100 hours of Islam, and my initial reaction to reading the first part of the Quran

Author: ponikshiy
Islam
Quran
muslims
Koran
Allah

Posts

Total: 69
Topic's author
#1
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
I am looking to explore what Islam is about for 100 hours and then for 100 days. This blog piece is to explore the first 100 hours. The goal for this 100 days is ambituous/

1. listen to the entire Quran 25 times in English and 25 times  in Quranic Arabic.
2. speedrun the entire dulingo Arabic course, it is not quranic arabic but there is enough overlap and it seems like a good foundation.

I already see some issues in Islam from my pre study. for one they change english translations of the Quran in response to controversy, such as when the prophet was sucking on the tongue of a young boy. This is essential for me to learn Arabic.

They also seem to think their book is uncorrupted, but arabic itself was not standardized during the time of the Quran's writing and the words weren't written down until years after the prophets death. There was also disagreement as to the what the words mean almost immediately with the Sunni Shia split.

Some things I am looking out for while going through the Quran, and I know there is more to Islam than the Quran but I want to read it first before getting more involved with the community to learn how to understand the words better. The point of the first 100 hours is to take things from the POV of Muslims and maybe the first 100 days before I dive into what the skeptics say. I will need to learn Islam at a basic level before I get into apologetics as well.

Here is what I am looking out for

1. Is their like a type of cycle of Jihad advocated for. I noticed societies with 1% Muslims will have Muslims claiming Islam is a religion of peace. Once it hits 20% Muslim the society starts defensive Jihad, where they will start attacking those critical of Islam. At 80% of population, Muslims will subjugate christians and Jews demanding a type of tribute to exist and unlike western societies who treat Muslims kindly, they will treat those who are not Muslim as lesser people.

2. Does your typical Muslim or apologist think "Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed", Like a pedophile

3. Are they commanded to go after Jews and does the Quran actually claim Jews shape shift into animals and refuse to drink camel milk and other weird shit.

Day 1: I listened to an audiobook of the Quran for 2 hours. It begins with a type of rehash of the biblical old testament and criticizes Jews for their stubborness. The Old Testament in the bible seems to do the same thing and criticize Jews for their stubbornness but the God as portrayed in the bible is criticizing Jews from a place of love, where as Allah seems to refer to them as wrong doers and accuse them of lying about his words he gave them to write down. Just before the 2 hour mark it seems that Allah is challenging the Jews to kill themselves if they are confident they have done good and are ready to meet God. So already it seems to not respect the sanctity of life. I am not sure how this will continue but it seems the Muslim claims to love death because they are excited to meet God as they are sure they have pleased him, and accuse lovers of life of trying to live so long because they are afraid to meet God, because they know in their heart they are wrong doers.

This is my reading of the Quran. I intend to get a physical copy in addition to the audiobook and can listen about 3 hours a day. The audiobook is about 20 hours so I will give you guys daily summaries. Welcome to my blog.
#2
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,171
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ponikshiy
Interesting.


Still masquerading as a Russian female though.


And yes. An OT rehash with a 6th century spin relative to tribal differences.


I'm looking forward to the blog.
#3
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Nice.
#4
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ponikshiy
The Old Testament .

The Old Testament is a horrible book of war and conquest that is only interested in the welfare and prosperity of one bloodline. With that said, Israel has dragged itself into the 21st century, as has the West which is something Islam cannot do and refuses to do. Christianity also, regardless of the atrocious actions of Christians in the past, it too has dragged itself into the 21st century and  preaches "love thy neighbour, love your enemy, give your shoes way, feed the hungry and turn the other cheek"... (on the surface at least) and Jesus is their god.

The reason for this is that Muslims believe that the Quran is "the perfect unalterable word of Allah". 

  Every single achievement (or victory over the unbeliever ) that Muslims achieve they believe that it comes directly from  Allah.

