Instigator / Pro
1
1500
rating
4
debates
62.5%
won
Topic
#5656
Christianity is more feminist than Islam
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
Strawbbycake
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1500
rating
1
debates
0.0%
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Description
No information
Round 1
Hello, welcome to this debate.
I guess it's a while since you've been back, based on your profile and sudden recent activity.
Since I dont know much about Islam, I think it is more fair if you present your case on why you think Islam is either just as feminist or more so than Christianity. I cant read Arabic so I may have to use a different translation if you provide verses from the hadiths and quran.
You can also ask me on why I think Christianity is feminist.
It's not been a while as this is my first time in this website, regardless thank you for having me.
Don't worry about reading Arabic, while indeed the noble Quran is at its purest in Arabic and translation leaves more room for human error in interpretation, such is unavoidable when non-Arabic speakers are involved in discussions about the Quran. When/if I mention verses for the Quran or the Hadiths I will translate them as best as I can, but also show them in Arabic in case you wished to fact check.
I will not ask why Christianity is feminist, as I do already believe that what Christianity introduced and brought to the table has helped progress and advance women's rights. You may still answer it if you wish as I think there's no doubt you know more about that than I do. That said I will instead ask why you believe Christianity to be more feminist as compared to Islam.
Since you've invited me to present my case first I'll try my best.
The Mothers
In Islam we are taught that who deserves your good companionship the most is your mother, and then your mother, and then your mother, and then your father. It is also taught that heaven lies at the mother's feet. That pleasing one's mother is regarded as part of pleasing God. That they must be respected, obeyed and treated with kindness. In Islam the mother's rights are greater than those of the father, and it is a duty to take care of them, especially more so the older and weaker they get.
The Wives
In Islam we are taught that the best of the Muslim men are those who treat their wives in the best manner. That it is the husband's duty to take care of her and that she has rights over her husband.
The Daughters
In Islam we are taught that it's a duty for us to raise well and educate our daughters. That whoever takes care of two girls until they reach adulthood, they and the prophet Muhammed will reach the day of resurrection together. And that if a man is patient with three daughters, feeds them and takes care of them with his wealth, they will shield him from hellfire.
As compared to the past
From its introduction, through these and many more, Islam had introduced many rights that women weren't privileged to, rights they weren't granted not just in the middle-east, but in most of the known world. Including the right to own and inherit property.
As compared to the current world
Even when put in comparison to today's world, there are principles here (and other principles of Islam I had not mentioned yet) that can be applied to modern society for the progression of women's rights and/or privileges. Not just in the outdated parts of the world, but even in some if not many 1st world countries as well. Such as respect for the mother (or for the parents in general) which I would argue, is becoming a waning concept in many peoples eyes. Especially the duty of taking care of your mother after she's taken care of you.
How it compares to Christianity
I'll be honest, I don't know much about Christianity beyond what is common knowledge and haven't done much research in this aspect yet. Hopefully Pro's argument can provide more context and substance as to what I am comparing Islam to.
Round 2
I get it if you’re tired and need to rush a little. We all have lives off the screen.
Nonetheless, some things are missing in your argument. You have mentioned the mother having rights over the father, and the wife having rights over her husband. I think you need to supplement those claims with either verses or clarify exactly what these rights are, and whether or not the husband/ father has rights over the wife and mother as well.
Otherwise, this can easily be construed as misandry, which isn’t feminism.
You have mentioned a few roles that are given respect in Islam. I suppose educating daughters and not leaving them out would be considered feminist, but I’m not sure if we are thinking of the same kind of education. If daughters are to be educated, does this mean learning the Quran and how to be a mother, or learning anything in general, like, they should be smart and capable?
There was a teeny problem that came to my head upon reading as well. You have written that mothers are respected (over the father?). The issue is, if a woman who is a mother is respected, it’s not necessarily because she’s a woman. It might be because she is bearing children, and that’s why she gets respect. Or perhaps it’s because she takes on a lot of the emotional toll that comes with raising kids. I’m not really sure why the mother is given priority in Islam, I think that’s something you need to explain further.
