A discussion on the trinity - Holy Ghost Father Son

Author: Mall

Posts

Total: 69
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
I like to pick somebody's brain on this.
Somebody that's well versed or has a good understanding on the trinity doctrine.

I just have some questions. The way I titled this I put in that order intentionally.

Everybody that knows a thing or two real well about this, participate.


Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
Join in the forum.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
No takers. 
Not hard questions by the way .
No tricks, no "gotcha" questions.
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
what do you want to talk about the trinity?

the bible says in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus said that "before abraham was around I AM".  "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins". "i am" was a reference to God in the bible 

there are other cryptic passages that say jesus may have not been God, "why call me good? there is none who are good, but God alone". he was implying he was God without stating it. if he's good, he must be God?

but he didn't like claiming to be God. He didn't even like calling himself the son of God, he called himself "son of man", but acknowledged himself to be the son of God when asked. 

in the letters of the bible, from his disciples, it refers to Jesus as 'our lord and God'. etc

i would search the forum from recent dates to look for talk about the trinity. 

i like analogies that a person can be a father, son, and brother, all in one. jesus is a father, he is a son, and the son aspect isn't the father aspect, but they are one person. 

then there are dimensions. jesus is God of this dimension, and the father is the God of another dimension, and they are one but different. 

the idea that there's spirit mind and body, in one person, same as God. three essensces in one being

there's the idea that the trinity is like a three leaf clover. three in one. 

and the spirit enters the son, and the father enters the son, through the spirit. they again are different but the same. 

the trinity is a paradox, a contradiction in human terms. it is an example of the unlimited trying to limit itself. God is unlimited and in this existence he limits himself and creation is limited. the afterlife in God are unlimited. 
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@n8nrgim
When you say of this dimension and that dimension, are you communicating more than one God?

When you say "they are one", is that more than one spirit?

Then you say three essences. What is essence, a nature?
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
the holy spirit i would like to think unites the father and son, but each is distinct. whether we're communicating more than one God or not, is a mystery. it's beyond our understanding.

i like the one analogy i shared, cause it's familial and a more direct comparison. my dad is a father, son, and brother, in one person. the son aspect is not the father aspect, but it's still one person. and the holy spirit is like a family, father, son, adopted brothers of believers. 
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@n8nrgim
So you're saying it's a mystery even to it being one God or more.

Have you been taught about the trinity or only told about it?
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
the teaching is that each part of the trinity is God, and yet they are distinct. it's not a logical syllogism. the father is god, the son is god, but the father isn't the son. that sorta thing. 

i've been taught the trinity more so but i feel i've considered it critically and decided the mystery fits well into life and religious philosphy. before, i didnt think the evidence was that jesus was god, because the bible isn't always clear on that point, or points in another direction. i believe the lack of clarity to those who aren't knowledgeable is because jesus wants to reveal himself throughout a process to those who seek him. 
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Doesn't the Trinity collapse when Jesus on the cross says,  “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@FLRW
Doesn't the Trinity collapse when Jesus on the cross says,  “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

And in the Garden when Jesus  prays to ..... himself !?

Matthew 26:36-46

36 Then Jesus went with the disciples to a place called Gethsemane. He said to them, “Stay here while I go over there and pray.”
37 He took Peter and Zebedee’s two sons with him. He was beginning to feel deep anguish. 38 Then he said to them, “My anguish is so great that I feel as if I’m dying. Wait here, and stay awake with me.”
39 After walking a little farther, he quickly bowed with his face to the ground and prayed, “Father, if it’s possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. But let your will be done rather than mine.”.......

42 Then he went away a second time and prayed, “Father, if this cup cannot be taken away unless I drink it, let your will be done.”

44 After leaving them again, he went away and prayed the same prayer a third time. 

Luke.  And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Yes, he was so terrified of dying that he sweated blood and his prayer - to himself - went unanswered.  Not  a word of comfort from himself... to himself.


Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen
@Mall
@FLRW


.
FLRW,

YOUR LOGICAL QUOTE ABOUT JESUS' TRINITY DOCTRINE:  "Doesn't the Trinity collapse when Jesus on the cross says,  “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Were you referring to this image with Jesus' quote above?  