To name a few;
The discovery (by an American) and extraction of oil in the 30's. This caused Arab/Muslim countries to move from tents and mud hut into palaces almost over night. 
The overthrow in the 70's of the historical monarchy, the Shah of Iran to be replaced by the Islamic State of Iran.
The victory over a super power; Russia in the late 80's.
The attack on the twin towers New York 2001 by just 19 Muslims <<<< that will be "the tiny few" the apologist  like to keep reminding us of.
And more recent "victory over the invaders, the great Satan" ; the withdraw of West from the Taliban in Afghanistan.

All the above believed to have been through the blessing and direct intervention of Allah.  The Taliban’s victory is [the west was told]  “a fruit of long and arduous struggle and God’s big gift to Muslims worldwide”.
And all the above has inspired Muslims world wide  to "jihad" - Holy War.



#5
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Stephen
And more recent "victory over the invaders, the great Satan" ; the withdraw of West from the Taliban in Afghanistan.
The west isnt satan yet, but it soon will be.

#6
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea

I have been saying it for decades- coming to a town near you.

'Entire Planet Will Be Under Our Law': Hamas Commander's Old Video Goes Viral Amid Israel War



"Israel is only the first target" , warns Hamas commanderMahmoud al-Zahar: "The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".

 “We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,

“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries,"    he said.Meanwhile, the West continues to flood our countries with terrorists and their supporters!

Western Government ignored the warning shot across our bows when Rushdie wrote a novel in 1988.
#7
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Stephen
Somebody should tell him that Earth belongs to Satan, not Allah.

In fact, Satan has already invested a lot in programs like sexualization, overeating and overdrinking. It will affect muslim countries too. They cannot resist.
#8
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,775
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Isn't all religious people killing each other just part of Evolution?
#9
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@ponikshiy
I could be interesting to hear your thoughts,
Come hours hence.
Topic's author
#10
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Day 2

6 hours into the 100 hours 

1. 33% of the Quran read..
2. About 40 minutes of Arabic study

What I learned

1. When but not how to beat a woman.
2. Arabic works in a unique and unintuitive way as far as I can tell. It recently evolved less than 1000 years ago from non uniform squiggly lines and dots to something a bit more sensible but many of the symbols look very similar for no appararent reason for non similar sounds. Also the way the sounds blend together is odd. For example using the modern alphabet for English d would make a d sound I make an I sound and when put together did sounds like did. Now in Arabic did may sound like did, but also idi may sound like did.  It's just stupid and it's no wonder the prophet was illiterate.

Your comparison of Islam and judaism/Christianity is wrong.

I read the entire Bible many times over but have only read 33% of th Quran so far and can tell a lot of differences. 

The Jews were commanded to attack their enemies a lot in the early parts of the old testament. Basically normal tribal battle for control of different territories. Your typical nation state thing, at least for a nation state that wants to expand by normal means. Muhammed preaches for a never ending war against all non Muslims.

Also jews and christians are taught to love their neighbor. You can pick apart things in the Bible that make modern sensibilities uncomfortable but I think the general message is going to be one of peace and love. 

The Quran so far is teaching almost exclusively hatred. Between the rewritten bi lical narratives is 2 things. Muhhamad doing poor theology, for example failing to understand the trinity concept and for preaching that the reason for Jewish dietary restrictions is not a guidance by God to eat clean food but a punishment to to Jews for being so stubborn towards God and for writing books interspersed with lies. It should be noted that Mohhamed us using the sane Jewish and Christian framework but more explicitly cherry picking what he wants and changing the story to the correct story before Jews intentionally lied about th Abrahamic God 
.
Now we can debate as to what the actual message of th old testament or new testament is, but what you may find wrong with the book, I would call some shit that is debatable or at the least some stuff that is side quests or offhand things not relevant to the main story. For example the Sodom and Gomorrah story, people may criticize the dude offering to where out his daughters to save some guests he just me, but the story is just about how being righteous can save you from God's wrath or more generically destruction from unexpected events. 