But right now, this point isn’t working. Not all women are mothers. And being respected as a mother doesn’t mean necessarily mean being respected for being a woman, because she had to be a mother and wife.
I will agree Islam did introduce a few things that were fairly feminist. The Judeo-Christian God did allow women to own and inherit property as well, even in the Old Testament.
And now I will establish how Christianity sees women.
1. Women are equal to men, but with different roles (because those roles are equal anyway).
2. Women and men are to help each other, they must reciprocate each other’s actions, especially in a marriage. They must be equally yoked.
3. We as Christians are to regard each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
God makes no distinction between the two, neither does He favor one people of a nation over the other. He DOES favor humble people over the prideful.
4. There are a few gender restrictions, and they are this: Women need to cover hair and keep it long, the men need it short and uncovered (they may be exceptions, Paul mentioned this a couple of times), men need to be leaders of church and home, and whatever the masculine or feminine fashion is, the genders have to wear their respective garments. Thats it. Girls can play sports, participate in science and math, and do other things, as long as it’s God's will or doesn’t go against His will. Boys can like pink and play with baby dolls, as long as he doesn’t end up too effeminate, which would mean breaking the other two rules.
Those are key teachings in the Bible, but the most important teaching is Jesus Himself. Christians are called to imitate Jesus as much as possible. One of the reasons why Jesus came in human form was to demonstrate what to actually do as a Christian.
So one of the ways Jesus did this was with the Samaritan woman at the well. She was basically what people today would call a “bop.” She had five husbands previously, and lived with another man when she met Jesus. And when Jesus met her, He talked with her, discussed the Messiah with her, and revealed Himself to be the one she was looking for, and she ran and told the whole village.
What should be notable was that the disciples (12 teenagers who followed Jesus) were surprised Jesus was talking to a woman alone. I don’t know if they had dirty minds or something, but if they were surprised, it’s probably because it wasn’t customary for a man to talk to a woman.
Another fun example was Jesus driving the merchants out of the temple. Not only did Jesus do that because He can (disagree if you want, but Jesus is God, and the temple was a place to worship God), but because the merchants were selling where the Gentiles and women were worshiping. What happened was that over time, the temple got segregated, and people had to worship in different areas. The Gentiles and women got the courtyard in front of the temple, and I think the Jewish men got to go inside (might need to fact check that one). It wasn’t supposed to be like that. And yet the merchants were disrupting the worship of these people in the front courtyard, so Jesus drove them out for that too, with a whip.
I should mention that although Christians are to imitate Jesus, that doesn’t mean copying everything He did, but trying to be LIKE Him as much as possible. Otherwise, we’d try to walk on water.
Now, to the main point of contention.
The very hadith (or verse?) that prompted this debate, along with another secret reason, was the sahih al bukhari 304.
I have tried to look at a few explanations for this hadith, and I have come down to these two questions:
Even if women are to be “deficient” in some way, why are they punished for their deficient nature, making up the majority of people in hellfire? And if that isn’t why women make up the majority of hell, then why did the Prophet say they will?
There is another verse I have just remembered, but I need to read it in context first, before I ask more questions.
P.S: I have read the other parts of the sahih al bukhari section with the verse. I guess the whole thing is about periods.
You are correct, much is missing from my argument and I wish to correct this.
Of course the husbands and the father also have their rights, I just thought they did not need mentioning given men's natural dominance in the affairs of society prior to Islam's introduction. But you are right, it is still important to demonstrate that it does not biasedly favor women over men.
Edit: Sadly I have run out of time and will leave this not properly addressed, again I take full responsibility for this.
There is also the issue of lacking sources, which I'll address now.
In Islam we are taught that who deserves your good companionship the most is your mother, and then your mother, and then your mother, and then your father.
It is also taught that heaven lies at the mother's feet.
That pleasing one's mother is regarded as part of pleasing God.
(To be completely transparent, الْوَالِدِ here could translate to parent, and could also translate to father. The word here is the masculine version of parent, but Arabic does not have a gender neutral version of it)
In Islam we are taught that the best of the Muslim men are those who treat their wives in the best manner.
That it is the husband's duty to take care of her and that she has rights over her husband.