.
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Yes, Yes I was.
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen
@Mall


.
Stephen,

Regarding your post #10 where you said Jesus was talking to Himself in prayer, is biblically correct relative to the Triune Doctrine, praise!  A lot of dumbfounded pseudo-christians, like Miss Tradesecret, just can't decipher the Trinity of Jesus whereas it is very simple as I have shown below:  


THE TRINITY DOCTRINE OF JESUS THE CHRIST IN A SIMPLE FORM OF UNDERSTANDING:
When Jesus was praying to Himself, a TRUE Christian like myself accepts that the Trinity Doctrine of Jesus is that He is the Father as God, the Son as  God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Barring that these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.  However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5).  Therefore, very simply put,  Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the Father and Son!  To further the Godly Triune premise, the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Ghost is Almighty, but yet there are not three Almighty's but one Almighty. Barring that it is plainly seen that we have three Almighty's, and at the same time, one Almighty! The Triune creed further informs us that the three persons in the Trinity are co-eternal together and coequal. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Ghost is eternal, and yet there are not three eternally, but one eternal. The plain English is, that the three persons in the Trinity are three eternally, and individually considered, and yet they are not three eternally, but one eternal!

Praise logical and factual simple deductions as I have shown above  to simplify Jesus' Trinity Doctrine!

Stephen, as with other situations like the Trinity Doctrine of Jesus within Christianity, you just have to have "faith" that the above SIMPLE FACTUAL statements are true, praise!   https://www.imagebam.com/view/MERR3ZL

.



Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@FLRW
Good question. Why do you ask or what makes you wonder that?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Stephen
Yes the son prayed to the father.

What was your point on mentioning that?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1 Timothy 3:16

Without controversy......it starts with and yet the debate rages on today.

A great mystery but God was manifested in the flesh.

1 John 5 and 7

Where it says these three are one, the Father, the word, the holy Spirit....

My question is ..these three what?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@n8nrgim
Where you taught the trinity from the bible?

If you were taught from the Bible, why didn't it include about the teaching of one God?
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
Yes the son prayed to the father.

What was your point on mentioning that?

And who was "the father" that Jesus was praying to?

Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Stephen
I'll answer with Deuteronomy 6:4.

Hear O Israel , The LORD our God, the LORD is one
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
Yes the son prayed to the father.

What was your point on mentioning that?

And who was "the father" that Jesus was praying to?


I'll answer with Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear O Israel , The LORD our God, the LORD is one

 So are you then  telling me that "the father"  is god?  Yes or No ?

DavidAZZ
DavidAZZ's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 303
0
2
5
DavidAZZ's avatar
DavidAZZ
0
2
5
-->
@Mall
To address your OP on the Trinity:

It was a made up doctrine from ancient religions made to be accepted by the Catholic church to all its members around the time of Constantine being full emperor of the Roman empire.  The reason the Trinity doctrine was so prevalent was because Constantine made paganism illegal and "Christianity" the only religion of Rome.  Pagans flooded in the Roman Church along with all their doctrine.  There was so much turmoil that a council was setup by the church fathers.  It was called the council of Nicaea and there they officially canonized the "two in one" doctrine and later made the Holy Ghost part of that doctrine also, creating the "Holy Trinity".

This Trinity has been a part of almost all ancient religions and can be traced to all local middle eastern and near east religions alike.

The Trinity is not in the Bible, nor the word Trinity. It was all a Catholic invention.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Stephen
I could tell you that but I 'll let 1 Corinthians 8:6 tell you, there is but ONE GOD the father.

Do you see the pattern with this?

This is why this trinity thing is being opened up.

Where is the scripture that says the father is the first , the son is the second and the holy ghost is the third person?

Where did this ranking come from?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@DavidAZZ
So it was a way for pagans to still remain active under the guise of "Christianity" if I understand all this.

So the pagan aimed to take a God not proven to be false to corrupt with falsehood.

My question would be what did it serve the pagan by inventing three personalities in the godhead?

I think it's more to unpack there.

I always thought it was misinterpretation of scripture that perpetuated this doctrine.
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@DavidAZZ
To address your OP on the Trinity:

It was a made up doctrine from ancient religions made to be accepted by the Catholic church to all its members around the time of Constantine being full emperor of the Roman empire.  The reason the Trinity doctrine was so prevalent was because Constantine made paganism illegal and "Christianity" the only religion of Rome.  Pagans flooded in the Roman Church along with all their doctrine.  There was so much turmoil that a council was setup by the church fathers.  It was called the council of Nicaea and there they officially canonized the "two in one" doctrine and later made the Holy Ghost part of that doctrine also, creating the "Holy Trinity".

This Trinity has been a part of almost all ancient religions and can be traced to all local middle eastern and near east religions alike.

The Trinity is not in the Bible, nor the word Trinity. It was all a Catholic invention.

Incorrect.  Prove it. There is no religion in the world, history or otherwise that has anything like the doctrine of the Trinity. People make this assertion quite regularly but as soon as they start producing their so-called earlier Trinities, the difference very quickly becomes apparent. 

