Many former top aides despise Trump and say he is unfit

Author: IwantRooseveltagain

Posts

Total: 97
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,056
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
The fact that someone is or was a lobbyist has absolutely no bearing on whether their stated opinion on Trump should be accepted as their actual opinion.
It is when there is a pattern of belonging to the same lobby group. And I don't really care about what they think about Trump. Trump isn't a good person. Just don't ask me to believe any Ultra Lobbyist cares about the country. They care about what an evil Trump will do for the lobby they are paid well to represent. Not the country, so you can drop that ridiculous overused talking point. Almost nobody actually believes lobbyists care about the country anymore, with or without Trump.

Any of us would under the right circumstances.
No. Some people actually DO care about "The Country"
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
Just don't ask me to believe any Ultra Lobbyist cares about the country.
No one is asking you to accept that proposition. You have created a false dichotomy (lobbyist, or a person who cares about America) and are now using this false dichotomy as an excuse to shut off any critical thinking skills you have.

A lobbyist is a person who professionally advocates for a position on behalf of their employer. There is nothing about this which tells us that the person doesn't care about the country, doesn't believe in the issue they are advocating, and certainly nothing about this that says their opinion on the former president - based upon actual first hand experience - is not valid.

If you want to argue that their opinion should be disregarded you would need to go through them one by one and explain how their current position conflicts with their ability to give an honest assessment. That's how logic works.

The problem for you is that in order to show that their lobbying position is a valid reason to disregard their opinion you have to show the conflict, which means that the opposite position would go against their personal interests. In other words, if it turned out that Trump were good for their lobbying form then their negative opinion would be even stronger evidence for us to take into account. But what you're trying to do instead is dismiss their position altogether regardless of what they have to say. That defies reason, which is why you are (as so far argued) objectively wrong on your approach here.

Since you have a tendency to skim through and strawman what I said, please let me know if you need me to slow down and expand on any of that before responding with your usual throw away lines.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,056
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
No one is asking you to accept that proposition.
Good. Then I reject your premise that lobbyists care about the country any more than any other entity that sells out the government for special interests. I am glad that you are not asking me to change my mind about that. Whether or not those snakes support or condemn another snake is irrelevant. If you want absolution, go see a priest, not the town drunkard. I'm not interested in Friday night DC bum fights. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,056
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
A lobbyist is a person who professionally advocates for a position on behalf of their employer. There is nothing about this which tells us that the person doesn't care about the country, doesn't believe in the issue they are advocating, and certainly nothing about this that says their opinion on the former president - based upon actual first hand experience - is not valid.

If you want to argue that their opinion should be disregarded....

I will one up you. If you want to argue that their opinion should be regarded, then make a new thread listing all your arguments about all the beneficial things lobbyists have done for democracy and the public. Then we can address each point line by line. I'd rather talk in a neutral thread than one where we both agree that Trump is scum since it's irrelevant to that point.

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
If you want to argue that their opinion should be regarded, then make a new thread listing all your arguments about all the beneficial things lobbyists have done for democracy and the public.
I've already explained this to you and it's very simple. Let me repeat this again, slowly:

The default position is to tentatively accept what someone states as their personal beliefs until given a valid reason to reject it.

Read that sentence as many times as needed before continuing.

What you have provided is not a valid reason to reject anything they have said. Let's go through the reasons why:
  • You claim this was a list of "Ultra lobbyists" yet only provided two examples from the 8 people listed
  • Neither of your two examples qualify as a conflict of interest
  • You continue to base your opinion on a second grade level world view where everyone is either a good guy or a bad guy. That's not how real life works
  • You continue to act as if this message is the product of the lobbying industry, seemingly giving no thought to the idea that these people are individuals speaking on their own individual experience
  • You continue to falsely assert that the sharing of an honest opinion about Trump can only occur if the individual cares about the country more than their own personal interests. That's ridiculous
So being that the default position is to accept their stated opinions about Trump and you have given no reason to reject it, we have every reason to take them at their word. But especially when considering
  • the volume of people within Trump's inner circle have shared the same opinions
  • as well as the fact that everything they are saying lines up perfectly with everything we already know about Trump...
It becomes absurd to believe anything else. You are desperately trying to make this conversation about evil lobbyists in DC, that's not what we're talking about. At all.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,056
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
I will one up you. If you want to argue that their opinion should be regarded, then make a new thread listing all your arguments about all the beneficial things lobbyists have done for democracy and the public. Then we can address each point line by line. I'd rather talk in a neutral thread than one where we both agree that Trump is scum since it's irrelevant to that point.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
If you want to argue that their opinion should be regarded, then make a new thread listing all your arguments about all the beneficial things lobbyists have done for democracy and the public.
These two things have nothing to do with each other.

Establishing that any individual's opinion should be regarded or disregarded requires taking a look at that individual. And as I have already explained and you ignored multiple times now: The default position is to tentatively accept what someone states as their personal beliefs until given a valid reason to reject it.

Feel free to read and respond to the many points I made above on how it applies to the subject of this thread.

Whether lobbyists as a collective group have done anything beneficial to the public is completely irrelevant to this process.