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tigerlord

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#5962

Islam Vs anything3

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Waiting for the next argument from the contender.

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1. Daniel B. Wallace (Evangelical Scholar)

Source: The Number of Textual Variants: An Evangelical Miscalculation (2013)

Relevant Quote: "In the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics... there is a comment about the number of textual variants among New Testament manuscripts: 'Some have estimated there are about 200,000 of them.'"

Link: Daniel B. Wallace's Article

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2. Greg Koukl (Christian Apologist)

Source: Textual Variants: It’s the Nature, Not the Number, That Matters (2014)

Relevant Quote: "Most scholars put the number of variants for the New Testament at around 400,000."

Link: Stand to Reason Article

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3. Christian Publishing House

Source: Major Textual Variants in the New Testament: Another Look (2023)

Relevant Quote: "It’s estimated there are between 200,000 and 400,000 textual variants in the New Testament manuscripts."

Link: Christian Publishing House Article

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4. Ryan Leasure (Christian Author)

Source: The Number of New Testament Textual Variants Doesn’t Matter (Approximately 2019)

Relevant Quote: "In sum, 99.75% of all textual variants don’t affect our reading of the text."

Link: Ryan Leasure's Article

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5. Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (CSNTM)

Source: Manuscripts 101: What is a textual variant? (2023)

Relevant Quote: "There are thousands of differences among the manuscripts."

Link: CSNTM Article

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Note: Estimates of textual variants range from 200,000 to over 500,000, depending on counting methods and manuscript inclusions.

Source for evidence 2

This is a well-established fact, and even Christian scholars and institutions acknowledge it. Here are credible Christian sources confirming that no original manuscripts (autographs) of any biblical book exist today:

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1. Daniel B. Wallace (Evangelical Scholar & Textual Critic)

Source: The Basics of New Testament Textual Criticism (2017)

Relevant Quote:

"We do not have any of the original documents of the New Testament. What we possess are copies of copies, sometimes centuries removed from the originals."

Link: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/learn/institute/nt605-textual-criticism/nt605-01-introduction-to-new-testament-textual-criticism

2. The Oxford Handbook of Biblical Studies

Quote: "No autographs (originals) of the biblical texts exist. All we have are later copies, often with significant variations."

Source: John Rogerson & Judith Lieu (Oxford University Press, 2006)

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3. The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (CSNTM)

Quote: “All of the earliest copies of the New Testament are fragmentary or incomplete, and we do not have the originals.”

Source: CSNTM Official Website

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4. Bart D. Ehrman (New Testament Scholar, Former Christian)

Quote: "The originals of the books of the New Testament have all been lost. What we have are later copies—thousands of them, in fact, copied by hand."

Source: Misquoting Jesus (HarperCollins, 2005)

More sources for contradictions:

1. The Number of Animals on Noah's Ark

Genesis 6:19-20 instructs Noah to bring two of every living creature into the ark.

Genesis 7:2-3, however, commands taking seven pairs of clean animals and birds.

This discrepancy suggests differing source traditions within the text.

2. The Death of Judas Iscariot

Matthew 27:5 records Judas hanging himself.

Acts 1:18 describes him falling headlong, resulting in his body bursting open.

These conflicting accounts raise questions about the consistency of the narrative.

3. The Timing of Jesus' Crucifixion

Mark 15:25 states Jesus was crucified at the third hour (9 a.m.).

John 19:14-16 indicates it was about the sixth hour (noon) when Jesus was handed over for crucifixion.

This timing discrepancy highlights variations in the Gospel accounts.

4. The Genealogy of Jesus

Matthew 1:16 lists Jacob as Joseph's father.

Luke 3:23 names Heli as Joseph's father.

These differing genealogies suggest distinct sources or theological emphases.

5. Seeing God

Exodus 33:20 asserts that no one can see God and live.

Genesis 32:30 describes Jacob claiming to have seen God face to face.

This contradiction raises questions about the nature of divine encounters in the text.

These examples illustrate the complex and multifaceted nature of biblical texts, reflecting diverse traditions and editorial influences over time.

Argument 2:

Bible’s reliance on oral traditions and anonymous authorship undermines its claim to divine inspiration, while reinforcing its human origins:

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1. Decades of Oral Transmission

Timeline:

Jesus’ ministry: ~27–30 CE.

First Gospel (Mark): ~65–75 CE (35–45 years of oral transmission).

Gospels of Matthew/Luke: ~80–90 CE.

Gospel of John: ~90–110 CE.

Problems with Oral Tradition:

Memory Distortion: Human memory degrades over time. Details shift with retelling (e.g., exaggerations, omissions).

Agenda-Driven Editing: Stories adapted to address later theological disputes (e.g., Gentile inclusion, Roman persecution).

Example:

Mark 6:5: “He [Jesus] could do no mighty work there [Nazareth].”

Matthew 13:58: Changes this to “He did not do many mighty works there,” softening the implication of Jesus’ limitations.

Scholarly Source:

Bart Ehrman: “The stories about Jesus were altered in the process of retelling. … It’s what happens with oral traditions everywhere” (Jesus Before the Gospels, 2016).

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2. Anonymous Authorship

Facts:

No Original Titles: The Gospels were untitled initially. Names like “According to Matthew” were added later (2nd century CE).

Early Church Testimony:

Papias (130 CE): Claims Mark recorded Peter’s sermons—secondhand, not eyewitness.

Irenaeus (180 CE): First to assign authorship to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, based on tradition, not evidence.