In the Bible a normal person would read the story and if thy are God believing still feel very terrible for all those dead sinners. In Islam the mood is completely different you would be excited and happy for their death. 

Anyway in summary for day 2 of this blog

Islam is quite openly about hate. Mostly for Jews and Muslims but they would consider Jews and Muslims above atheists and pagans. In a Muslim society Jews and Christians will pay a tribute to the Muslims, but atheists and pagans would be killed. I assume all of their followers, unlike Christians and jews have read their holy book and there is no way to miss all of this hate. So when a Muslim is calling it a religion of peace, they are outright lying unless the last 66% of the book is going to surprise me. 

As can be expected from a book that has already advocated hate for outsiders, beating women and stoning the book also explicitly talks about how to hire Muslims over non muslims how to not lie in court but specifically against Muslims not non Muslims and there is some bitching and moaning about paying interest on loans. 
#11
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@ponikshiy
As can be expected from a book that has already advocated hate for outsiders, beating women and stoning
Wait till you get to the cutting off hands part, and the part about killing children who are non-believers (its actually very common in muslim countries for ex-muslims to be killed even today).

unless the last 66% of the book is going to surprise me.
It sure will 😁
Topic's author
#12
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
So far it's not going great. I can't quite get in their heads and feel like I can momentarily feel like a Muslim to understand them better. I am going to start doing their prayers and what not when I figure out how to so I can start putting myself in their shoes more and more. The biggest hurdle is the Quran. It looks like mohhamed basically just retconned his ideology into Christianity and judaism and it looks extremely obvious. A similar hint to what new ages people who use different ideologies similarly, but the new agers seem to do a better job of ret conning their ideology because of the fact they seem to actually believe their own nonsense and do it for more altruistic purposes, disregarding Esther hicks and those types. 

I have read stuff from a lot of religions and they see lm significantly more sincere than this. Even stuff by for example David Icke appears more genuine and sincere.  I Walk away from David Icke work, believing that he actually thinks the royal family is reptilian. I walk away from Muhhamed's work believing that he is just trying to start his own movement. 
Topic's author
#13
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Wait till you get to the cutting off hands part, and the part about killing children who are non-believers (its actually very common in muslim countries for ex-muslims to be killed even today).
I think it has already mentioned cutting off hands but I kind of dismissed it, because it seemed like a very specific circumstance that I wouldn't necessarily disagree with and since it's audiobook and I wasn't quite sure I heard it correctly, then i didn't want to make a big deal out of it. Plus I will end up rereading the book 49 more times with a mix of a physical copy and audio so I will be more certain after future readings 
Topic's author
#14
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
I will say s far as ex Muslims are concerned, there seems to be a very special hate for them. Allah is supposed to torture then even more than Christians and Jews in the next life
#15
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@ponikshiy
I'd argue that religions see many variations, interpretations, and evolutions of their followers,
Even governments, the American 2nd Amendment as an example.

Still, I've never researched strong into the Quran or Islam,
And don't have strong opinions on the subject.
#16
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ponikshiy
I read the entire Bible many times over but have only read 33% of th Quran so far and can tell a lot of differences.

 There are. Like I have written above --  regardless of the atrocious actions of Christians in the past [in the name of Jesus], it too has dragged itself into the 21st century and  preaches "love thy neighbour, love your enemy, give your shoes way, feed the hungry and turn the other cheek"... (on the surface at least) and Jesus is their god.#4


The Jews were commanded to attack their enemies a lot in the early parts of the old testament..... Your typical nation state thing,

After the creation story  the bloodshed doesn't stop.  This is a BIBLICAL fact.


Muhammed preaches for a never ending war against all non Muslims.

Indeed perpetual jihad: holy war.

 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.



Also jews and christians are taught to love their neighbor. You can pick apart things in the Bible that make modern sensibilities uncomfortable but I think the general message is going to be one of peace and love. 

