS
Imagine that the frog is an atheist frog.
imagine asking someone to explain why they are a NON-CHRISTIAN
Imagine asking the frog to explain why he is an atheist.
i'm sure they'd likely say something like "i never decided to become a christian" or "i don't know why anyone would become a christian" or "i remain unconvinced"
I'm sure they'd likely say something like, “ribbit, ribbit”.
think for a minute
Thinking, thinking...
at what point did you decide to become a NON-MUSLIM ?
You see the world through the “us/them” thinking of your religious fundamentalism, but I reject your religious fundamentalism because it is rooted arbitrarily in a narrow-minded ideology.

You stand the various religions side by side so you can draw lines horizontally between them and find great differences, but these are the surface level differences, cultural differences of form rather than content, solely exoteric differences.

I draw them vertically along a graded scale of ascending religious discernment in esoteric recognition that every religion has, underlying their various and conflicting literal meanings, a transcendent dimension, which is essential, primordial and universal. 

Ontologically speaking, my faith is in a transcendent Unity, commonly referred to as God (but not always); and using a vertically graded worldview it can be said that “above” the religions converge, and “below” they differ. I think it can also be said that epistemologically speaking, and on the same vertical scale that I referred to as ascending religious discernment, that cognitively, religious discernment unites above the line also. 

Each religion approaches the transcendent reality from different cultural directions or frames of reference, but they do essentially converge on this understanding of the epistemology of knowledge. 

at what point did you decide to become a NON-BUDDHIST ?
Didn’t, Ibelieve Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism and most other major religionsare different manifestations of one and the same transcendent Spirit, of which, Jesus was the Savior,Muhammad was the Prophet, and Buddha was the Enlightened One. 
please explain your reasons for becoming a NON-TAOIST
Being a human beingisn’t something you think about, it’s something you do.

Get real.

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@Sidewalker
Okay, since debate is not something some people feel comfortable with for some reasons I will just address a couple points here and just be done with this “conversation” since its the same as explaining what “scientific theory” is to @Mall. 

Now I understand why Sidewalker refused on multiple occasions to answer questions, define theism, deism, scientific method, whats reasonable etc and I guess being vague is a good strategy but some things are just ridiculous

Firstly, scientism is the concept that you can only prove things with science. I am sure he is aware of that but he is extremely confused of what I have challenged him to do. I never wanted a scientific proof of god. I wanted a sound reason for the belief that a theistic god exists. That could be empirical evidence or logical argument or anything that could be considered reasonable without logical fallacies. The reason I asked for something scientific is that because Sidewalker claimed on numerous occasions that theism is scientific. An absolute nonsensical statement that is rejected even by the best religious apologists and philosophers. Even Sidewalker agreed that science cannot prove god and to claim that the belief in god IS scientific is a simple contradiction of his own statement and it can only be true if you twist and change the definition of “scientific method” in a way that it fits only your beliefs and nobody’s else. Sidewalker brought up art, philosophy and other things different from science and claimed that they can prove something… sure but thats not a scientific method. So, again not achieving anything because thats not science. If you can prove God with art, good for you but that is not science and if you have no scientific argument for your belief in God then obviously your belief in God did not come from scientific methods. Asking questions like if “baseball” is scientific is extremely ignorant. First of all baseball does not require any belief in it. I can go to a stadium, observe a baseball game, go there and test it myself by grabbing a bat and hitting a ball. So if you ask me if my beliefs in the existence of baseball is based on observations and tests then sure, I can say yes, that sounds like the definition of “scientific method”. I have no idea why he even wanted to argue about theism being scientific without having anything to back that up. 

Secondly, aside from all the logical fallacies that he committed while trying to justify the reasonableness of his belief in the vaguely defined “theistic” God and that he refused to elaborate or engage with my rebuttals by simply ridiculing them or ignoring them, saying “go back to your fallacies list”. Without providing any reasons why saying “Isaac Newton was reasonable and he believed in God therefore the belief in God is reasonable” is not an appeal to authority and without acknowledging any of the other logically compromised statements of his, he had 0 philosophical arguments for the existence of God. 