Why It Matters:

If the authors were eyewitnesses (as claimed), they would have named themselves.

Anonymous works lack accountability, making them prone to myth-building.

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3. Theological Evolution in the Text

Example 1: Jesus’ Divinity

Mark (65–75 CE):

Jesus is a human Messiah; no virgin birth; dies crying, “My God, why have you forsaken me?” (15:34).

Matthew/Luke (80–90 CE):

Add virgin birth (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38).

John (90–110 CE):

Jesus is pre-existent divine Logos (1:1); says, “I and the Father are one” (10:30).

Example 2: Resurrection Accounts

Mark 16:1-8: Ends abruptly with an empty tomb; no post-resurrection appearances.

Matthew 28:9-10: Jesus appears to women.

Luke 24:13-43: Jesus walks with disciples, eats fish.

John 20:11-29: Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene, then to Thomas.

Impact: The resurrection story grows more elaborate over time, suggesting legendary development.

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4. Contradictions Expose Human Tampering

Example 1: Sermon on the Mount vs. Plain

Matthew 5-7: Jesus delivers the Sermon on a mountain (symbolizing Moses/Sinai).

Luke 6:17-49: Same sermon, but on a “level place” (plain).

Example 2: Genealogy of Jesus

Matthew 1:1-17: Traces Jesus’ lineage through Joseph to King David (28 generations).

Luke 3:23-38: Traces through a different line (43 generations).

Example 3: Jesus’ Last Words

Mark 15:34: “My God, why have you forsaken me?” (despair).

Luke 23:46: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (peace).

John 19:30: “It is finished” (triumph).

Impact: These contradictions reflect competing oral traditions later written into the text.

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5. Impact on the Trinity

Key Trinitarian Verses Are Suspect:

1 John 5:7-8 (Trinitarian formula): A proven 16th-century forgery.

Matthew 28:19 (“Father, Son, Holy Spirit”): Absent from early texts like the Didache (50–70 CE), which uses baptism “in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Council of Nicaea (325 CE):

The Trinity was formalized using non-biblical terms (homoousios) borrowed from Greek philosophy.

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6. Contrast with the Quran

Oral + Written Preservation:

The Quran was memorized verbatim and written during Muhammad’s lifetime (ﷺ).

Zero Variants: Oldest manuscripts (e.g., Sana’a Codex, c. 675 CE) match modern Quran.

Explicit Authorship:

Quranic verses begin with “Say [O Muhammad]” (e.g., 112:1), affirming its divine source.

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Preempting Counterarguments

1. “The Holy Spirit inspired the authors!”

Rebuttal: Why allow errors like 500,000 variants? Why borrow pagan terms like homoousios?

2. “Core doctrines remain intact!”

Rebuttal: The Trinity depends on forged verses (1 John 5:7-8) and late theology (John’s Gospel).

3. “The authors were apostles!”

Rebuttal: Scholarly consensus rejects apostolic authorship. Even Paul, the earliest writer, never met Jesus.

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Final Argument

“The Bible’s oral origins, anonymous authorship, and evolving theology prove it is a human product. The Trinity, built on these shaky foundations, is a later invention—not divine truth. Islam’s Quran, preserved perfectly, restores the pure monotheism taught by all prophets, including Jesus (ﷺ).”

Jesus 3 years missionary work turned into new testament:

1. Jesus Did Not Preach the "Bible"

Oral Teachings: Jesus preached in Aramaic, and his teachings were passed down orally for decades before being written. The "Bible" (New Testament) did not exist during his lifetime.

Short Ministry: Even if his ministry lasted 3 years, he taught in parables and sayings, not lengthy texts. The Gospels (written 40–70 years later) are summaries of these teachings, not verbatim records.

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......

Argument:

How Jesus became god for Christian:

Here’s a step-by-step breakdown of how Jesus (ﷺ)—a human prophet in his original teachings—was transformed into a divine figure in Christianity, despite his humanity and prophetic mission:

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1. Jesus’ Original Role: Prophet and Messiah

Historical Jesus:

Preached monotheism (Mark 12:29: “The Lord our God is one Lord”).

Identified as a prophet (Matthew 13:57, Luke 13:33) and Messiah (anointed king, not God).

Prayed to God (Matthew 26:39), fasted (Matthew 4:2), and faced human limitations (Mark 13:32: “The Son does not know the hour”).

Islamic View:

Quran 5:75: “The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger... He used to eat food.”

Quran 3:59: “Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam... He said, ‘Be,’ and it was.”

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2. Early Followers: Jesus as Exalted Human

Jewish-Christian Ebionites (1st–2nd century):

Viewed Jesus as the human Messiah, born naturally to Mary and Joseph.

Rejected his divinity and virgin birth.

Paul’s Letters (50–60 CE):

Elevated Jesus’ status but never called him “God” (e.g., Philippians 2:9–11: “God exalted him”).

Introduced terms like “Lord” (Greek: Kyrios)—a title also used for human rulers.

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**3. Hellenistic Influence: Merging Jewish and Greek Ideas

Logos Theology (John’s Gospel, 90–110 CE):

Portrayed Jesus as the Logos (Word), borrowing from Greek philosophy (Philo of Alexandria).

John 1:1: “The Word was God”—a theological leap absent in earlier Gospels.

Gentile Audiences:

Non-Jewish converts (Romans, Greeks) were accustomed to divine-human hybrids (e.g., Hercules, demigods).

Jesus’ resurrection was framed similarly to pagan “dying-and-rising” gods (e.g., Osiris, Dionysus).

