Instigator / Pro
18
1774
rating
98
debates
77.55%
won
Topic
#5318
Which 12 year old would win in a fight: Aang or Naruto.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
3
Better sources
6
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3
After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
Benjamin
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- 1,400
Contender / Con
15
1527
rating
8
debates
87.5%
won
Description
Morals are off for both characters, and they start with no knowledge of each other. Both combatants are completely rested, healed and equiped with their normal gear.
The battlefield is the valley where Sasuke and Naruto had their big fights. They start on their own statue with the waterfall in between them.
PRO: Aang
CON: Naruto
Round 1
Pro
#1
12 year old Aang defeated the fire lord during Sozins comet. Naruto at 12 had not even taken the chunin exam. Naruto does not have a single win condition, while Aang has numerous.
Naruto has no win conditions
At the age of 12, Naruto has not developed any significant attack. He has his throwing weapons, hand to hand combat, and his shaddow clones. Airbending alone counters all of this. Aang can create distance to Naruto by just blowing at him. He can detect attacks from multiple angles by sensing vibrations in the air, and he has shown a remarkable ability to dodge everything you can throw at him. Plus, his airbending is capable of easily cutting up giant insects which have a strong skeletal structure. So Aang should be able to destroy all the shaddow clones and deflect all the throwing weapons with very simple broad airbending strokes. Naruto will eventually think about surprising him from below ground, but once he does that, Aang will instantly crush him with earthbending. Rock Lee, which was way stronger than Naruto physically, was very vulnerable to being crushed by sand. Aangs seismic sense allows him to have full knowledge of everything that Naruto does, so long as he is connected to the ground or to the air, even when he isn't looking. If Naruto manages to get close, that only means that Aang allows it, since he could easily just blow him away. Remember than all bending tequniques are just martial arts, and Aang has mastered all of them, while Naruto is just throwing basic punches and kicks. Plus, Aang is a natural airbender, so he is much MUCH faster than the normal human in his series, who are all basically superhuman anyways since they survive being slammed into giant rocks. Aang can run on water through speed alone. Plus, he can react to natural lightning and dodge or redirect it. His durability is greater than anything Naruto has shown up to this point in his series.
If Naruto somehow got a hit in against Aang, he would get serious and activate the avatar state. Now Naruto is fighting the combined skill of 1000 fully developed martial arts masters with all five chakra natures who have the power to move entire islands, split mountains, and casually moving cities. These types of feats only appear in Naruto towards the middle of shippuden. The first Naruto character who could beat the avatar state is Pain. So kid Naruto has no chance.
Aang has multiple win conditions
Waterbending
Not even Kakashi was able to break out of a waterprison. So if Aang manages to trap Naruto in a ball of water, he loses instantly. Waterbending can also cut through solid rocks like Hama showcases, so a bloodlusted Naruto would slice through Naruto like hot butter. Aang can cover himself in water and make large tentacle arms, if Naruto tries to enter into CQC with the water octopus, he will be grabbed and dragged underwater, or simply sliced up. Don't forget that waterbenders can also just overwhelm Naruto with a giant wave and then freeze him and all his shaddowclones in place. Aang can also make an enourmous volume of water into hot steam, and then move it around Naruto, cooking him alive.
Earthbending
Aang can just drag Naruto underground from a distance and crush him. Or he could surprise him with a large rock spike instantly piercing him from behind before he can react. If Naruto gets hit by a fast moving rock, that is going to break his bones. In the avatar state, Aang can bend lava, which in the Naruto universe is a Kage level technique.
Firebending
This needs no explanation. If Naruto catches fire, there is nothing he can do. If he jumps into the water, Aang will win. If he tries to roll around on the ground, Aang will win. If he does neither of these, he will burn to a crisp. If Naruto enters CQC with Aang, the avatar will dodge his attacks easily and wait for an opening to strike unexpectedly, throwing a firebending punch which sets Naruto ablaze.
