Chess Mafia DP2

Author: AustinL0926

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Lunatic
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…I’m sincerely so lost on this portion of your post. I said that my use of the chess engine wasn’t considered to be movement. That is information I did not reveal back when I stated what happened at the start of the DP. Barney targeted me with what he claims was a Motion Detector that didn’t register movement. 

So, what you’re assuming is that, somehow, Barney discerned from the limited information I gave within the DP that I used the chess engine, but in my use of it, I didn’t move? He somehow figured that out? Also, to be very clear about this, we’re talking about bastard modding either way. Austin delivered this info to me after the start of the DP, basically confirming that a role was used on me that fit that description. Either the person who used it was scum or they were town, but the confirmation was there regardless. The series of events fits far better for a town Barney than it does for a scum Barney.

I don’t understand how you are lost or confused. You revealed all this on the first page of day phase 2, where you claimed having information that you knew you weren’t roleblocked, and now are acting like Barney revealing he is a town roleblocker confirms him. How are you jumping to that conclusion or the conclusion he is town at all? How does it fit town Barney more than scum Barney?
Vader
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@Lunatic
It’s more of a descriptor than it is physical. When I asked Austin he said it would float under descriptor
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@Vader
Please just out your role
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@Lunatic
Yeah just gonna come out and claim Even Night Voyeur. On even nights I visit a player to see what actions were performed on them. I was going to test this out by picking someone at random and outting them. 

This is also why I was sus of JoeBob because I thought his claim and mine would be very OP, but considering how many logical inconsistencies there are with this game, I think that it just happens that balancing and other things were off
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@Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
Justification is that whites typically start first in a game and you can observe what opening strategy an opponent does in the game and act upon it with your own  
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@Lunatic
I don’t understand how you are lost or confused. You revealed all this on the first page of day phase 2, where you claimed having information that you knew you weren’t roleblocked, and now are acting like Barney revealing he is a town roleblocker confirms him. How are you jumping to that conclusion or the conclusion he is town at all? How does it fit town Barney more than scum Barney?
So, a: it's not the first page of DP2. You're thinking of this post, where I detailed my results from the previous NP.

b: you're thinking of this post from page 2 where I said this:

Also, I was told this after the fact: the action I took was not considered an "active action." I asked for clarification, and what that means is it doesn't behave like a normal night action. It wouldn't have been affected by a roleblocker or redirector (yes, he did say that specifically). So, while a Godfather might fool it, I think we can confidently say that the result is the one I got on Earth, not the result of some change of target.
What I said, very clearly, was that I couldn't have been RB'd. Not that I wasn't RB'd at all.

Also, note two things: the absence of a Motion Detector among the claims that wouldn't work against it (it's in my PM, I left that information out), and the absence of any statement that I didn't actually move when I used it.

c: Let's put all this together. So, according to you, Barney somehow intuited that I didn't move. He specifically chose the Motion Detector, the one role listed in my PM from Austin that I didn't state would be ineffective when used on me, so he just lucked out picking that single role to use on me that Austin had confirmed wouldn't produce a result if used on me. That's the only way Barney's scum based on your logic: he somehow figured all this out based on a pair of posts that gave none of this information away. It has nothing to do with him claiming town RB. It never has.


Vader
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I don’t buy Barney’s claim at all from what I am aware considering I see two people claimed a tactic from what I know. But I am going to analyze what WF said on why he thinks Barney is likely town because that’s all I’ve gotten and right now I see no reason as to why I shouldn’t vote Barney
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Regards to Barney’s claim. I still don’t understand why he needed to gatekeep this information this ~30ish hours in the game. His role is a weak role and the only part that is useful is a roleblock and that is an SOP in of itself IMO.  
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@Barney
Even night as claimed. Sorry I missed this but I was jumping post to post after moving in
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@whiteflame
I don’t understand how you are lost or confused. You revealed all this on the first page of day phase 2, where you claimed having information that you knew you weren’t roleblocked, and now are acting like Barney revealing he is a town roleblocker confirms him. How are you jumping to that conclusion or the conclusion he is town at all? How does it fit town Barney more than scum Barney?
So, a: it's not the first page of DP2. You're thinking of this post, where I detailed my results from the previous NP.