That whoever takes care of two girls until they reach adulthood, they and the prophet Muhammed will reach the day of resurrection together.
And that if a man is patient with three daughters, feeds them and takes care of them with his wealth, they will shield him from hellfire.
I suppose educating daughters and not leaving them out would be considered feminist, but I’m not sure if we are thinking of the same kind of education. If daughters are to be educated, does this mean learning the Quran and how to be a mother, or learning anything in general, like, they should be smart and capable?
Becoming a good mother (or a good parent in general) requires being smart and capable. But I digress, I understand what you mean.
The prophet's first wife, Khadija, was not only a successful and wealthy merchant, but was even the one who hired the prophet Muhammed. And when they married he had little wealth of his own and moved into her house. While this was prior to the introduction of Islam, this can put confidence that the prophet Muhammad, and by extension Islam, respected smart and capable women who could hold their own rather than exclusively seeing them as mothers.
Aisha, the daughter of the prophet Muhammed's best friend Abu Bakr, and then later his wife, did not only contribute greatly to the spread of the prophet Muhammed's message duo to her memory and intellect, to the point that the prophet Muhammed would direct others to her for questions, and being known for narrating thousands of Hadiths. But she also knew other subjects such as medicine and poetry. She was also politically influential enough as to even be able to lead the opposition against the fourth caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib. (who she later reconciled with) After that she spent the rest of her years as a teacher. This is a woman raised properly under Islam.
While these might look like anecdotes, those two women are held in very high regard by the Muslim community. And intellect and literacy are held in high respect in both men and women in Islam.
There was a teeny problem that came to my head upon reading as well. You have written that mothers are respected (over the father?). The issue is, if a woman who is a mother is respected, it’s not necessarily because she’s a woman. It might be because she is bearing children, and that’s why she gets respect. Or perhaps it’s because she takes on a lot of the emotional toll that comes with raising kids. I’m not really sure why the mother is given priority in Islam, I think that’s something you need to explain further.
You are mostly correct actually, it is generally because of the burdens of motherhood that the mother is respected. Including childbearing and breastfeeding, two burdens the mother can uniquely perform that the father can not.
But right now, this point isn’t working. Not all women are mothers. And being respected as a mother doesn’t mean necessarily mean being respected for being a woman, because she had to be a mother and wife.
Motherhood is not the only quality Islam respects and encourages in women and in people in general. Respect of mothers no more encourages disrespecting women who aren't mothers or depriving them of respect than respect of fathers encourages disrespecting men who aren't fathers or depriving them of respect.
1. Women are equal to men, but with different roles (because those roles are equal anyway)
If you mean to say they are different in specific areas but equal in the sum then indeed. This is the case in Islam for example men are duty bound to answer the call to arms, where as for able bodied women it was voluntary. But men had their own privileges such as for example shown in Surah al baqara I linked earlier.
2. Women and men are to help each other, they must reciprocate each other’s actions, especially in a marriage. They must be equally yoked.3. We as Christians are to regard each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Such are the cases in Islam as well. Islam even further regards Christians and Jews as people of the book.
4. There are a few gender restrictions, and they are this: Women need to cover hair and keep it long, the men need it short and uncovered
I do not recall a long hair equivalent in Islam. But we do indeed have the head covering equivalent in the Hijab.
I do not recall a restriction on hair length or hair covering for men in Islam.
men need to be leaders of church and home
Such is usually the case in Islam as well.
and whatever the masculine or feminine fashion is, the genders have to wear their respective garments.
Not the exact wordings but Islam does forbid men from imitating women and vice versa. This includes gender unique clothing.
Thats it. Girls can play sports, participate in science and math, and do other things, as long as it’s God's will or doesn’t go against His will. Boys can like pink and play with baby dolls, as long as he doesn’t end up too effeminate, which would mean breaking the other two rules.
This fits in Islam as well. Girls are not forbidden from playing sports or participating in science, math, etc. and are even encouraged to be healthier and smarter. (not because its encouraged in girls specifically, but because its encouraged in general).
And likewise boys can like these things as long as they're not trying to imitate girls. I'd even argue full grown men can wear pink without imitating women.