Well  again, I have already mentioned that regardless of past atrocities the fact  is  that the Israel/Israelites and Christians have dragged their respective religious ideologies into the 21st century. AS mentioned here above>> #4, 

Muslims believe that the Quran  "is the perfect unalterable word of Allah and his prophet". With the Muslim attitude being why alter something that is said and believed to be "perfect"?  If it is "perfect" it needs no altering. 

Islam is quite openly about hate.

Well you see in the early part of the Quran there are some very nice fluffy verses reminiscent of the New Testamant passages. Then suddenly - as you will find- its tone completely changes. I know why this happened , but as to the fluffy verses Muhammad says he wrote them after Satan visited him in a dream and made him write them. When you have finished your thread and reached your own conclusions, you may want to read up on  Law Of Abrogation In Islam.

Interesting thread, by the way. 


Topic's author
#17
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
I'd argue that religions see many variations, interpretations, and evolutions of their followers,
I wouldn't disagree but the statement is dismissive of what could be valid problems with a foundational text that has some obvious issues that will predictably result in good people performing some very horrific acts. 

I want to present the dismissiveness with an example.

Normal person - mein kampf paints a pretty disgusting picture of Jews and given the popularity of the book in Germany right now it could end up resulting in some atrocities if the wrong person gets in power

Nazi- well you know the bible has its issues as well and it spots also does not paint Jews in a great light. Plus doesn't it actually have incidences of Genocide seemingly advocated for by God?

In liberal society will often and to our credit give people the benefit of the doubt. We know judaism and Christianity and Buddhism and scientology even are generally peaceful, so we assume that since we have personally seen most religions as peaceful than every single religion without exception is peaceful. I mean all of those religions have also had members do some crazy things, so surely the religion can never be to blame. 

After all we also have likely befriended a Muslim at one point and that individual seems cool. 

However this belief system that makes all things equal and the presupposition of equality that permeates everything, is assumed to be true, and so the western mind is not conditioned to see when the rare belief system comes along that is alien to these internal biases and our own sense of deep empathy. 

So I guess TLDR is that I completely agree with your statement but that I also think it's dismissive of the bigger picture. Given my 100 hour commitment that will likely turn to 100 days, I am sure my opinion will rapidly evolve, but so far it seems like at the very least the Quran once read makes you understand that there are some issues.

I am not a feminist so I will ignore how gender roles are discussed other than the requirement to beat your wife. But they dehumanizing non Muslims as evil though my translation uses the term wrong doer. This is different that Christianity and Judaism talking about sinners because when those religions talk about it, they are talking about it as a way to eradicate their own shortcomings not to project others as bad people. 

Besides dehumanization of non Muslims it places no value on life. In the first hour of the book jews are encouraged to commit suicide if they are so sure that God approves of them, they should be happy to meet him, while also devaluing their own lives by welcoming death and seeing the you g dying in battle as a good thing since they get to meet Allah sooner
Topic's author
#18
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
I k ow the law of abrogation, but I was going to wait to get into apologetics. As you likely know the apologists often use some circular reasoning to cope with the issues of the faith outsiders take. I wanted to understand this from an uneducated Muslims perspective first. 

I pretty much agree with everything you stated. My caveat was that Islam was a worse religion andi didn't want to be dismissive of that fact by distracting with the issues of other abrahamic religions. 

As for why Islam has not reformed like other abrahamic religions, besides it being newer. I heard a scholar recently say that Islam did go through a brief period of reform but that many Muslims asking why a mere 2 million jews dominate 33% of the planet when their books say the opposite should be true by now, is that many apologists started to believe it had to do with Muslims getting away from the book, so the reform movement I crushed. 

This also explains why Islamic extremists kill Muslims as often if not more so than Jews. The people half assing Islam are keeping the prophets plan of world domination from happening so they view killing lesser Muslims as cleansing the religion
#19
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@ponikshiy



This also explains why Islamic extremists kill Muslims as often if not more so than Jews.

I have often said, that Muslims are the biggest victims of Islam.

