I've already said what needs to be said. I'm willing to be hammered if Luna does it. Otherwise, we're lynching Luna.
Mahabharata Mafia DP2
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And the vote on myself is entirely coolly calculated, not out of frustration or anything. I need to be hammered for the role to activate. The fact that Luna said it's the "biggest selling point" for lynching me is ludicrous to say the least.
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@AustinL0926
I didn’t say it was out of frustration, the fact that it is calculated is actually my point. Again you have nothing to lose in this situation. As scum if you are hammered here you just save yourself time from a failed bus, or you get a mislynch that you feel you can easily justify. I’m hoping town is smarter than that though if your plan does go through and you manage to mislynch me instead of getting a trade with your role.
Either way I’ve proven that this one for or. With your role trade is absolutely the best way to go for town so I’ll follow through no matter what. If we’re gonna do this let’s do it.
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@Lunatic
I think you're bluffing about hammering as well. Unvote if you want to really prove it.
I don’t see a harm in lynching Austin. If he’s town, he can potentially kill a scum. If he’s scum, then only one left.
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@Lunatic
Suffice it to say that I'm coming back to this just now and still trying to process all of this. What I was responding to from you earlier wasn't so much that you were scumreading him - having re-read the post, it didn't come off as scumreading - but just the long explanation of how Austin designed roles that kind of look similar to the role Savant claimed. I agree that he designs roles that bear some similarity to Savant's, so the logic makes sense now that I look it back over, even if it felt like a lot to post for just second-guessing a townread.
I know you've since posted more behavioral reads on Austin's responses, particularly in response to your VTL, so I'll dig through them in more detail when I get home. On its face, I'm not sure why Austin would try to make a statement by taking you out with him if he believes you're both town, but I'd like to have a closer look at these interactions before I come to any conclusions.
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@whiteflame
I think Luna is scum. I'll post more when I get back home, about to take a test
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@JoeBob
I guarantee a scum would not be the last on that wagon. Pretty much if he's town, then scum knows he's most likely honest about his role.
...
There's a lot of good scum claims on the field right now.
- Barney, decoy, really? Who would just go to someone's house, and do nothing and hope someone else kills them?
- Lunatic... Actually I don't know, I just keep hoping we're finally going to see a plaque doctor! More likely, he gets some bonus for lynching whomever he protected the night before (if it's protection at all).
- Austin, the only person who doesn't move. But with the dead scum being a ninja, I'm sure we'd spot it if he does move.
- Whiteflame, honestly a gut feeling he's bad. To not use his ability, is anti-town IMO. Anyways, back to theme this was supposed to take... If he was ever spotted visiting the deceased, his role would explain it.
- Moozer, will always have a reason to visit the person most likely to be killed.
- Joebob, scum can always fake reading alignments (I do believe the claim, but I also believe we should always have a smidge of doubt)
- Vader, has a build in excuse for not dying even if he targets the NK victim.
Anyone object to killing Austin and Lunatic on alternating days? They're going to act like gladiators today anyways... Also really curious what Luna's power is, so putting Austin down first (plus, he was going for town cred a little too hard earlier)
VTL Austin
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@Barney
Thanks for the vote, but I think your plan is a bit confused. If you're fine with taking out me and Luna anyway, then you should force Luna to hammer today.
Since I'm a Super Saint, that will reflexively kill him and we'll both be off the table.
Also unvote to prevent someone from accidentally derphammering and getting themselves killed. I'm at L - 2 right now and need Luna to be the hammer.
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@Barney
It’s my role justification I claimed DP1 btw
Austin might be an Executioner with this reasoning and when he claimed
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@Vader
What is an executioner role?
I think Austin is the executioner. There’s no way Barney doesn’t CC if Luna flips and there’s no reason to believe Luna willingly CC’s Savant as scum. The sudden shift make me believe that Austin is a 3p executioner
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@AustinL0926
I could be thinking of the wrong role, but if you lynch someone you win the game. A 3P role
Pie also doesn’t specify if 3p is in this game like he did in the last game. I also Pie does have 3p roles in his games at times. I could see Austin being that sneaky role but I’m gonna read more but the sudden shift baffles me
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@Vader
I mean, if that was the case, I wouldn't be trying to get Luna to hammer me, would I?
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@Vader
Luna is absolutely sneaky enough to CC a partner who's already going down anyway. I give him little towncred for that.
Official Vote Count:
Austin (2/4) - Lunatic, Barney
Whiteflame (1/4) - Moozer
Austin (2/4) - Lunatic, Barney
Whiteflame (1/4) - Moozer
Hmmmm….
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@Lunatic
@AustinL0926
Alright, trying to get my thoughts together, and since the attention is on Austin, I'm going to start there before dinner.