Airbending
If Aang were bloodlusted, he would literally be breathtaking, and could also do many more dangerous techniques like forcing a huge ammount of air into Narutos lungs, exploding them. With his staff, he can create enormous airblades that can cut through bones easily from a hundred meters away. If he opens the fin on the end of the staff, he can create gushes off wind that will throw Naruto into the ground at deadly speeds. All airbending is invincible, and Aangs breath is strong enough to stop and cool down a huge wave of lava. Temari, a Naruto character who is very obviously superior to Naruto at this point in the series, is considered so strong only based on her ability to airbend. Aangs airbending is way more versatile than hers and doesn't require holding onto a large fan, plus gives him the ability to fly.
Chakra
Naruto is limited by his chakra reserves. Meanwhile, Aang does not have any such limitations. As long as he has stamina, he will be able to use his entire arsenal again and again. And as an air nomad, he has superhuman levels of endurance and stamina. He never gets out of breath, and his body can work tirelessly for hours. The only way to reduce his fighting capacity is to actually hurt him. And nothing that Naruto can throw at him will even get close to him.
Avatar state
In his final form, Aang is able to completely curbstomp Naruto, no debate. He will be orders of magnitude smarter, stronger, more experienced and skilled, plus unlimited stamina. Meanwhile, Narutos power buff comes at the expense of intelligence. When he goes into one-tailed beast cloak mode he becomes stronger and faster, but he gets animal level intelligence, and it also harms his skin and threatens to make the fox break out. Basically, in their powered-up states, Naruto will just run straight at Aang, and will easily be blocked, deflected or dodged. Not to mention that the Avatar state just has demonstrably way more raw power than even the 5-tails chakra cloak, but Naruto even at 13 is only able to access tail number one, and only after being thoroughly beat up.
Mentality and style
Aang has way more IQ and battle IQ. Naruto shouts before all of his attacks, making them incredibly easy to read. Aang is fluent in multiple battle styles connected to each element:
- Earth: Waiting, observing and counterattacking.
- Air: Actively evading attacks looking for an opening or tiring the opponent.
- Water: Turning defence into offense.
- Fire: Ruthless offense.
Naruto at this point only has one style. Making shaddow clones, throwing his kunai, shouting loudly, and running at the opponent. Aang is way more flexible and adaptable.
Aang is superhuman
He survives getting slammed into rocks all the time. Even without airbending he was able to easily stay behind the back of a decently athletic kid, completely undetected. And he can run on water by speed alone. Aang casually rides sea monsters while Naruto struggles with snakes and toads much smaller. Narutos superhumanity at this point just means jumping from tree to tree and throwings hands and kunai. In ATLA, Ty Lee and Mai can do just that, and yet they are fodder compared to Aang. The bending styles, which Aang mastered all of, are literally just martial arts. So he has taijutsu skills as well. When in the avatar state, Aang gets the combined hand-to-hand combat skills of an entire millenia of masters. Plus, the avatar state makes you WAY stronger physically to the point where you can break free from large steel chains. Sure, Naruto later on in the series is able to battle Gods and the like, but early on he was way more grounded, nothing compared to the Avatar state which is at the very least demigod level.
Aang is dynamic
He thinks on his feat, has an arsenal of 4 elements that have practically unlimited flexibility, and has more than 100 times as much experience as Naruto at this point. There is no way you can argue that he wouldn't find a way to overcome any advantage in raw strenght you may think that Naruto posesses.
Conclusion:
There can be 0 doubt that Aang has the means to take out 12 year old Naruto in a physical confrontation. But there can be very big doubts that Naruto could even land a single hit.
Con
#2
For the voters, I mention that when dealing with fictional characters in different fictional universes from different tv shows anyone can write a script where their character wins. Those scripts are made by imagination and can't be verified. Moving forward I will be comparing the two characters stats, make a conclusion and not engage too much in a discussion about hypothetical, imaginary turn of events in a fighting script made by PRO or CON. I will not address my opponents stories since they are a script of what will happen made by him.