The Trinity - as in the Word Trinity - is not mentioned in the Bible. So what? That would be an argument from silence. Yet the concept of the Trinity is inherent from the Creation through to the last page of the NT.    The early Christians did argue over the concept. They needed to grapple with the truth that there is ONE GOD as the Deuteronomy passage articulates and then they needed to grapple with the person Jesus.  It also became clear during these discussions that the Holy Spirit was not the Father nor was he the Son.  Some people suggest he was just a power. Not a personality. Although Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit was a person and had a personality. You can't grieve a power. You can't lie to a power. Yes, both of these terms could just be anthropomorphisms.  And yet the Church determined otherwise. 

The Trinity is a simple concept and yet it is a complex concept.  God is ONE and yet God is Three.  He is the simplest being in that he is spirit. And yet he is the most complex in that he knows all.  It is when humanity misunderstands the Trinity that we fall into error.  If we drift towards the ONE, we become black and white in our thinking. If we drift towards the many, then we become relative in our ideas. The move in the philosophy of the world was a drift from modernism to post-modernism. This is a reflection of a trend from the ONE to the Many.  

The Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Churches. It was not their invention. But nor was it brought from the other religions. 

DavidAZZ
DavidAZZ's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 303
0
2
5
DavidAZZ's avatar
DavidAZZ
0
2
5
-->
@Mall
So it was a way for pagans to still remain active under the guise of "Christianity" if I understand all this.
Not how i see it.  The pagan populace didn't have a choice per that decree.  They had to join up.  The (what we know now as the Catholic church) created these doctrines to allow the general pagan public to easily enter their ranks.  Why would catholic church want this?  Peter talks about evil men doing this for filthy lucre's sake.  M-O-N-E-Y.  Root of all evil I guess.

So the pagan aimed to take a God not proven to be false to corrupt with falsehood.
It wasn't the general pagan population per say, it was the leadership of the Catholic church and Emperor Constantine trying to unify his country.

My question would be what did it serve the pagan by inventing three personalities in the godhead?
The pagans had gods for EVERYTHING.  Look at the Vedic way. They have gods tagged along with everything you can think of.  I think they have around 2000 gods.  So to them, a triune god is not a big deal when you believe in 2000.  

I always thought it was misinterpretation of scripture that perpetuated this doctrine.
I did also until I thought "where did this come from?"  Th early church had no idea of a Triune God nor did the Jews.  It had to perpetuate from somewhere and the roots of it was in paganism.  Now, to say one pagan religion shaped the whole Trinitarian doctrine is not true, but the doctrine itself is a mish-mash of all the local pagan views.
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen
@Mall


.
Stephen, Mall,

MISS TRADESECRETS QUOTE THAT OUTRIGHT SHOWS HER BIBLE STUPIDITY CONTINUES AT HER EMBARRASSING EXPENSE: “The Trinity - as in the Word Trinity - is not mentioned in the Bible. So what?”

Okay, so what if the word "Trinity" is not mentioned within the Bible, where in fact the "concept of the Trinity Doctrine" is mentioned within the Bible as implied in Matthew’s Jesus inspired passage herewith: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19)

Barring the word “Trinity,” the Trinity Doctrine is mentioned specifically within the scriptures and Miss Tradesecret has proverbial egg upon her face AGAIN, what’s new? NOTHING!


As if the Trinity Doctrine isn’t embarrassing enough at times in explaining it LOGICALLY in the 21st Century, then our #1 Bible STUPID Fool Miss Tradesecret goes forth and "tries" to explain the Triune, but fails to tell us who thought up the Triune Doctrine in the first place?!   Whereas, it was MORTAL MAN, at the Council of Nicaea in 325CE, who thought up the concept of the Trinity Doctrine and NOT JESUS as God which should have done this notion in the first place in giving it more validity!  Therefore, the Trinity Doctrine is specious and questionable since MEN at the Council of Nicaea thought it up and proposed it!!!
.

Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen
@Mall


.
Stephen, Mall,

MISS TRADESECRET PROPOSED ANOTHER IGNORANT AND LYING QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! “The Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Churches.”


WRONG AS USUAL!  LOL!  Roman Catholicism traces its history to Jesus during the period of Roman occupation in the early 30’s CE!  This was a period of years after Jesus' life and death in 34 CE when His followers spread out across the world to form a “universal church" with the bishop of Rome holding primacy (Catholicism).

Therefore, the Trinity Doctrine of Christianity ONLY came about at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, approximately 300 years subsequent to Catholic Churches came into being where Miss Tradesecret LIED in saying in her quote above that the Triune Doctrine was around before the Roman Catholic Churches! NOT!  LOL!