I k ow the law of abrogation, but I was going to wait to get into apologetics.

Interesting. I will leave you to it.

#20
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Lemming
[Islam] And don't have strong opinions on the subject.

You will.  When the full force of Islam comes to a town near you.
#21
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Stephen
People need to meet some radical muslims to find out why islam is bad.

Radical Christians are bad too. As bad as muslims, I would say.

I am not really sure which ones are worse.

Well, what one learns in life is that every group of people sucks in some way.
Topic's author
#22
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
What I can't stop laughing at is the following pattern 

Verse 1  kill every polytheism wherever you find them

Verse 2 if they turn to Islam before you murder them than accept them

Verse 3- because Allah is kind and merciful

Anyone reading this pattern of verses can easily tell the 3rd verse is a cope for the first one or just something shoe horned in to justify the murder by making it seem optional for the polytheist.
Topic's author
#23
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Radical Christians are bad too. As bad as muslims, I would say.
The radical Christian disowns faggot relatives, while the Muslim stones them to death when they make up the majority of a country
Topic's author
#24
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
Muhhameds theology is so bad, I just got to the part where he I saying Jews think Ezra is the son of God.. 

All these other fake Jewish messiah atheist did their research before claiming to be one
#25
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@ponikshiy
True today. Christian countries used to sentence gays to death or life in prison, but it changed in the past 100 years.
Topic's author
#26
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
I don't  believe, but even if true than it still means Muslims are more barbaric in general than Christians though maybe 1000 years ago Christianity used to be more barbaric. As interesting as history is, this is resorting to the worst kind of whataboutism
Topic's author
#27
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
Here is a thing I am noticing I wanted to record before I forget. Muhhamad is setting up some weird strawman supposedly given to him by an angel, it kind of shows where Muslims get their arrogance from. One strawman to prove jews are Liara us muhhamed saying that once they die and God says they got it wrong and Muslims were right, they will lie and say they are Muslims. 

He then goes on after making up this fictional scenario to say "see look at what they did in my scenario, they are evil liars"

It's some oddball shit a child would do
#28
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,009
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@ponikshiy
I don't  believe
You dont have to believe. You can google it. Its your blog. You can do whatever you want.
#29
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@ponikshiy
Oh I don't 'mean to be dismissive, not my intention at all.

But I 'do think it is fair to argue against too strong a negative view taken against Islam and the Quran,
Not that you have or have not done so.

I'd argue though, that Mein Kampf is a more 'recent document than the Quran,
And Hitler a more recent person,
It's a sight closer to the eye, easier to make out details of historical truths of actions.
. . .
Never read the book myself, Mein Kampf.

Eh, a 'bit, though I am unsure of my 'eh'.
It seems to me 'many a view can be unsafe with the wrong person in power,
Of course one can argue some views are easier adopted to bad ends than others.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Some people argue that child sacrifice was common among the Caananites,
Though many people disagree that the theory is 'true.
. .
"It can be argued that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (Genesis 22) but this is a false and smug analogy. The correct syllogism is this: Whereas evil spirits posing as deities invite humans to slaughter their children for fun and profit, God called Isaac to sacrifice Isaac knowing he would stop Abraham before he did so. God then provided Abraham with a more appropriate sacrifice (Genesis 22:13). Clearly, Yahweh never wanted blood. Instead of human blood, God insists on something very different:
It is kindness that I want, not animal sacrifices. (Matthew 9:13)

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6)
I do not reprimand you because of your sacrifices and the burnt offerings you always bring me. And yet I do not need bulls from your farms or goats from your flocks; all the animals in the forest are mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are mine and all living things in the fields. If I were hungry, I would not ask you for food, for the world and everything in it is mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Let the giving of thanks be your sacrifice to God, and give the Almighty all that you promised. (Psalm 50:8-15)"