AGE COMMENT
"12 year old Aang defeated the fire lord during Sozins comet."
Wrong. Aang was 12 when he was told he is the avatar. Sometime after that Aang left the temple, got frozen then spent minimum 1 year of training before facing Ozai. Aang at 12 did not even start training fire bending.
In the beginning of "Naruto" Part 1 he is stated to be 12yo and from various sources who try to date the events in the show is known that he turns 13yo around the time when Tsunade becomes Hokage and Sasuke leaves the village. That gives me approximately 70-80 episodes before those events take place as a reliable sources for Naruto's skills since he turns 13 later that year. His birthday is stated to be Oct 10th and the events in the first 70-80 episodes are between Jan 18th - Sep 22nd.
VERSE DIFFICULTY
My opponent argues that Naruto has no win conditions. Naruto even in this early age is a shinobi. He is a ninja that lives in a ninja world. The overall difficulty of that universe is much harder than Avatar's. The overall power scale difference is huge. There's multiple characters in Naruto's universe that can destroy planets and have god features. The Avatar is the strongest in his world and he barely compares to what Naruto will meet later.
Naruto is highly proficient compared to Aang in using deadly weapons and attack strategies meant for battle. Aang is a monk living among other peaceful monks, having a peaceful childhood, playing games with other kids, using his air bending for fun etc..
- "ninja" - 'one who is invisible'; or "shinobi" - 'one who sneaks'; is a covert agent, mercenary, or guerrilla warfare expert in feudal Japan. The functions of a ninja included siege and infiltration, ambush, reconnaissance, espionage, deception, and later bodyguarding and their fighting skills in martial arts, including ninjutsu.
- "monk" - is a person who practices religious asceticism by living a monastic lifestyle, either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decides to dedicate his life to serving other people and serving God, or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.
SPEED
12 y.o. Aang has not shown any examples of him moving at extraordinary hyper speed. He is shown to run fast around people and the walk on water is easier since he is an air bender also. It was never shown in the show that Aang can move and disappear in the blink of an eye like Naruto. Naruto in his feral Nine Tails chakra state is faster than Haku. Haku is so fast with his Crystal Ice Mirrors that he could intercept Kakashi's Raikiri. Kakashi is so fast that he could cut a lightning bolt in half with Raikiri. Haku was also so fast that it was impossible for Sasuke to detect him with his Sharingan. Naruto has been shown multiple times to move at lighting fast speeds like the example I just gave. Agility and flexibility would be a tie since there's no position or move that the one can do and the other cant.
VERSATILITY AND SKILLS
There's no evidence that Aang has learned or even knows about breathtaking techniques therefore it comes from PRO's imagination. We've seen Aang fly with his stick, create air spheres, use air attacks with which he usually is able to reflect things and push people away + destroy objects. Water prison is another asertment from the imagination of PRO, not shown in the show at all. Water and Earth bending attacks also have no speed that can worry Naruto.
Experience and fighting IQ goes to Naruto usually since he's a ninja and he's trained on the battlefield. The only time it can be otherwise is when Aang is in A.S..
Narutos ninjutsu skills include transforming himself into any object or person, substitute himself with an nearby object, being able to make 1000 clones of himself, create Rasengan which is kage level jutsu, summon toads capable of matching Aang water and air bending techniques. PRO cannot contest that since Naruto learned and used those techniques before episode 70 . Naruto also have fighting gear that is specifically meant for battle : shurikens, kunais, smoke and explosive bombs etc... Naruto is also able to walk on water and other surfaces upside down or vertically.