b: you're thinking of this post from page 2 where I said this:

Also, I was told this after the fact: the action I took was not considered an "active action." I asked for clarification, and what that means is it doesn't behave like a normal night action. It wouldn't have been affected by a roleblocker or redirector (yes, he did say that specifically). So, while a Godfather might fool it, I think we can confidently say that the result is the one I got on Earth, not the result of some change of target.
What I said, very clearly, was that I couldn't have been RB'd. Not that I wasn't RB'd at all.

Also, note two things: the absence of a Motion Detector among the claims that wouldn't work against it (it's in my PM, I left that information out), and the absence of any statement that I didn't actually move when I used it. 

c: Let's put all this together. So, according to you, Barney somehow intuited that I didn't move. He specifically chose the Motion Detector, the one role listed in my PM from Austin that I didn't state would be ineffective when used on me, so he just lucked out picking that single role to use on me that Austin had confirmed wouldn't produce a result if used on me. That's the only way Barney's scum based on your logic: he somehow figured all this out based on a pair of posts that gave none of this information away. It has nothing to do with him claiming town RB. It never has.

You keep calling his role a motion detector, which completely ignores the second half of it. Not even Barney called his role a motion detector when he outed it. Mechanically it works similar, but you are grasping for it to confirm him because it was mentioned. Again we’d have to buy complete bastard mod behavior from Austin to straight up confirm another player to another player. The fact that you don’t see any way he could be mafia from those statements is frightening if you are actually town. Also why not consider the possibility that he isn’t lying about his role and mechanics and could still be mafia? Why are you so dead set he is town?
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@Lunatic
So reading Luna’s justification it seems like his RB was considered optional?? I am lost but Luna if you can confirm this is the case lmk. If this is the case I am 100% willing to lynch Barney. I highly doubt that the existence of 2 RB’s that are considered SOP are in this case because at that point it’s just bastard modding, which I could see Austin do without knowing but damn. I also kind of connected the dots of certain interactions in this game and I sort of know Luna was probably given something from Pie. The soft claims on the first page of charity and Pie laughing were sus but I let it go but now that I see it it’s probably important to reveal. If we assume that Earth is telling the truth about WF we are assuming that then there’s 2 roles that “give” people something from someone else?? I find it hard to believe in this game  

Vader
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Plus Luna had a hard town tell on Pie for a “different reason.” Since he said he was voluntarily donating I connected the dots. 
Lunatic
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I am not sure I’ve ever seen or played with a voyeur. At least not off the top of my head. My initial thoughts are that it is a bit convenient and explains why he doesn’t have np1 results to confirm him. Odd/even claims are always a bit sussy. However it does seem to fit the claim, and it’s a claim that can be easily proven fake by next day phase if he isn’t convienently roleblocked. Unless the mafia actually have a mafia voyeur ability, in which case it’s just role confirmation =\= affiliation confirmation.

At the very least I will say it eases my concerns but about the joebob flip flop because it does make sense to be suspicious of a tracker if that’s your actual role. However we now have quite a bit of investigative claims on the table and we have to figure out how it all balances if it does. Part of me feels like it’s too many investigators for town and that one of these is scum. I’m still leaning Barney for that for reasons mentioned earlier.
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@Vader
Even Night Voyeur
Cool power

You can of course verify the claims of anyone who admits to having performed night actions. So whiteflame , Earth, or myself.

There are of course other uses as well.