The only thing that is worth responding to now is his objection towards external reality. I understand why he resolved to such bad argument for Theism being reasonable, after all nothing else worked for him which is the reason why he got paranoid and defensive and refused to say anything else about his beliefs. Repeating the same phrases as “BoP game”, “I win”, insults and vulgar language, jokes, ignoring questions he cannot answer, etc.. just shows how he has never heard good objections to his beliefs. It also shows his maturity.
So to get to the point. Sidewalker, I cannot prove external reality, if you are looking for the capital “T” truth I cannot give it to you. Maybe @ebuc can since he apparently is good with physics but I want to take more casual approach to this. You ignored him too btw which is funny.  The reason none of this matters even if we cannot definitely prove the external reality and that leaves the door open for something mysterious, this in no way is a good sound reason to accept the truth of theism. As you hopefully know, theism is the belief that a God who intervenes with us exists. He can be transcended and all of that, which you mentioned, he can be in a spiritual realm or whatever, but the key here is that God is interacting. Nothing of what you said gives us a good reason to believe that there is a creator of the universe that interacts or cares about us. The mere possibility of something is not a sound reason. I have already agreed that God is possible to exist. Supernatural realm is possible to exist. Exactly because none of us know or can possibly know at this stage of our evolution what the true nature of reality is. As far as we know a lot of things are possible. But is the mere possibility of something a good reason to believe in it? I can possibly win the lottery if I go buy a ticket now, I can possibly win shit tone of money if I sell all my belongings and go to the casino and bet it all on number 8. Would the mere possibility of something like that make it reasonable for me to do it or to believe its true and it would happen? This is why your objections and challenges to prove external reality are absolutely irrelevant to the question “is THEISM reasonable”.  

You had no empirical or scientific evidence to back up your claims that theism is scientific.

You had no sound arguments of any kind that support the reasonableness of theism. Not scientific, not philosophical, not art, not anything. 

This is the reason why a belief can be considered irrational. My disbelief is based on the fact that I have not encountered a sound argument that supports the idea that there is a god who interacts with us. But since there are multiple variations of who that God is I have different arguments against different Gods and this is why I asked you what exactly you believe in. I wasn’t trying to trick you into a game I was trying to start the actual discussion but you refused. For the sake of the argument I agreed to your vague definition of God which is not theistic but again you had nothing to back that up too except fallible arguments, insults, and hoping that just because someone cant prove objective reality thats enough for your beliefs to be reasonable. Just because someone cant disprove something doesnt make it reasonable. The presupposition that we exist and the world around us still exists without us is based on empirical evidence and inquiry not on faith. Every single person has to start with some presuppositions and assume something to make sense of the world. I assume a physical reality exists because I can observe objects around me, I can touch them, I can turn on the stove, touch it and burn my hand. Now I might be a brain in a vat or in simulation but theres no way to know that. I know what is around me and I presume it exists because we have no other choice. Now if you want to presume the things around you dont exist, or there is something else supernatural to that, or you presume God exists thats okay. You have all the right to do so. My only question is what do you see around you that makes you presume God? If you want me to send you proof of my presupposition give me an address and I will send you a chair from my house. It might not be enough but hey its at least a starting point for my presupposition that external things around me exist. Maybe you can send me something back to show me why you think God exist? But dont worry, it doesn’t have to be a material proof of God, maybe send me a letter with your philosophical arguments with some sound logic or maybe some kind of art you think proves God? Im all eyes and ears :) and if you dont have anything better than a basic chair then sorry but you have your answer. 

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@Sidewalker
For instance, one example is redshift, the reason we know the Universe is expanding is because of the observation that light is redshifted in all directions, and because a photon's energy is inversely proportional to its wavelength, the light has therefore shifted to a lower energy state, and consequently, the total amount of energy is not conserved.

