Your argument with each other for the last two pages was confusing. Let me try to explain what I think Lunatic is trying to say. Both of you can correct me if I am wrong.
Whiteflame revealed that he got a chess engine and accepted to use it at the expense of his own action. With that power, he chose to investigate Earth and got an innocent. Then, Whiteflame gets a message from Austin saying the investigation was not considered an active action, and thus, could not be Roleblocked, Redirected, etc. Great. Hope we’re all on the same page here.
Then Barney claims “weak investigator roleblocker hybrid,” and he explains that he targets two people. If selected Person A moves, then selected Person B gets roleblocked. Now after that, Pie goes in and says how its like a Motion Detector/Roleblocker hybrid. Then, Whiteflame says this:
That at least makes sense with the role. I haven't actually asked whether my use of the chess engine counts as a move. I'm going to inquire about that. Who else did you select? And would that register as you visiting both players, even if the RB fails?
This is an odd statement from Whiteflame. Austin already told Whiteflame that the investigation did not count as an active action, which means that it wouldn’t be detected likely. Still Whiteflame said he would ask the mod—I don’t think I have seen the answer yet that Austin game. Nor have I seen Barney answer the question. Great, we’re on the same page hopefully.
Now, here’s the next interesting part:
So, I'll be blunt: I'm not voting Barney unless something dramatic changes. When Austin sent me that PM detailing how my investigation worked (after the fact), I assumed it was because someone targeted me. It's possible that the person who did that targeted me with an RB, that's literally on the list of actions he said would not affect mine. What was also on the list, and what I left off just in case it came up, was Motion Detector, the role that Barney just claimed.
Whiteflame says Austin specifically mentioned a Motion Detector. The problem here is that Barney never claimed Motion Detector. I brought that up as it sounded familiar since I look for roles all the time for my games. Functionally though, it is not a Motion Detector. The other half of the role is missing—motion detectors detect whether the person moves or whether someone visits that person. Barney never said Motion Detector, it was me.
Following that, Lunatic says this, which I agree with:
At most this should be null. Barney is claiming information that's been made publicly known in the day phase since the first page. It's funny you would jump to the conclusion he was town and mod-confirmed to you here only. That would be rather convenient, but yeah doesn't seem like Austin would do that.
There is guarantee that Barney is town which I mentioned earlier. Barney could also be scum and furious as to why his Roleblocker did not work on you even though you used a Cop action. What’s also convenient on Barney’s part is that he targeted you in the first place knowing full well that your use of the cop does not count as an active action and thus could not be detected. Note that the only other player who confirmed to move was Earth, but if scum Barney fake claiming a role similar to MD said he targeted Earth, he would have to justify why I wasn’t roleblocked without knowing my role. It also explains why he took an eternity to full claim. Austin’s comment to you is not indicative of Barney’s affiliation—just that he targeted you with some action.
Then there’s back and forth about the whole movement aspect. Whiteflame, you said that Austin told you that the investigation did not count as an active action and thus could not be roleblocked, etc. The logical conclusion from that is that you wouldn’t move either since the roleblocked/redirector requires you to move in the first place. Barney also picked up this here before the argument between you two even began:
Austin messaged you about it already, (presumably) to prevent a mess wherein I accused you of not moving, when that item didn't count as an active move.
Here’s the next post from Whiteflame:
So, what you’re assuming is that, somehow, Barney discerned from the limited information I gave within the DP that I used the chess engine, but in my use of it, I didn’t move? He somehow figured that out? Also, to be very clear about this, we’re talking about bastard modding either way. Austin delivered this info to me after the start of the DP, basically confirming that a role was used on me that fit that description. Either the person who used it was scum or they were town, but the confirmation was there regardless. The series of events fits far better for a town Barney than it does for a scum Barney.
Couple of things to note here. Barney actually could and did assume that because you were not an active action, the action does not count as move. Asking the mod that is an easy fix. The series of events though is not indicative of affiliation at all. Scum Barney would be pissed his roleblock or action or whatever did not work. You are right in there’s confirmation there’s possible confirmation that someone visited you but their action did not work because the investigation was not considered active. So when Lunatic says this:
How are you jumping to that conclusion or the conclusion he is town at all? How does it fit town Barney more than scum Barney?
It’s a perfectly logical question to ask.
Here’s Whiteflame’s next post:
c: Let's put all this together. So, according to you, Barney somehow intuited that I didn't move. He specifically chose the Motion Detector, the one role listed in my PM from Austin that I didn't state would be ineffective when used on me, so he just lucked out picking that single role to use on me that Austin had confirmed wouldn't produce a result if used on me. That's the only way Barney's scum based on your logic: he somehow figured all this out based on a pair of posts that gave none of this information away. It has nothing to do with him claiming town RB. It never has.
The first part is basic infrencing and even asking mod, which is not hard to do. Second, Barney didn’t even claim Motion Detector. The mechanics aren’t similar at all. Barney explicitly stated weak investigator and roleblocker, not MD and Roleblocker. Second the luck factor is not there because he didn’t claim MD in the first place. He only claimed half of the role. Basically I agree with Lunatic in his response to this post.
He targeted me. He didn’t see that I moved. That’s either a Tracker, a Motion Detector, or some derivation thereof. I sincerely do not give a fuck if his role actually says “Motion Detector” - it does not change much since, like I said, it still means that Barney got an accurate result when I used my role, which I would argue is not what someone else would expect upon seeing the information I was given.
But again—it doesn’t indicate his affiliation. And the argument that the inference doesn’t make sense is contradicted by the fact that he could’ve asked the mod or just realized that if it can’t be roleblocked, then it can’t be motion detected. Furthermore, it’s possible he could be a MD/RB but be scum. He can only target you based on all the info that was revealed at that point in time. It’s not affiliation indicative at all.
Now let me address this post by you Whiteflame where you tagged me:
Now, let's assume Barney's scum. That would mean that he saw my claim at the beginning of the DP and made the decision to select a role that would tell him if I had moved.
Not necessarily. Scum Barney would know that his or his partner’s action on you did not work, so they can conclude and ask the mod whether you would move or not.
Based on the information I had provided up to that point, that would have been a supremely ballsy move. He knew I had used a role like Cop on Earth. He knew that that would likely result in movement on my part. He nonetheless chose to claim a role that would monitor movement and a target for that role that had actively claimed they had targeted another player successfully.
But again—he could’ve asked the mod or even guessed that because you could not be roleblocked, you investigation does not count as a visit. Barney even admitted that he thought you did that.
He would have to somehow know in advance that my using the "chess engine" would not act as a movement. Can anyone explain to me how he would have intuited that from any of the posts I made before he clarified his role? Because I can't. Maybe this is just the craziest scum tactic I've ever seen and Barney just targeted me with something else during the NP, failed, and just went for it for unknown reasons. If so, more power to him, that's quite the gambit.
It all comes down to infrencing and the mod. All of the information you’re talking about can be derived from either of those two things. Also at this point, I am presuming Austin got back to you and your investigating did not count as a target.