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**4. Textual Corruption: Adding Divine Titles

John 20:28:

Thomas calls Jesus “My Lord and my God!”—a late addition to John’s Gospel, inconsistent with Jesus’ earlier rejections of worship (Matthew 4:10: “Worship the Lord your God”).

Titus 2:13:

“The glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”—likely altered to equate Jesus with God. Early manuscripts lack clarity.

1 John 5:7–8 (Comma Johanneum):

A forged verse added in the 16th century to support the Trinity: “Father, Word, and Holy Spirit are one.”

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**5. Political Enforcement: Councils and Creeds

Council of Nicaea (325 CE):

Emperor Constantine enforced the term homoousios (“same substance”) to declare Jesus divine.

Dissenting bishops (Arians) were exiled; writings burned.

Council of Constantinople (381 CE):

Formalized the Holy Spirit as the third “person” of the Trinity.

Pagan parallels: Triads like Osiris-Isis-Horus (Egypt) influenced the doctrine.

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**6. Theological Contradictions

Subordination vs. Equality:

Jesus prays to God (Luke 22:42) yet is called “equal” to Him (John 10:30).

Mark 10:18: “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Human Limitations:

Jesus grows in wisdom (Luke 2:52), sleeps (Mark 4:38), and dies—traits incompatible with divine omnipotence.

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7. Islamic Rejection of Deification

Quran 4:171:

“Do not say ‘Three’; desist! It is better for you. Allah is but One God. Exalted is He above having a son.”

Quran 5:116–117:

Allah asks Jesus on Judgment Day: “Did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah?’” Jesus replies: “I said not except what You commanded me: ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”

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Conclusion

Jesus (ﷺ) was a prophet sent to renew monotheism, but his message was corrupted through:

1. Hellenistic syncretism (mixing Jewish and pagan ideas).

2. Textual additions (forged verses like 1 John 5:7).

3. Political councils (Nicaea, Constantinople).

4. Cultural reinterpretation (Gentile audiences expecting divine heroes).

The Quran restores Jesus’ true status: a human prophet, not God. The Trinity is a man-made doctrine, crafted through centuries of theological evolution and political coercion—not divine revelation.

Now we are going to see trinity under philosophical and logical lense.

................

Here’s a breakdown of the Trinity’s philosophical and logical absurdities.

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1. Logical Contradictions

A. The Law of Non-Contradiction

Trinity Claim: Three distinct persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are one God.

Logical Violation:

If A (Father) ≠ B (Son) ≠ C (Spirit), they cannot simultaneously be one being (A = B = C).

This violates the foundational logical principle: A thing cannot be both itself and its opposite (A ≠ non-A).

B. Subordination vs. Co-Equality

Biblical Subordination:

Jesus says, “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).

Jesus prays to the Father (Luke 22:42).

Trinity’s Claim: All three persons are co-equal and co-eternal.

Contradiction: If Jesus is subordinate, he cannot be co-equal.

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2. Philosophical Paradoxes

A. The Problem of Divine Simplicity

Classical Theism: God is simple (non-composite, indivisible).

Trinity: God is composed of three “persons.”

Paradox: A simple being cannot have parts. The Trinity introduces complexity, making God a composite being—contradicting divine simplicity.

B. Identity and Distinction

Trinity: Each person is “fully God,” yet distinct.

Logical Absurdity:

If the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, but they are distinct, then three Gods exist (tritheism).

Analogy: Claiming three CEOs are “one CEO” while acting independently.

C. The "Mystery" Dodge

Christian Defense: The Trinity is a “mystery beyond human logic.”

Rebuttal:

If a doctrine defies basic logic (e.g., 3=1), it is irrational, not mysterious.

Thomas Paine: “To believe in three Gods is paganism; to call them one is nonsense.”

....

Contradictions in the Hypostatic Union

A. Fully God, Fully Human (100% + 100% = ?)

The Hypostatic Union claims Jesus is fully God and fully human at the same time.

Logical issue:

God is infinite → Jesus is finite.

God is all-knowing → Jesus did not know (Mark 13:32).

God cannot die → Jesus died.

God is unchanging → Jesus was born, grew, suffered, and died.

Contradiction: A being cannot be both infinite and finite, mortal and immortal, omniscient and ignorant at the same time.

.....

Two Wills Problem

Jesus has two wills (divine and human) according to the Hypostatic Union.

But wills belong to persons, not natures.

Contradiction: If Jesus has two wills, he must be two persons, not one.

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Contradictions in Eternal Begetting

A. Self-Existence vs. Begetting

The Trinity says:

The Son is eternally begotten of the Father.

But God is self-existent (not caused by another).

Contradiction:

If the Son is begotten, He has a source (the Father) and is not self-existent.

If He is self-existent, He cannot be begotten.

A thing cannot be both caused and uncaused.

B. Begetting Without Beginning

Begetting means a beginning of existence.

But the Son is said to be eternally begotten.

Contradiction: How can the Son be begotten (which implies a beginning) yet eternal (which means no beginning)?

3. Historical Context of Absurdity

A. Borrowed Pagan Concepts

Triads in Paganism:

Egyptian: Osiris-Isis-Horus.

Hindu: Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva.

Greek: Zeus-Poseidon-Hades.

Trinity’s Parallel: A politically expedient fusion of monotheism and pagan triadic worship.

B. Contradictory Councils

Council of Nicaea (325 CE): Declared Jesus “same substance” (homoousios) as the Father.

Council of Constantinople (381 CE): Added the Holy Spirit as co-equal.