Now, to the main point of contention.The very hadith (or verse?) that prompted this debate, along with another secret reason, was the sahih al bukhari 304.I have tried to look at a few explanations for this hadith, and I have come down to these two questions:Even if women are to be “deficient” in some way, why are they punished for their deficient nature, making up the majority of people in hellfire?
Firstly, for the benefit of the readers, here is the hadith Pro is referring to.
Secondly I do appreciate that you've done your research and looked into the matter first.
Thirdly, duo to the difficulty and complexity of this, Islam compels me to inform you that I am not an imam, sheikh or scholar. You probably already knew that. And that I am unqualified to confidently claim my answer is correct. (even with the help or more qualified reliable sources) So take my answer with a grain of salt.
Alright, without further ado I'll try to explain this as best as I can.
Women are not "deficient". This is a "deficiency" (or more accurately a decrease or reduction) of their burdens. For example, the fact that a woman is exempt from praying and fasting during her period is a reduction of her religious burden.
Women made up the majority of people in hellfire because women made up the majority of people.
These are quite lengthy but they are where I got my reasoning.
And if that isn’t why women make up the majority of hell, then why did the Prophet say they will?
The Prophet Muhammed was testifying to what God showed him.
Round 3
Since you didn’t have time to address the issue of the rights men may or may not have over women, I’ll let you do it next round.
Seems like your assertions that prove Islam is trying to be feminist are correct and supported. It’s strange then that a lot of Muslim countries seem to ignore their own doctrine.
It looks like since the mother is doing more work, they have more respect because they earned it. That makes sense from a secular point of view.
In christianity, respect is due, whether or not somebody earned it. We believed everybody sinned and that God already loves them even though they’re sinning, including us, so everybody gets the same amount of respect, regardless of whether or not they “deserved” it.
Therefore in Christianity both the mother and father get the same amount of respect, so that it’s really equal. I think you will address some of the advantages men have that would balance out women having advantages in your next argument, as you have said.
As of right now, Christianity definitely sees both the mother and father (and therefore both women and men) getting the same amount of respect. As for Islam, you can explain.
Well, I see that you’ve put your disclaimer. It’s funny how the source you’ve provided to me was the first one I looked at.
Even if this “deficiency” is better translated as “reduction” because of women’s duties at the time, why did the Prophet cite it as one of the reasons why women are the majority of people in Hellfire?
The women asked why they are the majority in hellfire, and the prophet said:
“You curse others often and you are ungrateful for your livelihood. I have not seen anyone with reductions in mind (ability to testify?) and religion more capable of removing from a resolute man than you.”
So basically he’s stating the reasons why they make up a majority. He didn’t mention women making up a majority of people being the reason. And even if they do, the Prophet is saying that women are making up a majority in hellfire because of their reductions in ability to testify due to cultural norms and not praying all of the prayers when on a period. The women asked a question and his response is an answer to that. What is the point of allowing women to take a break when on their period if they’re going to get punished for it? And why are they punished for adhering to cultural norms?
Are men also punished for following cultural norms? They also don’t have any reductions in religion, at least so far. Maybe you can provide a hadith or quran verse for that.
If women are a majority, then the majority of mankind are at risk of hellfire for their reductions in religion and ability to testify for certain things. You can clarify what those reductions are, but that doesnt take away the fact those reductions are why women (or in the future the majority of mankind) are in hellfire.
What also bothered me was a verse also from that same website you gave me, (funny how i didnt see that one) and it was this:
“Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form a minority.” (Sahih Muslim 2738)
The website cleared this up by saying that what the Prophet saw isn’t permanent. It can change at a later time, supposedly by the influx of women coming into both places.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Allah is the same forever and ever. He doesn’t change his mind, and is the same yesterday and today, as well as unbiased, like the Christian God. Why is this important?
The website isn’t denying that women were a minority in Heaven at one point.
If women outnumber men by a lot in the future, it certainly isn’t the case in the past. Likely, the sex ratio for women and men in the Prophet’s time would be somewhere around 50:50, like today. I think the sex ratio among Muslims is also around 50:50 as well during the Prophet’s time, because of chance.