Hi Sidewalker. I began to address your claims in regards to redshifting of EMRadiation{ photon } at cosmological scales that, "total amount of energy is not conserved" n post #31,  via 2014 Scientific American article, wherein, I presented a lot of context leading to aid in self and others understanding of the seeming appearance of  a ' loss of energy ', because of a higher frequency { shorter wave-length } being stretched out as in moving toward a flat line existence of no frequency i.e. no wave.

Now I will attempt simply and directly address the redshifting EMR and ' appearance of loss of energy ' with hopefully less context as an aid.

1} do you Sidewalker believe Universe to be finite/total, ergo closed system? ? ? Run away or address the question is two primary options before you.

....1a} and to add in clarity to the above, total = finite i.e.  they are likened to being synonyms of each other. To say there exists as total energy of Universe inherently equals finite amount of occupied space. Agreed? ? ? Run away or address the question as posed to you are you two primary options.

2} do you Sidewalke,r believe that the energy ---more specifically total/finite energy { occupied space } of Universe---  can be lost,   as in to say this finite total of occupied space Universe  and not merely  transformed into eternally set of transformation occupied space existence? ? ? ?  Run away or address the question is two primary options  before you.

3} if cosmological redshifing ---due to you and others non-defined ' space ' terminology---   also means an energy loss as heat ergo entropy as the this non-defined ' space ' expansion continues to stretch the EMR{ photon } to longer wave-lengths { lower frequency } and this inevitably points a finite { total energy } Universe toward a heat death hypthosis scenario. Agreed? ? ? ? ? ?

...3a} heat death does not equal a loss of total or any energy of finite, eternally existent Universe. Rather, it only points a greater set of longer waves photons coming into existence to compose the finite, occupied space Universe? Agreed? ? ?

....3b} so we go from shorter { higher energy - hot /\/\/\/ } frequency Universe, to a longer { lower energy - cold ____ } total Universe? ? ?

.....3c} and here is where I would reference back to Penrose's ideas ---that I cant recall clearly without watching his vid again---  about how the Big Bang has such uniformity { symmetry }.

.....4} where does the fields { occupied space } of Fermionic matter and Bsonic Forces come into play in these above regards? Do you believe these occupied space fields are magically lost and cease to exist? ? ? ? ? ? ?

5} is Gravity the contraction opposite of the non-defined ' space ' terminology, that, is apparrently being used assigned to the red-shifting { stretch } by the expansive Dark Energy? ? ? ? ? ?

Below is an excerpt from a person who is trying to explain the apparrent loss energy --via redshifting photons at cosmological scale--- using a transformed version of of the non-cosmological Doppler Effect, that, has no loss of energy when its redshiting.


..."  As a result, it is widely accepted that energy is not locally conserved in general relativity3, although claims are made that energy is globally conserved during expansion. This is in stark contrast to the normal Doppler shift where, as demonstrated in the text, energy is conserved on a photon-
by-photon basis.

.....We are surely entitled to demand that photons redshifted by the cosmological expansion similarly conform. Having established a working equivalence between a Doppler velocity and the cosmological expansion, an attempt is made here to apply the Doppler energy conservation ‘recipe’ to the cosmological shift to explore concepts that may later be transferable to general relativity to recover energy conservation. We avoid the normal unproductive approach of associating the missing energy to unknown field properties; instead, the ‘missing’ energy is accounted for by an apparent kinematic change at the source to guarantee energy conservation in the observer frame.

..Though speculative, the analysis does suggest that energy conservation is possible through the introduction of an additional luminosity-dependent redshift term that evolves according to the mass-to-light ratio of the bound system "..

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@baggins
I disagree, you do need justification for all of the things you mentioned. There are reasons I am not Christian and muslim and taoist etc. Atheism requires justification too. Its not just well I dont believe just because. You need reasons for your non belief or you are the same as theist who don’t have reasons for their belief. 