The way this back-and-forth between Luna and Austin has shaped up comes as a result of Luna providing his extended thoughts on Austin in post #61, where he mainly gives reasons why he still considered Austin potential scum, and Austin's frustration over Luna's decision not to full claim. I understand the reasons why Luna clarified his thoughts on Austin and why he's not outing his full claim. I don't think Luna's clarifying his role meaningfully helps town given the CC (I don't think he'd do that to his own scum partner), and I don't think it clashes with my claim.
That's where this should have ended, but then Luna gets frustrated that Austin's continuing to push on him, and Austin calls for more votes on Luna before we start this now prolonged push on Austin. I don't know what reasons Austin has for sussing Luna at this point (he mentioned having reasons earlier, but hasn't posted them yet), but Luna's my strongest townread at the moment based on the CC. I can see some possibility of him CCing him for the towncred, but especially given that scum could ask about two specific roles, I don't buy that he would work this hard to cover it up afterward.
So it's really just a question of whether I think Austin is town. Given that Luna's been hinting at an unknown issue with his role for a while, I think it's anti-town to insist on the claim, even though I understood the initial impetus. Pushing then to have himself lynched to test the resolve of the people on his wagon seems more likely to end in two dead town than anything else. I see it as more likely that Austin is just venting his frustrations poorly, but I could see how the role could have been designed to dissuade a lynch and this behavior is at least detrimental to town. Luna's right that he's not one of the five brothers, but neither are Vader or Barney and at least Austin's claim is the commander-in-chief for the Pandavas. So, at least right now, I can see a better case for pushing on him than anyone else, though I've still got to go back through the DP and write out my other reads.
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@Lunatic
VTL Luna
Sorry, but you can claim all the behavioral reasons you want, it makes 0 sense for Austin to be the first one to try and hammer his teammate. Later in the game maybe, but first round? no way. He has been acting very scummy, but I think he has enough of a pass for this DP at least. If your town, I'll start to consider him.
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@whiteflame
Don't think your off the hook tho. I still totally want a claim out of you.
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@Barney
Your role would be much better if scum didn't know.I tactically disagree with your choice to not protect yourself. Anyone might be scum, and getting them to kill themselves would be epic.
Also, wanted to address this before I get back to reading. I think what you're assuming is that I could force scum who is committing the NK to become the target of said NK. I asked Pie about that, and he said that the role wouldn't work that way. I would still be killed.
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@Moozer325
Don't think your off the hook tho. I still totally want a claim out of you.
...but I did. It's been mentioned multiple times.
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@whiteflame
sorry bout' that, I just looked at barney's thing where he compiles everyone's claim. Sorry.
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@whiteflame
Wallpost incoming. Italicized are your words.
The way this back-and-forth between Luna and Austin has shaped up comes as a result of Luna providing his extended thoughts on Austin in post #61, where he mainly gives reasons why he still considered Austin potential scum, and Austin's frustration over Luna's decision not to full claim. I understand the reasons why Luna clarified his thoughts on Austin and why he's not outing his full claim. I don't think Luna's clarifying his role meaningfully helps town given the CC (I don't think he'd do that to his own scum partner), and I don't think it clashes with my claim.
I wanted Luna's claim because Pie tends to use nonstandard roles, or nonstandard role names for standard roles - e.g. Joebob's witness, which is literally equivalent to a cop. I see very little utility for town!Luna to hide this, but there is a clear motivation for scum!Luna to do so.
That's where this should have ended, but then Luna gets frustrated that Austin's continuing to push on him, and Austin calls for more votes on Luna before we start this now prolonged push on Austin. I don't know what reasons Austin has for sussing Luna at this point (he mentioned having reasons earlier, but hasn't posted them yet),
I initially FOSed Luna because I think his reasoning for why I could potentially be scum were crappy. I don't mind people pushing on me, it's not like I'm an Innocent Child. But when that push is combined with some of the worst logic I've seen in my time here on this site, then I become suspicious.
First of all, I already mentioned that I'm familiar with Mafiascum flavor roles, which is where I get inspiration for my setups. Non-self-targeting is literally not a modifier. Furthermore, Normal rules on Mafiascum generally prohibit doctors or the like from targeting themselves anyway. There would be no reason whatsoever for me to tell Savant to claim that.
NINJA EDIT AS I'M REVIEWING THIS POST: It actually makes complete sense for Luna to have told Savant to do this deliberately in order to frame me. Notice the careful progression of his thoughts in order to make his "realization" seem natural. Absolutely devious plan by Luna imo.