I forget if child sacrifice was common to that time and area,
One could see Abraham as a hard push 'against such traditions,
That may have seeped a bit into his people, in the area they lived, of themselves. (Shrug I don't know religion or history very well, I'm guessing.)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Some people might not think that the destruction of a nation that practices evil practices to be bad.
Course one can argue innocents such as children,
Course to that one can argue the Bible to be the work of man,
Course to that many religious people might disagree,
Eh, I'm an Atheist.
And of course one can argue what 'is an evil society,
But eh eh eh I say, I wasn't around thousands of years ago.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

I don't know much about Islam or the Quran,
So I eat information on it I hear, fairly well salted,
Nothing against you,
Just my way to want to be contrary, to better understand,
Again, I think it could be interesting to hear your thoughts,
Some hours hence.
. .
Especially as I have no near plans to research the subject in depth,
I can learn a 'little by reading here,
By thinking, 'little bit of Googling the subject myself, 'little bit.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

"Somewhat desperately now, Gerecke tried one last time to engage Goering on the "eternal values and how a man can be prepared to die, to meet his God."
"Surrender your heart and soul completely to your savior, Herr Reichsmarshel," he said.
Goering was in no mood to listen. For the last time, Goering told Gerecke that he was a member of the Christian church, but that he couldn't accept the teachings of the Christian faith. He ridiculed the idea that the Bible was written by scribes divinely inspired by God. He refused the fundamental Christian doctrine of atonement- that Jesus through his suffering and resurrection, died for the forgiveness of man's sin and to reconcile God with his creation.
Gerecke pleaded with Goering "This is what Jesus said," Gerecke told him "This isn't what Gerecke is saying, but this is God speaking to you. Won't you accept this? Just say, 'Jesus save me.'
"No!" Goering barked. "I can't do that. This Jesus you always speak to me of- to me he is just another smart Jew."
"Herr Reichsmarshel," Gerecke said "This Jesus is my savior who suffered, bled and died that I may go to Heaven some day. He paid for my sins."
"Ach!" Goering yelled. "You don't believe that yourself. When one is dead, that's the end of everything." pg 260

"Gerecke knew Goering was, like Rosenberg, Gottglaubig. As a rationalist Goering wanted to go through the motions, believing none of the mysterious of the Church while retaining some insurance in case Christianity really represented the truth,"
pg 265
Gerecke ended up refusing Goering Communion, as Goering continued to refuse to accept Christ.
Mission at Nuremberg, An American Army Chaplain and the Trial of the Nazis by Tim Townsend

Course, who knows what is in people's minds?
Another individual Julius Streicher, speaks contradictory.

"Other prisoners were less sentimental that night. Gerecke had left Julius Streicher some devotional literature in hops that the Christmas spirit would extend even to those who rejected his faith.
But Streicher told Gustave Gilbert that the Christ story didn't inspire or move him.
The newspaper editor and propogandaist said he was his own philospher.
"I've often thought about this buisness about God creating the universe," Streicher told Gilbert. "I always ask myself, if God made everything, who made God? You see you can go crazy thinking on about that. And all that stuff about Christ- the Hew who was the Son of God. I don't know. It sounds like propoganda."
pg 186
Course he also says
"I am now by God my father!" pg 275 and some other things denying any guilt and "heil Hitler!" right before he is hanged.
Not that I'm saying he was or was not guilty enough to be hanged, but he 'did have an influence on many people's hate towards Jews.
Mission at Nuremberg, An American Army Chaplain and the Trial of the Nazis by Tim Townsend

Still, , , I don't think I'm for 'banning Mein Kampf, or Nazis.
I don't think I'd 'join such, or encourage such myself, for various reasons. . .
#30
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,647
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Lemming
I'd argue though, that Mein Kampf is a more 'recent document than the Quran,[,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,]But I 'do think it is fair to argue against too strong a negative view taken against Islam and the Quran,

And you are being extremely naïve.  To Muslims world wide, the Quran is a live living book as if it was written up just yesterday. They are the  unchanged un-alterable words of Allah's prophet Muhammad. They mean exactly the same today as they did in the 7th century.