There are reasons all those religions are not compelling. 

i never "decided" to become a NON-MUSLIM

there is no "reason" i never "decided" to become a NON-MUSLIM

i have always been a NON-MUSLIM

i am simply UNconvinced
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@Sidewalker
You stand the various religions side by side so you can draw lines horizontally between them and find great differences, but these are the surface level differences, cultural differences of form rather than content, solely exoteric differences.

I draw them vertically along a graded scale of ascending religious discernment in esoteric recognition that every religion has, underlying their various and conflicting literal meanings, a transcendent dimension, which is essential, primordial and universal. 

Ontologically speaking, my faith is in a transcendent Unity, commonly referred to as God (but not always); and using a vertically graded worldview it can be said that “above” the religions converge, and “below” they differ. I think it can also be said that epistemologically speaking, and on the same vertical scale that I referred to as ascending religious discernment, that cognitively, religious discernment unites above the line also. 

Each religion approaches the transcendent reality from different cultural directions or frames of reference, but they do essentially converge on this understanding of the epistemology of knowledge. 
ok, so you're a SYNCRETIST
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@baggins
because Sidewalker claimed on numerous occasions that theism is scientific. An absolute nonsensical statement that is rejected even by the best religious apologists and philosophers
bingo
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@baggins
My disbelief is based on the fact that I have not encountered a sound argument that supports the idea that there is a god who interacts with us.
this seems perfectly reasonable
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"there is no god" doesn't seem to contain any implicit ethical code - - in the same way deism, agnosticism, and "soft atheism" don't seem to contain any implicit ethical code

unless you can support a specific ethical framework, the existence of "intelligent designer" is moot
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@3RU7AL
@Sidewalker
SW....my faith is in a transcendent Unity, commonly referred to as God (but not always); and using a vertically graded worldview it can be said that “above” the religions converge,
Syncretist?

"transcendent Unity" = what exactly?  God = what specifically?

So SW has pyramid concept of wide baseline of differrence, and at the pyramid pinnacle { point at top } they all share/converge to the same point of belief, and my guess is, that this Meta-space conceptual point is complemented by the truly macro-infinite non-occupied space, ergo, total illogical nonsense, of a biologic creature that created our finite occupied space Universe, from the truly macro-infinite, non-occupied space.

I understand how at cosmological scales, redshifiting of EMRadiation { photon{s} } implies a loss of energy into truly non-occupied nothing-ness i.e. translates in a accounting loss of the our finite, occupied space Universe into the truly macro-infinite non-occupied space that embraces/surrounds our finite, occupied space Universe. 

No offense intended, tho this as this appears to me as plain ole illogical, lack of common sense critical thinking.  Does Sidewalker really believe the 1st law of thermodynamic is violated? 

Does Sidewalker really believe that the total accounting of our finite, occupied space Universe has been violated?

Maybe Sidwalker and others dont grasp that a sum total of all finite occupied space Universe's  volumetric parts, sum totals as a  finite occupied space Universe.  Maybe they dont believe in inviolate cosmic physical laws and cosmic principles.

Once they throw out in inviolate cosmic laws and cosmic principles they open the door to a Meta-space concept presented as ' anything is possible ',  ---thats kinda of nutty--   because of this belief in a Meta-space of this " transcedent Unity " being aka " God ".

Stating " get real " can translate to being related only to the quantized physical reality of observed { quantized  } time and associated with a Meta-space sine-wave patterning ^v^v and,

not the non-quantized occupied space of Gravity { cotractive }  and Dark Energy { expansive }.

Once logical, common sense critical thinking is not considered as significant to knowledge, then what remains is empirical evidence. Ex quantized PING!, discrete amounts of occupied space reality aka energy, setting off PINGS! with our occupied space instrumentation.

Runaway or face the logical common sense critical thinking truths as presented to us, that, are also verified by our experiences.