According to IslamQA, Muslims come before Allah, and if they aren’t granted mercy they are in hellfire for some time, unlike christianity, where christians go to heaven forever cuz they’re a christian, male or female, regardless of what they’ve done.
So if the verse is true and the Prophet saw that women are a minority in Heaven at a time when women are around 50% of the population, doesn’t that mean Allah is forgiving less women than men? If he is unbiased, then with a population almost equally split between two genders, there should be around the same amount of each gender going into heaven.
And whatever the reason was, wouldnt Allah still have that reason today? In other words, if Allah was doing this to an evenly split population back then, wouldnt he be doing that with today's population right now? (people still die as of right now, and this is if he was consistent from the beginning of time)
If Allah were to be random (i know he isn’t random) and forgive or sentence people randomly, then 50% of the people before him would be in heaven.
50% of that number would be male, the other 50% female, because humankind is about evenly split between the two genders.
An unbiased person shouldnt be leaning towards a certain group. If somebody were to sort their candies into one group (candies I want to eat) or the other (candies i don't want to eat) and a certain candy is sorted into a group more than another (more snickers in the candies I want to eat group) that person has a bias towards that candy, even if there are equal amounts of each candy (half are snickers, half are reeses).
And it appears so far that Allah is sorting a certain “candy” into one group more than the other.
Furthermore, if you were to look at Sahih muslim 2737, you find this:
“I had a chance to look into the Paradise and I found that majority of the people was poor and I looked into the Fire and there I found the majority constituted by women.”
According to Ibn Abbas this is what the Prophet said. This line was only a hadith or two before the one saying women make up a minority in Paradise. Since the Quran or hadiths weren’t supposed to contradict themselves, I’d say those two hadiths are meant to clarify each other and affirm each other. If women make up a majority in hellfire, then women make up a minority in heaven, that’s what these two hadiths appear to be suggesting.
If what the prophet is seeing is true for a certain time period, then that meant at one point, Allah was sending more women to hell than to heaven, dealing with a population similar to ours today, why is that?
I don’t think there will be more women than men in the Prophet’s time, at least to the point where humankind is mostly female, because I think it is a belief in Islam that when that happens that’s a sign of the end times. We’re still here.
So it definitely has to be 50/50.
If Allah is biased against women and forgiving more men than women, then that certainly contrasts to Christianity. The bible, in response to Jews believing they have a greater right to Heaven than Gentiles, says that “there is no jew or greek… (i forgot the rest of the verse, oop)”
But it’s saying that God isnt biased.
This includes men and women.
Forfeited
No need to apologize, here it is.
https://justpaste.it/cumjj
And I don't really think so. Even had I posted it, I still was largely unprepared for most of your questions. I doubt this would've changed the outcome much.
Sorry for not seeing this earlier. I was really busy with school.
I would love to see your argument. Had you posted it, you wouldve won, assuming that it was done well.
Damn, I ran out of time just a minute short. Oh well, I wasn't proud of my performance here anyway, I don't mind forfeiting this, I just feel bad about having potentially wasted your time.
I managed to copy/paste my argument, so if you're still curious to read it I could private message it to you if you wish.
I feel bad that my first argument is lacking. I woke up and there were a few hours left and I was tired and I hastily put this together. I still take responsibility for how it turned out as I should've started earlier, hopefully my follow-up arguments look more complete and dignified.
Since this debate is on feminism, womens rights can be discussed as well by either side.
Given how similar both religions are, this would be interesting if we ever discuss about them.
Thank you for joining this debate. Since you are Muslim, you should be able to present actual trachings from the Quran, rather than rant on how sexist and stupid both religions are.
Good luck on this debate. I hopee neither of us will have ill will towards each other by the time arguments close.
I just wanted to comment real quick here that I am indeed a Muslim. Born and raised in Egypt. So I do hope that this satisfies OP's wishes to debate one in this topic.
Maybe it would be better to discuss women's rights in both religions.
I mean, in terms of rights of women, sure.
They would agree and it's used as an insult. They are right to use it as an insult
I’ve met a few Muslims who would disagree. Not sure if any are active or not right now.