Result: A doctrine built on political compromise, not divine revelation.

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Contradictions in the Trinity’s Hierarchy

A. Functional vs. Ontological Hierarchy

Some Christians say the Father has authority over the Son and Spirit.

But all three are supposedly equal in power and status.

Contradiction:

If the Father has authority, the Son is subordinate.

If the Son is subordinate, then He is not co-equal.

B. Authority in Heaven

Jesus said:

“To sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.” (Mark 10:40)

“The Father alone has set the times and dates.” (Acts 1:7)

Contradiction: If Jesus is God, why does He lack authority?

......

Contradictions in Atonement

A. Can God Die?

The Trinity claims Jesus is God.

Jesus died on the cross.

Contradiction:

If God can die, He is not eternal.

If God cannot die, then Jesus (who died) is not fully God.

B. Does God Need Sacrifice?

God is all-powerful and all-merciful.

Yet, the Trinity says God needed to sacrifice Himself to forgive sins.

Contradiction:

If God is all-powerful, He does not need sacrifice.

If He needed sacrifice, He is not all-powerful.

.....

Contradictions in Biblical Interpretation

A. The Trinity is Not Explicit in the Bible

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible.

Key verses (like 1 John 5:7) were forgeries.

Contradiction: If the Trinity is the core belief, why is it missing from scripture?

B. The Holy Spirit’s Role

The Holy Spirit is called “He” in some verses and “It” in others.

The Holy Spirit is sometimes depicted as separate from God.

Contradiction: Is the Holy Spirit God, or just God’s power?

........

4. Islamic Tawhid: Logical Monotheism

A. Quranic Clarity

Quran 112:1–4:

“Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

No Paradox: Allah is One, indivisible, and beyond human attributes (e.g., fatherhood, sonship).

B. Jesus in Islam

Quran 5:75:

“The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger... He used to eat food.”

Logical Consistency: A human prophet, born miraculously but mortal and subordinate to Allah.

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5. Preempting Christian Counterarguments

1. “The Trinity is a mystery!”

Rebuttal: If 3=1 is a “mystery,” why not 4=1 or 5=1? Truth must align with reason.

2. “Analogies like water-ice-steam explain it!”

Rebuttal: These are modalism (one substance, different modes), condemned as heresy. The Trinity claims three distinct persons, not modes.

3. “The Bible implies the Trinity!”

Rebuttal: The term “Trinity” is absent in scripture. Key verses (e.g., 1 John 5:7) are proven forgeries.

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Conclusion

The Trinity is logically absurd and philosophically incoherent:

1. It violates the law of non-contradiction (3≠1).

2. It borrows from pagan triads and political councils.

3. It relies on textual forgeries (1 John 5:7) to retroactively justify itself.

Islam’s Tawhid resolves these contradictions with uncompromising monotheism:

Quran 2:255: “Allah—there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of existence.”

The Trinity is not divine—it is a man-made paradox crafted to deify a prophet and appease pagan converts. Truth needs no contradictions.

1. The original revelation to Jesus (عليه السلام) was in Aramaic, not Greek.

2. His disciples, being Aramaic speakers, likely transmitted it in Aramaic, not Greek a foreign language.

3. The fact that the Gospels were written in Greek suggests the writers were not direct disciples.

4. The Gospel writers were educated Greek-speaking individuals who received the message orally from others.

5. Because of this indirect transmission, the Gospels remained anonymous for decades.

6. The earliest Gospel was written 30+ years after Jesus, far from the original events.

7. Even if Jesus could have revealed the entire New Testament in 3 years, it would have been impossible for his disciples to fully comprehend, memorize, and orally transmit it without errors, especially in an era without recording technology.

8. The divinization of Jesus was an evolving phenomenon; early Christians like Arians, Ebionites, and Nazarenes rejected it and were persecuted.

9. John, the last Gospel writer, introduced Logos for Jesus—a concept foreign to the earlier Gospels.

10. The term homoousios (same essence) used in the Trinity doctrine is absent from the Bible and originates from pagan philosophy.

11. The Bible contains over 500,000 textual variations, making divine preservation impossible.

12. Trinity is completely absent from the Bible—there is no single verse where Jesus explicitly teaches it.

13. All Abrahamic religions teach pure monotheism—one God—while the Trinity resembles pagan polytheistic beliefs, like those of Hindus, Greeks, and Egyptians.

14. The Bible has been altered multiple times, with major modifications at the Councils of Nicaea (325 CE), Constantinople (381 CE), and later by King James (1611 CE).The Bible has undergone multiple changes over time, with significant theological decisions made at the Councils of Nicaea (325 CE) and Constantinople (381 CE), which shaped Christian doctrine. Additionally, the King James Version (1611 CE) was a widely influential English translation based on earlier manuscripts, reflecting textual variations that had developed over centuries. While these events did not directly rewrite the Bible, they influenced its interpretation, canonization, and transmission.

15. The most rational view is Jesus as a prophet, not God.

16. The Holy Spirit was an afterthought, gradually inserted into the Trinity doctrine centuries later least defined and seems to play an insignificant role.

17. God cannot have a son, and if the Son is co-eternal, it contradicts the idea of fatherhood, since a father must exist before his son.

18. God is beyond creation—He does not beget nor is He begotten (Quran 112:3).

19. Hypostatic union is absurd—if Jesus is fully divine and fully human, it contradicts logic. How can someone be eternal and mortal, divine and human, dead and alive at the same time? Saying he is 100% of both means both natures fully influence each other. But these are physical natures, not just hypothetical or intangible concepts, so the claim is inherently contradictory.