That alone wasn't enough for me to scumpile Luna - he was in my POE before and in my POE after. However, his response raised alarm bells. Luna can get aggressive as fuck when he is scum. You saw that in the last game, where Luna went all lunatic on you because you weren't voting Barney like he wanted.
Scum have both the power and detriment of having too much information. Scum!Luna knows that I'm town. He needs to invent reasons why I'm scum. He struggles to do this, and needs to resort to faking outrage.
And that intimidation shit isn’t going to work on me. As far as your requests for more information go, you can kindly go fuck yourself. If you wanna escalate this into something more. I’ll gladly take you to school and we can clutter this day phase with 1-200 pages of wifom arguments. I’ve done the same shit with pie. - LUNATIC
Luna's my strongest townread at the moment based on the CC. I can see some possibility of him CCing him for the towncred, but especially given that scum could ask about two specific roles, I don't buy that he would work this hard to cover it up afterward.
With all due respect, I think you know better than this. Savant was going down no matter what. This is an objective fact and I'd love to see anyone (Luna included) take me up on this. Tell me, if Luna hadn't CC'd and did his best to defend Savant, what would have happened?
With that in mind, Luna had no reason not to pile on his partner to extract maximum towncred. A hammer isn't enough - but a counterclaim certainly seems like it. Frankly, it's unbelievable that you're giving him more towncred for CCing a dying man than me for flashleading the wagon on Savant and pushing on him throughout the whole day.
So it's really just a question of whether I think Austin is town. Given that Luna's been hinting at an unknown issue with his role for a while, I think it's anti-town to insist on the claim, even though I understood the initial impetus.
Everyone else is full-claiming. Luna hasn't. Pretending that there's some problem with his claim is the perfect way to stall in order for time to create a better claim.
Pushing then to have himself lynched to test the resolve of the people on his wagon seems more likely to end in two dead town than anything else. I see it as more likely that Austin is just venting his frustrations poorly, but I could see how the role could have been designed to dissuade a lynch and this behavior is at least detrimental to town.
One town dead, one scum dead. Endgame and town win. I don't see the problem.
Listen to me here. Luna planned this out perfectly. He planned out a claim with Savant beforehand in order to frame me with that crappy modifier logic. But since he isn't a Mafiascum style mod, he doesn't take care to choose the correct modifiers (or, in this case, none at all would be the technical solution)
I hate to use out-of-game influence, but look at Luna's work schedule.Savant's period of flailing was exactly while Luna was asleep. When he comes back, he realizes, "Oh shit, I'm losing a partner on D1." He CCs Savant because he knows it's unlikely there's another protective role, and look how much towncred it gains him for literally zero work.
Then, going into D2, he puts himself in a very townread position, and tries to expand POE to include myself (and Joebob, for some bizarre reason). His mistake was being too obvious with it. At this point, we need to either lynch him or let him lynch me. Period.
Here’s why we should just get rid of both of us right now.
Austin is new but he is in this “my shit doesn’t stink mood” because he was correct in one lynch. I actually suspect a bus here. It if he isn’t bussing and is just town, he really desperately needs this ego check. I’ve been around the block enough times to see how this plays out. Royalpaladin, drafterman, Mikal, you always get one. This player plays in a way that makes them think because they are right once or twice they can get extremely tunnel vision every single time and basically bully and manipulate people into following them, and the second that doesn’t work out they act like Austin is acting now.
I’m putting an end to that shit right now. I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again, teach these young whippersnappers a fucking lesson. Austin can get us both killed and sit here and argue with me about how right he was in the endgame while learning 1 v 1s never benefit town. If there’s any time to teach him that lesson it’s now. Chances are he’s actually scum doing this so it’s probably not a big deal anyway, because I see scum behave this way ten times more than town.
If he isn’t scum though it still is a good time to teach him this lesson because he isn’t acknowledging that I even could be town.
That’s the difference here. I on the other hand know that he could be town and just being a Mikal here. Austin remember that guy Elminster you were talking about when you were reading games? That’s exactly who I am talking about. We had to lynch that guy over and over again to teach him a lesson and I’ll do the same thing to you right now.
We can do it as many times and as many games as you want until we shut that fucking ego of yours down.
Town can afford it this game so I am especially down with it. And it will free up some time for me to do other things so it’s a win win. You can call it a dick measuring contest, and it kind of is, but only because Austin is making it that way. So if we’re gonna do this let’s do this when town can afford it.
Barney suggesting we do it one at a time is scummy af btw because that guarantees mafia get two kills out of it if we’re both town instead of one and it gives them the win. Barney is probably scum for even suggesting it. But I’ll let town figure that out at this point. The game is now daddy lunatic teaching young Austin a valuable lesson in pride.
Approximately 48 hours remaining