Dashboard
PLAYER                        ROLE                            CHAR__________          _NP1                                              NP2
2. Pie                       "confirmable"                    ???                                       ???
3. whiteflame       "confirmable"               "tactic"                     Copped Earth Inno
4. Moozer              1XBP+Protector            Castling                                  N/A
6. Lunatic                      ???                                  ELO                                 Something
7. Vader              Even Night Voyeur      Black pieces                            N/A
8. Barney                     MD/RB                         The Pin                            wf/pie (fail)
9. Earth                "chess engine"              Stockfish                Gave WF chess engine

Killed/Lynched
1. Savant              Miller+Soldier                 Pawn
5. Joebob            Flipped Tracker     Algebraic Notation

whiteflame
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@Lunatic
You keep calling his role a motion detector, which completely ignores the second half of it. Not even Barney called his role a motion detector when he outed it. Mechanically it works similar, but you are grasping for it to confirm him because it was mentioned. Again we’d have to buy complete bastard mod behavior from Austin to straight up confirm another player to another player. The fact that you don’t see any way he could be mafia from those statements is frightening if you are actually town. Also why not consider the possibility that he isn’t lying about his role and mechanics and could still be mafia? Why are you so dead set he is town?
He targeted me. He didn’t see that I moved. That’s either a Tracker, a Motion Detector, or some derivation thereof. I sincerely do not give a fuck if his role actually says “Motion Detector” - it does not change much since, like I said, it still means that Barney got an accurate result when I used my role, which I would argue is not what someone else would expect upon seeing the information I was given.

As for his behavior being bastard mod, I sincerely have no idea how you want me to interpret the information I was given by Austin, but I was given that information. Notably, though, I’m not confirming anyone based chiefly on the fact that I was that I was told this info after the start of the DP. The confirmation is the result of my withholding information from the PM I received from Austin, seeing Barney’s role function in a way that matches the result, and using that as a basis for viewing his night actions as plausibly matching what he said he did. Sincerely, if you have a way to see him as scum with the information I’ve divulged that doesn’t require him to make several very fundamental assumptions that were entirely left out of my posts up to that point in this DP, I’m all ears.
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Anyway, I’m at a party for the next couple of hours. I’ll check in when I get back and give thoughts on Luna and Vader’s claims.
Vader
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Yea I think I’ve seen enough. 

VTL Barney

If Barney turns scum, WF is no longer in my town pile 
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@Vader
Reason being?
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@Earth
Read my role + what I said 251, and what I said about Roleblockers. That’s my justification. There isn’t a strong enough case against Barney where we can confirm his actions and his hesistancy to claim a role that’s relatively weak. 2 RB type characters, 2 “giving roles” and a bunch of investigative which is convienantly a “weak” flavor. Yea not buying it. Plus everyone seems to have claims different to a degree. His is the only one that has multiple people who claimed it.
AustinL0926
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VOTECOUNT:

Barney (3/4): Pie, Lunatic, Vader
Pie (1/4): Moozer
Lunatic (1/4): whiteflame


Who could it be?




whiteflame
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Alright, so at this point, I think it's worth spelling out the series of events that lead me to townread Barney, since the explanation is kind of scattered at this point and I want to see some direct responses.

At the beginning of the DP, I stated that I had received a "chess engine" and had used it to find that Earth was innocent.

Shortly thereafter, I was informed by Austin that the role I was given had some extra elements to how it works. I provided some of those elements: that it doesn't count as an "active action," and that the role wouldn't be affected by RBs or redirects. I specifically excluded an important element: that Motion Detector and similar roles would not work, either, which suggested that I my use of the "chess engine" would not result in my movement to my target.

Later in the DP, Barney claims a role that somehow monitored my movement and, if I had moved, would have allowed him to use a paired RB. It doesn't matter if the role is the Motion Detector, it matters that it functions in a similar manner: by informing the user that I had (or in this case, hadn't) moved. He stated that I had not moved.


That seems pretty straightforward to me. I'm not assuming any bastard modding, I'm not assuming the use of a given role based on what was sent to me by Austin, I'm only stating what happened and what was claimed. It seems pretty straightforward if Barney's town.