20. Jesus’ physical body is created, yet it is 100% part of him. This means God is 100% created, because calling Jesus 100% divine and 100% human makes his humanity inseparable from his divinity. Therefore, God becomes a created being, which is impossible.

21. Jesus, being 100% mortal, was ignorant of the Hour (Mark 13:32). This means he was either 100% ignorant or 100% lying. If he was ignorant, he cannot be God. If he was lying, he cannot be morally perfect. How can someone “humble” themselves by lying?

22. Jesus is bound by space and time, as seen in John 16:7, where the Holy Spirit cannot descend while Jesus is still on Earth, proves that the Trinity is not one entity, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot exist in the same place simultaneously.

23. If Jesus is 100% human, then the Father and Holy Spirit must also be 100% human, because they are claimed to be one in their entirety.

24. The Trinity appears divided—if all three members share the same divine essence, then any change in one should affect all. But Jesus being 100% human did not change the Father or the Holy Spirit. This proves they are divided and not truly one being.

25. The Trinity is a contradiction at the essence level. For example, if the Holy Spirit could not come to Earth while Jesus was present, then they are separate beings. If Jesus changed by becoming 100% human, then the Father and Holy Spirit should have changed too, since they are all "one." No Christian can deny that Jesus went through change, yet the Father and Holy Spirit remained unchanged.

26. The Trinity claims the three persons share the same divine essence but are distinct. However, saying "the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit" means there is some point of unity (one essence) and some point of distinction (separate persons). This creates a logical paradox—if each member is fully God, then each is a separate God. If combined, they form a fourth God—the Godhead—which makes the Trinity a Quartinity, not a Trinity.

I could continue exposing more logical flaws in the Trinity, but let's save the next round for deep analysis of biblical verses, where we will further dismantle the doctrine using scriptural evidence.

Mall

03.18.2025 03:21PM

Con

Mall

2/23/2025, 3:12:46 PM

Ok, I will prove that the holy Spirit is the ONE Father God in the scriptures as well as reconciling it with the Quran, Allah as one.

tigerlord

2/24/2025, 1:06:15 AM

Well, it's my debate I can decide the framework and resolution. It's upto you to decide how you can respond

I have stated what I am to address. The opposing side according to the message, did not object . So the opposing side will have to agree or reject the Quran.

The holy spirit is God. Who is God? The Father. This is all according to biblical scriptures. Not according to logic or what you think. It doesn't work by what you think. It is what it is according to what is written. We find what is written about God. We don't find what we think.

So we find written in the book of first Corinthians chapter eight and at verse six.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

But there is what? One God the Father.

So what is that one God?

According to John 4:24 it says God is a Spirit.

What is the Father?

According to John 17:11 says Holy Father.

So Father God is Holy spirit.

Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Those are the three. We got a witness out of 1 Corinthians 8, John 4 and John 17.

That was a short work and made plain.

Now let's reconcile this to the Quran. This means the Quran teaches the same.

Surat Al-'Ikhlāş (The Sincerity) - سورة الإخلاص

112:1

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One

Right here it ties back to the scripture that said there is one God.

Now if the opposing side agrees with this passage in the Quran, the opposing side just agreed with the bible.

Who is this one Allah who is one according to the Quran?

Surah Al-Isra - 17:85

"They ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about the spirit. Say, “Its nature is known only to my Lord, and you ˹O humanity˺ have been given but little knowledge.”

Jesus which was a prophet raised up spoke of the spirit so people knew of the spirit but only so much was revealed and secret things God or Allah kept for himself, revealeth his secrets to his servants the prophets.

According to Surah Sad Ayat 72 , Allah is that spirit to breathe. When you breathe into a man as taught in the scriptures, is giving the breath of life . The spirit is life. Quran teaches He is the ever-LIVING LORD.

Surah Sad Ayat 38:72

"After I have created him and breathed into him of My spirit, fall you down, prostrating yourselves to him.”

Now the scriptures refer to God as being holy and describe him as just.

Let's look at Surah Fussilat 41:46

مَّنْ عَمِلَ صَـٰلِحًۭا فَلِنَفْسِهِۦ ۖ وَمَنْ أَسَآءَ فَعَلَيْهَا ۗ وَمَا رَبُّكَ بِظَلَّـٰمٍۢ لِّلْعَبِيدِ ٤٦

"Whoever does good, it is to their own benefit. And whoever does evil, it is to their own loss. Your Lord is never unjust to ˹His˺ creation."

Why?

Surah Al-Hashr

"He is Allah—there is no god except Him: the King, the Most Holy, the All-Perfect, the Source of Serenity, the Watcher ˹of all˺, the Almighty, the Supreme in Might,1 the Majestic. Glorified is Allah far above what they associate with Him ˹in worship˺!"

So there you have it. Both the bible and Quran, talking about that one God , no god but him, that spirit that breathed into man, the holy, the most holy spirit that one God is he Allah.

I yield.

Round 2

tigerlord

03.29.2025 06:30PM

Pro

First of all I thank my opponent for responding, though we end up on debating on different resolutions.

Lets see what conversation we had in private messages, we could not agree on same resolution.

We ended up debating on two different resolutions.

Conversation between Mall and tigerlord.

tigerlord

2/21/2025, 11:39:39 PM

I say trinity ha contradictions and is illogical. If you want this then good if not then concede.

tigerlord

2/22/2025, 8:59:06 PM

I will present resolution and full framework of the debate. And ask structure of debate and further rules as well. I hope everything will be clear in first round.