++++++++++++   Seriously, when is the membership going to learn that the #1 Bible STUPID Fool of this Religion Forum being Miss Tradesecret, is not only Bible Stupid as continually shown, but historically STUPID to Christianity as well as shown in her quote above, and where what she says in her hearsay jabberwocky posts are to be taken with a 100 pounds of salt where you completely cannot believe what you are told by Miss Tradesecret because  it is unlikely to be true!!!  +++++++++++


THE NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE “MISS TRADESECRET” THAT NOT ONLY IS BIBLE STUPID, BUT HISTORICALLY STUPID RELATING TO CHRISTIANITY, WILL BE …?

.

DavidAZZ
DavidAZZ's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 303
0
2
5
DavidAZZ's avatar
DavidAZZ
0
2
5
-->
@Tradesecret
Incorrect.  Prove it. There is no religion in the world, history or otherwise that has anything like the doctrine of the Trinity. People make this assertion quite regularly but as soon as they start producing their so-called earlier Trinities, the difference very quickly becomes apparent. 
You are not completely wrong in this statement.  At the time of it's official conception, the Trinitarian doctrine in Nicaea, the Catholic church still had many members believing in God and Jesus as Christ.  So for them to completely turn God into a Triune God overnight and to make it so apparent, would be disastrous.  So they had to twist certain doctrines to still sound Biblical and appease the pagan masses too.

For instance, look at the Vedic god system.  There are thousands of gods in their system.  But the main three are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva a triune God.

How about the Greek mythology?  Dionysus was a God of wine (Jesus turned water into wine), he was born of an earthly mother and a divine father (Zeus).  He was also followed by bands of people and later lamented at his death.

How about the Egyptian concept of Gods?  Did you know their idea of a spirit of a man (ba) is depicted as a bird?  Don't we see many depictions of God the Holy Ghost as a bird due to the vision of John the Baptist?

Point is, there are a lot of correlations you can make with the biblical Jesus with other Pagan deities of the time and area and to tell a pagan that the biblical God is just like their own would not be a stretch when you can drum up an idea like the trinity.

The Trinity - as in the Word Trinity - is not mentioned in the Bible. So what? That would be an argument from silence.
Point taken.

Yet the concept of the Trinity is inherent from the Creation through to the last page of the NT.    The early Christians did argue over the concept. They needed to grapple with the truth that there is ONE GOD as the Deuteronomy passage articulates and then they needed to grapple with the person Jesus.  It also became clear during these discussions that the Holy Spirit was not the Father nor was he the Son.  Some people suggest he was just a power. Not a personality. Although Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit was a person and had a personality. You can't grieve a power. You can't lie to a power. Yes, both of these terms could just be anthropomorphisms.  And yet the Church determined otherwise. 
For one, which "church" decided this?  Have you read the early church fathers?  Keep in mind also that the victor of war gets to write the history.  The catholic has always tried to say that their church was the first and Peter the first pope.  They tried (in vain) to wipe out the history of a true church throughout history.  There a snippets here and there where "Oneness" people thrived before the Catholics tried to do away with them.  In fact, the church at Rome was Oneness until about 200 A.D.  You will find a little paper trail from one popular catholic father to another before Constantine that is quite a tangled web.  Pretty interesting actually.

I do believe the reference of the Holy Ghost is God's use of power.  See it with every scripture that it is used, such as the overshadowing of Mary.  She was found to be child of the Holy Ghost.  This would mean that God the Father would NOT be the father in the simplest sense.  But if we see the spirit of God working in situations, then it's easy to understand John chapter 14 and how Mary would be found child by the power of God.

Also, you will never find in the old testament a reference of God being with anyone else or there being a multiplicity of Gods that are worth serving.

The Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Churches. It was not their invention.
True again.  The concept of a Trinity was around before the church ever began, but later integrated into the dogma, per my post above with Mall and you.

Also, for reference, when I mention the Catholic church, I am not referring to the official Catholic church as I understand it was not truly formed for hundreds of years after Christ, but the Catholic church did come this ground work, so I use it as a way to delineate the true church and the false church.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@DavidAZZ
According to the scripture it isn't money that is the root but the love of it that is the root .

So if I understand what you're saying, the Catholic Church made up a false doctrine or something false to worship to get pagans to join in under the guise

Christianity in order to appear compliant with the emperor's law of only permitting Christianity for the sake of money I guess the pagans would pay up.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,805
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

1 John 5 and 7

Where it says these three are one, the Father, the word, the holy Spirit....

My question is ..these three what?