Now, let's assume Barney's scum. That would mean that he saw my claim at the beginning of the DP and made the decision to select a role that would tell him if I had moved. Based on the information I had provided up to that point, that would have been a supremely ballsy move. He knew I had used a role like Cop on Earth. He knew that that would likely result in movement on my part. He nonetheless chose to claim a role that would monitor movement and a target for that role that had actively claimed they had targeted another player successfully. He would have to somehow know in advance that my using the "chess engine" would not act as a movement. Can anyone explain to me how he would have intuited that from any of the posts I made before he clarified his role? Because I can't. Maybe this is just the craziest scum tactic I've ever seen and Barney just targeted me with something else during the NP, failed, and just went for it for unknown reasons. If so, more power to him, that's quite the gambit. 


I'm being genuine here, guys: can someone explain how it is more (or even equally) likely that a scum Barney would choose to claim this role (the weak information role that tracked my movement), this use of his role (targeting me, the player who had already claimed to get results from Earth), and this result (no movement) with the amount of information I had given him? Because, sincerely, I don't see it.
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I recognize that people have other valid reasons to consider him, even if I feel most of them are either mod psych or just sussing a weird role (we've been down this road before). And I recognize that some of my thinking on this was initially focused on reading into responses from Austin a little too deeply.

But we can and should consider his claim, his choice of target, and his results. If someone can explain how all those things make as much sense with him being scum as they do with him being town, and I can make sense of your argument, then I'll hammer.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@ILikePie5
I'll tag each of you to read the above. Someone, give me a better explanation for how this all went down than "Barney role-copped Earth," which is the best I can come up with.

 
Vader
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I’m drunk rn later I’ll explain lol
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@whiteflame
He targeted me. He didn’t see that I moved. That’s either a Tracker, a Motion Detector, or some derivation thereof. I sincerely do not give a fuck if his role actually says “Motion Detector” - it does not change much since, like I said, it still means that Barney got an accurate result when I used my role, which I would argue is not what someone else would expect upon seeing the information I was given.
I just find it funny that you ignore any variable that could mean barney is scumLike maybe him asking the mod how a role like yours would work and whether it would count as a visit. He could have gotten the same answer as you from the mod before claiming his result. He could have been lucky in guessing that it didn't count as a visit. Your are dis-regarding him way too easily. What do you think about the two town roleblocker thing?
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@whiteflame
I'm being genuine here, guys: can someone explain how it is more (or even equally) likely that a scum Barney would choose to claim this role (the weak information role that tracked my movement), this use of his role (targeting me, the player who had already claimed to get results from Earth), and this result (no movement) with the amount of information I had given him? Because, sincerely, I don't see it.
There's a million ways barney could be scum and you are ignoring them all. 
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@Lunatic
I just find it funny that you ignore any variable that could mean barney is scum
I'm literally asking you to explain what variables you see that could explain these results, and your response is to rub in my face that I didn't think of them. Why?

So your answers come down to:

Like maybe him asking the mod how a role like yours would work and whether it would count as a visit. He could have gotten the same answer as you from the mod before claiming his result. 
The mod could have offered up essential details of how a role he specifically defined works such that he effectively received the same information the person who used it got... then he sat on that information for much of the DP, only choosing to reveal it under great pressure later. I guess if we're assuming bastard modding to the extreme where everyone who asks receives a detailed set of information about how a role works...? You were so dismissive of the mod actively giving information that could solve the game, but now you're talking as though Austin's giving that information out to everyone who asks.

He could have been lucky in guessing that it didn't count as a visit.
That's an incredibly lucky guess considering he had no basis for making that call and none of what I said during the DP before that hinted that my using it didn't count as a visit. Almost any other choice would have been a far safer bet, but you want me to believe he just lucked into the perfect guess with the greatest degree of risk?

Your are dis-regarding him way too easily.
I'm not disregarding anything, that's why I'm making a big fucking deal out of this and asking you, specifically, what could explain it. So far, despite your claim that there are "a million ways barney could be scum," I'm not seeing a lot of explanations for this series of events.