Mall

2/24/2025, 1:12:46 AM

Ok, I will prove that the holy Spirit is the ONE Father God in the scriptures as well as reconciling it with the Quran, Allah as one.

tigerlord

2/24/2025, 11:06:15 AM

Well, it's my debate I can decide the framework and resolution. It's upto you to decide how you can respond

Mall

2/25/2025, 4:12:36 AM

Can we agree on what I said to debate on or do you already with what I'm taking onus to prove ?

tigerlord

2/25/2025, 6:12:20 AM

Bro that is why in rules I said choose resolution before taking debate and in comment section. I want to debate on trinity.

Conclusion:

well my opponent has taken the debate in haste, and when we tried to have common resolution, we could not come up on one.

So it seems both want to debate on two different resolution, for that I asked my opponent to concede and he did.

By saying:

I yield.

Probably we cannot debate further on because of having two different resolutions, but on the other hand I still want to respond to the response from my opponent in first round because what interpretation he did on bible verses and Quranic verses are wrong. In fact as far as Quran is concerned they are absolutely wrong.

Lets dive into rebuttals:

My opponent stated:

“I have stated what I am to address. The opposing side according to the message, did not object . So the opposing side will have to agree or reject the Quran”

Rebuttal:

I put the condition that as this is my debate so I am going to decide the resolution and framework, but as far as your response is concerned you can decide whatever you want. And it turn out you have chosen the resolution you want which is against the rules. Where I stated we can debate on same resolution. And as we can see above I said if you do not want to debate about resolution I want the concede and probably you conceded at the end because of that.

Thanks for honesty and collaboration here.

But I want to respond for wrong interpretation of Quranic verses you mentioned any way for the sake of readers.

My opponent stated:

“The holy spirit is God. Who is God? The Father. This is all according to biblical scriptures. Not according to logic or what you think. It doesn't work by what you think. It is what it is according to what is written. We find what is written about God. We don't find what we think”

Rebuttal:

My opponent probably want to say that, Father is holy spirit or holy spirit is father.
We already know this is the believe of most of christian, they say father and holy spirit are one but distinct.
If he means holy spirit and father are same and not distinct then its something new and if he also removes Jesus out of picture being the 3rd person of godhood then its something new and we can look into it.
When my opponent say this is all according to biblical scripture not according to logic or what you think then he is not quite right about even his own stance. Because after all whatever he is saying is also his own interpretation.
All forms of explanation about believes of christian are interpretation of bible and among them what my opponent has presented is one too.

Lets see what else he has to say

My opponent stated with reference:

So we find written in the book of first Corinthians chapter eight and at verse six.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

But there is what? One God the Father.

So what is that one God?

According to John 4:24 it says God is a Spirit.

What is the Father?

According to John 17:11 says Holy Father.

So Father God is Holy spirit.

Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Those are the three. We got a witness out of 1 Corinthians 8, John 4 and John 17.

That was a short work and made plain.

Rebuttal:

I am not sure whether my opponent is excluding Jesus Christ.

John 4:24 states that God is one spirit, not the Holy Spirit, and the Father is one but not necessarily the same as the Holy Spirit.
John 17:11 says "Holy Father," but using the word holy with Father does not make Him the Holy Spirit. The word holy signifies a high and exalted status, not an identity as the Holy Spirit. In fact, we need to examine the original Greek words for accuracy.
John 17:11 also indicates that God is the Father of someone, which suggests that the Son would also be God or a demigod if He has a human element.
If the Bible is the criterion for deciding this matter, then what about the many other verses interpreted to support the Trinity, where each person is distinct yet considered God? How can my opponent's interpretation be considered correct over others?
I have reviewed my opponent’s interpretation of the Quran and found it to be unjust, distorting its true meaning and understanding. His interpretation is foreign, unfounded, strange, baseless, distorted, alienated, and misguided.

Let me explain:

Why this argument is flawed because it engages in circular reasoning and equivocation (shifting definitions of words to suit the argument). Here’s why:

1. False equivocation on "Spirit" and "Holy Spirit"

The argument states: "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24), so the Father is the Holy Spirit."
Problem: Saying "God is a spirit" means God is of a spiritual nature, not that He is the specific entity known as the "Holy Spirit" in Christian theology.
This is like saying: "Humans have a body, therefore, every human is the same body." That doesn't follow.

2. Selective Quoting and Ignoring the Trinity Doctrine

1 Corinthians 8:6 says "One God, the Father", but Trinitarians interpret this within the context of the Trinity. The verse doesn’t deny the Son and the Holy Spirit as divine.
If this verse disproves the Trinity, then why does Matthew 28:19 (which commands baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) exist?

3. Ignoring Counter Verses

If the Father is the Holy Spirit, then why does John 14:16 say:

"I will pray to the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever."

If the Father and the Holy Spirit were the same, Jesus wouldn’t say "another Comforter."

Conclusion

This is a weak and self-referential argument that assumes its own conclusion. It plays with word definitions, ignores key counterarguments, and doesn’t prove what it claims.

Lets see the verses in Greek and their analysis:

1. 1 Corinthians 8:6

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Greek Word Analysis:

εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ (heis Theos ho Patēr) = "One God, the Father"

θεός (Theos) – God
πατήρ (Patēr) – Father

εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (heis Kyrios Iēsous Christos) = "One Lord Jesus Christ"

κύριος (Kyrios) – Lord
Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Iēsous Christos) – Jesus Christ

✦ Problem with my Opponent’s Argument:

This verse clearly distinguishes between God the Father and Jesus Christ.
It does NOT say "the Holy Spirit is the Father."

2. John 4:24

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Greek Word Analysis:

πνεῦμα ὁ θεός (pneuma ho Theos) = "God is spirit"

πνεῦμα (pneuma) – spirit, breath, wind
θεός (Theos) – God

✦ Problem with my Opponent’s Argument:

This verse says "God is spirit" (πνεῦμα), not "God is the Holy Spirit."
The word πνεῦμα (spirit) is used generally to describe God’s nature (non-physical) and does not mean God is the Holy Spirit as a person.

3. John 17:11

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

Greek Word Analysis:

πάτερ ἅγιε (Patēr Hagie) = "Holy Father"

πάτερ (Patēr) – Father
ἅγιε (Hagie) – Holy

✦ Problem with my Opponent’s Argument:

"Holy Father" (πάτερ ἅγιε) does NOT mean "Holy Spirit."
The word "holy" (ἅγιε) is an adjective describing the Father's purity, not His identity as the Holy Spirit.
This phrase is nowhere used to say "Father = Holy Spirit."

Holy spirit is separate person in bible and my opponent cannot deny some part of bible and agree on some.

While I have proven how bible got corrupted and how it was compiled.

On the other hand I am going to discuss the trinity and bible and everything related to God according to christian in great depth and will discuss everything about it including the case of my opponent when I am analyzing the verses of bible. Right now I am going to discuss the part of Quran my opponent has presented and misunderstood everything about it.

My opponent stated:

Now let's reconcile this to the Quran. This means the Quran teaches the same.

Surat Al-'Ikhlāş (The Sincerity) - سورة الإخلاص

112:1

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One

Right here it ties back to the scripture that said there is one God.

Now if the opposing side agrees with this passage in the Quran, the opposing side just agreed with the bible.

Rebuttal:

Yes, it is 100% correct that Allah is one, and the verse states the truth. However, agreeing with the Bible is not part of it because this is not what the present Bible says. Lets take the original Bible, which was revealed to Prophet Jesus, out of the discussion, it is because the original Bible does not exist and is not present among us.

My opponent stated:

Surah Al-Isra - 17:85

"They ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about the spirit. Say, “Its nature is known only to my Lord, and you ˹O humanity˺ have been given but little knowledge.”

Surah Sad Ayat 38:72

"After I have created him and breathed into him of My spirit, fall you down, prostrating yourselves to him.”

Now the scriptures refer to God as being holy and describe him as just.

Let's look at Surah Fussilat 41:46

"Whoever does good, it is to their own benefit. And whoever does evil, it is to their own loss. Your Lord is never unjust to ˹His˺ creation."

Why?

Surah Al-Hashr

So there you have it. Both the bible and Quran, talking about that one God , no god but him, that spirit that breathed into man, the holy, the most holy spirit that one God is he Allah.

I yield.

Rebuttal:

Surah Al-Isra (17:85) – Arabic & English Translation

Arabic:

وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلرُّوحِ ۖ قُلِ ٱلرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى وَمَآ أُوتِيتُم مِّنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًۭا

🔹 Highlighted Word: ٱلرُّوحِ (Ar-Rūḥ) – The Soul / Spirit

English Translation (Sahih International):

"And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul (Ar-Rūḥ). Say, 'The soul is of the affair of my Lord, and you [mankind] have not been given of knowledge except a little.'”

Reference:

📖 Surah Al-Isra (17:85)

Lets see what Islam says about it and what is background.

Surah Al-Isra (17:85) refers to the soul (روح) of human beings, not the "Spirit of God."

Hadith Related to This Verse:

The following hadith explains the context of this verse when the Quraysh asked Prophet Muhammad ﷺ about the human soul:

Sahih al-Bukhari 125

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud (RA):

While I was walking with the Prophet ﷺ in a field, and he was resting on a palm leaf stalk, some Jews passed by. Some of them said to the others: "Ask him (the Prophet) about the soul." Some of them said: "What urges you to ask him about it?" Others said: "(Don't) lest he gives you a reply which you dislike." But they asked him, and the Prophet ﷺ kept silent and did not give them an answer. Then, he received revelation:

“And they ask you concerning the soul. Say: ‘The soul is of the affair of my Lord, and you have not been given knowledge except a little.’” (Qur'an 17:85)

Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3144 (Hasan)

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas (RA):

The Jews of Madinah asked the Prophet ﷺ about the soul, so Allah revealed the verse:

"And they ask you concerning the soul. Say: ‘The soul is of the affair of my Lord, and you have not been given knowledge except a little.’" (Qur'an 17:85)

Conclusion:

The Jews asked about human souls (روح الإنسان), not the Holy Spirit.
Allah revealed Qur'an 17:85, emphasizing that humans have very limited knowledge about the nature of the soul.
This verse does not support the claim that the "Spirit" mentioned here refers to God Himself or the Holy Spirit.

……………..

Difference Between Rūḥ, Rūḥ al-Qudus, Rūḥ al-Amīn, Rūḥ (as an Angel), and Rūḥ as Divine Assistance

1. Rūḥ (as Soul) – Referring to the Human Soul

This usage refers to the soul that Allah places in human beings.