What do you think about the two town roleblocker thing?
I'm still not clear that there are two RBs. Both you and Vader have mentioned this. The only explanation I've seen for why there must be someone other than Barney who has an RB is the somewhat confusing breakdown of the Mathematician role you mentioned before, and I'm not sure how much I buy of that to begin with.


Anyway, this is my last post for the night. I'll come back to this in the morning, but I still lack a good explanation for this series of events.
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About 18 hours remain in the DP.


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Dashboard
PLAYER                        ROLE                            CHAR__________          _NP1                                              NP2
2. Pie                        "confirmable"                    ???                                       ???
3. whiteflame       "confirmable"               "tactic"                     Copped Earth Inno
4. Moozer              1XBP+Protector            Castling                                  N/A
6. Lunatic               Mathematician               ELO                                 Something and RBed
7. Vader                  Even Night Voyeur      Black pieces                            N/A
8. Barney                     MD/RB                         The Pin                            wf/pie (fail)
9. Earth                "chess engine"              Stockfish                Gave WF chess engine

Killed/Lynched
1. Savant              Miller+Soldier                 Pawn
5. Joebob            Flipped Tracker     Algebraic Notation


Reads:
Scum pile:
  • Lunatic - Mainly he's one of the best players, and his performance is quite weak this game, to include buddying an attempted mislynch. He even hints that he's a RB to support said mislynch, then changes to mathematician (I honestly started writing this message before catching that post where he full claimed). The claim that Lunatic and Pie communicated their roles via a South Park clip of Randy Marsh getting charity shamed, and a still image of Bernie Sanders, I do not buy. Nor do I buy that Pie roleblocked him, he didn't give this information, also is immune to RB but his power which doesn't visit anyone counts as active for my motion detector...
    As a small bonus, DP1 he initiated the wagon which mislynched Joebob.
  • Pie - Basically either Pie is scum, or is really bad (not to say outright horrible) at this game. The truly excessive tunneling, and doubling down any time he got anything from it... The result of actually giving him information isn't shifting his vote to pressure anyone who has given less information, it's a desperate push for a mislynch. While mislynching me is not as easy as pie (pun intended), he's used me being busy DP1 to justify it when that has zero barring on if I am or am not town.
    And of course the communication with Lunatic should speak for itself., to include Lunatic outright telling everyone that Pie was not really tunneling... If nothing else were true, it'd still be true that Pie is obsessively tunnely on me.
    Lunatic says Pie is a RB and "100% town," whereas Pie strongly hints to be an inventor. Too damned much doesn't fit.
    Regarding Joebob, while Lunatic initiated the wagon, Pie largely lead it, even claiming he was certain Joebob was scum (others seemed to more of accept killing a low utility townie because not lynching is not an option to most).

Lean scum:
  • Vader - If he's town, he literally has the power to confirm me, as I've pointed out to him. But he stays on the wagon because "I’m drunk rn later I’ll explain lol" which is 50/50 on how he is when drinking. I would hope he's a careful drunk who'd rather avoid a mislynch and wait until morning before voting (or not) when it is well reasoned.

Lean town:
  • Moozer - Quick to out his power, and as a new player should not be first on a chopping block. That said, buddy,  the game will likely end DP3, so use your powers even if they're suboptimal choices.

Town:
  • whiteflame - While verifying earth was suboptimal, even great players make mistakes. He sees through the spaghetti mess, to the point that if I'm scum he'd then be a likely mislynch.
  • Earth - copped innocent. Otherwise he'd be null for saying so little. ... Crackpot theory: he's a godfather


VTL Lunatic
Barney
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@Vader
@Moozer325
Vader, if you use your power on whiteflame, you can confirm that I used my role on him (well at least that someone used the pin on him).
Were I scum, I'd have used the first half of my power on the other scum while they carried out the NK to guarantee the RB triggered.

Moozer, if you use your power on Vader, you guarantee his survival to out the aforementioned information.