Surah Al-Hijr (15:29)
فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُۥ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِى فَقَعُوا۟ لَهُۥ سَـٰجِدِينَ
"So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down to him in prostration."
Surah As-Sajdah (32:9)
ثُمَّ سَوَّىٰهُ وَنَفَخَ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِهِۦ ۖ وَجَعَلَ لَكُمُ ٱلسَّمْعَ وَٱلْأَبْصَـٰرَ وَٱلْأَفْـِٔدَةَ ۚ قَلِيلًۭا مَّا تَشْكُرُونَ
"Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His Spirit and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful."
Surah Sad (38:72)
فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُۥ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِى فَقَعُوا۟ لَهُۥ سَـٰجِدِينَ
"So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down to him in prostration."

2. Rūḥ al-Qudus (The Holy Spirit) – Referring to Angel Jibreel (AS)

This term is specifically used for Jibreel (AS), who brings revelation from Allah.

Surah Al-Baqarah (2:87)
وَلَقَدْ ءَاتَيْنَا مُوسَى ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ وَقَفَّيْنَا مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦ بِٱلرُّسُلِ وَءَاتَيْنَا عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ ٱلْبَيِّنَـٰتِ وَأَيَّدْنَـٰهُ بِرُوحِ ٱلْقُدُسِ
"And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Holy Spirit."
Surah Al-Baqarah (2:253)
وَءَاتَيْنَا عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ ٱلْبَيِّنَـٰتِ وَأَيَّدْنَـٰهُ بِرُوحِ ٱلْقُدُسِ
"And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Holy Spirit."
Surah Al-Ma’idah (5:110)
إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ ٱلْقُدُسِ
"When I supported you with the Holy Spirit."

3. Rūḥ al-Amīn (The Trustworthy Spirit) – Referring to Jibreel (AS)

Another name for Jibreel (AS), emphasizing his trustworthiness in delivering revelation.

Surah Ash-Shu'ara (26:193-194)
نَزَلَ بِهِ ٱلرُّوحُ ٱلْأَمِينُ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ ٱلْمُنذِرِينَ
"The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down upon your heart so that you may be among the warners."

4. Rūḥ (as an Angel) – Referring to Jibreel (AS) or a High-Ranking Angel

Used to describe Jibreel (AS) or an honored angel among the angels.

Surah An-Naba (78:38)
يَوْمَ يَقُومُ ٱلرُّوحُ وَٱلْمَلَـٰٓئِكَةُ صَفًّۭا لَّا يَتَكَلَّمُونَ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ ٱلرَّحْمَـٰنُ وَقَالَ صَوَابًۭا
"The Day when the Spirit and the angels will stand in rows, none will speak except one whom the Most Merciful permits, and he will say what is correct."
Surah Al-Qadr (97:4)
تَنَزَّلُ ٱلْمَلَـٰٓئِكَةُ وَٱلرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِم مِّن كُلِّ أَمْرٍۢ
"The angels and the Spirit descend therein by permission of their Lord for every matter."

5. Rūḥ (as Divine Assistance, Revelation, or Strengthening from Allah)

In this context, Rūḥ refers to divine guidance, assistance, or revelation rather than a specific being.

Surah Al-Ghafir (40:15)
يُلْقِى ٱلرُّوحَ مِنْ أَمْرِهِۦ عَلَىٰ مَن يَشَآءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِۦ لِيُنذِرَ يَوْمَ ٱلتَّلَاقِ
"He sends down the Spirit by His command upon whomever He wills of His servants to warn of the Day of Meeting."
Surah An-Nahl (16:2)
يُنَزِّلُ ٱلْمَلَـٰٓئِكَةَ بِٱلرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِۦ عَلَىٰ مَن يَشَآءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِۦ أَنْ أَنْذِرُوٓا۟ أَنَّهُۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّآ أَنَا۠ فَٱتَّقُونِ
"He sends down the angels with the Spirit by His command upon whomever He wills of His servants, telling them, 'Warn that there is no deity except Me, so fear Me.'"
Surah Al-Mujādilah (58:22)
أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ كَتَبَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمُ ٱلْإِيمَـٰنَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍۢ مِّنْهُ
"Those are the ones in whose hearts He has inscribed faith and whom He has supported with a Spirit from Him."

Conclusion

Rūḥ (روح): The human soul given by Allah.
Rūḥ al-Qudus (روح القدس): A title for Jibreel (AS).
Rūḥ al-Amīn (روح الأمين): Another title for Jibreel (AS), emphasizing his trustworthiness.
Rūḥ (روح) as an Angel: A reference to Jibreel (AS) or a high-ranking angel.
Rūḥ as Divine Assistance: Refers to revelation, divine guidance, or spiritual strengthening from Allah.

This structured breakdown clarifies how Rūḥ is used in different contexts in the Quran.

In the next round I will analyze the verses of the Bible which shows incompatibility with trinity and there seems to be some kind of human intervention into its passage or misinterpretation by Christian. And some verses which might not be from God at all.

I could do it in this round but it was Ramdhan and my health was not well so I would do it in the next round.

My opponent did not want to debate on the topic and agreed to yield this debate but I wanted to present the case for the information of readers.

Islam is best.

Not published yet

Round 3

Not published yet

Round 4

Not published yet

Round 5

Not published yet

tigerlord

02.21.2025 06:39AM

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@Mall

You are debating 7 other debates. Why you choose when you cannot actively participate.

tigerlord

02.20.2025 04:15PM

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@Mall

You broke the rule of the debate, read the description. Did I not mention that must discuss everything before accepting debate?

tigerlord

02.20.2025 03:22PM

Plz do not break rule to take the debate before discussing about it in private message.