BONUS POWERS
Aang has the Avatar state which gives him access to the powers of other Avatars. They are still just people who bend the 4 elements though, they are not close on the scale of durability, speed and raw power to Naruto in his special mode. Naruto's bonus power is Kurama which can give him abilities with which he can blitz through any Avatar. If PRO states that Naruto can't access those forms at this age he is wrong. Naruto doesn't access Kurama at this point willingly but Kurama takes over when he is weak. If Aang in the Avatar state can keep up somehow with the power and speed of Naruto with 1 Tail, Naruto will just get angrier and get more tails. Theres not any Avatar that can handle more than 3-4 tailed powered Naruto.
DURABILITY
Naruto's and Kurama's chakra helps him enhance his physicals capabilities and develop superhuman characteristics . Naruto's chakra reserves are not a problem either since he is an Uzumaki and Jinchuriki. Naruto is seen often being thrown at high speeds at solid and massive objects, getting flamed by Sasuke's and other ninja's fire jutsus, being eaten alive by a snake, surviving explosions next to him without a scratch and many more. Naruto in Kurama mode also have instant regeneration and impregnable skin . That can be seen when Sasuke pierced through his chest or when the wounds from Haku's needles were healing instantly.
Conclusions so far:
Base Level Naruto and Base Level straight out of the temple Aang are almost equal but you can say Naruto is more versatile.
Reasons:
- Ninjas are overall better prepared for battle than monks.
- Difference in speed/power/durability in this state is not significant. Aang's strong air slams/slashes can be matched with Naruto's rasengan, numerous clones, deception jutsus, more tools, summoning jutsus etc. They are both shown to reflect or react to fast objects coming at them. Both are shown to be more durable than the average human.
- Naruto's verse is higher tier on the power scale.
- Aang has not learned all 4 elements yet
It would come down to if Naruto's special mode is better than the Avatar state. The conclusion from weighting out the stats is that Avatar state Aang cannot defeat anything higher than a 3 Tailed Form.
Reasons:
- . Naruto's versatile tactics as a shinobi trained to kill and large range of jutsus can surprise Aang who is a monk in a world without jutsus, but do not suffice since the Avatar state will control all 4 elements and will be more diversified and prepared.
- Naruto's Feral Mode will give him boosted speed, power, energy, durability but that is still not enough to overweight the attacks of all 4 elements on a larger scale.
- With Naruto's Chakra Cloak (1-3 tails) is a much closer fight. The amp in speed, power and durability are getting too much for anyone in the Avatar verse. Even if the Avatar is able to perform City Level attacks their physical characteristics do not grow equally. Meaning, just because their power of controlling the elements grows drastically in the Avatar state and they can move islands their body does not become equally great/durable/powerful/fast. Aang in the Avatar state would not be able to take a blow through the chest and heal. He in fact died by being struck by lighting in the Avatar mode (saved later) . Aang wont be able to take the same amount of raw physical straight attacks as Naruto wrapped in chakra cloak. Speed in this mode goes to Naruto since he moves in lighting speeds not only reacts to lighting speeds.
- 4 Tails Form Naruto is an overkill. The 2nd version of the chakra cloak is going to be too OP for Aang. Speed of attacks is unmatchable. Tailed Beast Bombs can destroy cities and mountains. Naruto's speed and power alone equal blitz kill before Aang gets to do anything.
- Avatar State Aang will have nothing in his disposal to stop 5,6,7 or 8 Tail Jinchuriki Mode Naruto based on their speed, power, durability difference.
SUMMARY:
-PRO has errors in his timeline and character skillset of that time
-Kurama boost every stat Naruto has to ungodly amounts too much for anyone from Avatar's verse to handle.
-Avatar state boost Aangs bending techniques, fight IQ, gives him all 4 elements but fails to give him the speed, strength, power and durability needed to stay in a fight with Naruto's Special Mode.
-Even though we have not seen Naruto going to anything above 1 Tail at this age nothing from what is said in the show or the manga (or in the rules of this debate) prevents him to in a hypothetical fight. One of Naruto's feats is to add extra tails when the fight required him to and that's not based on age.
- SOURCES IN THE COMMENTS
Round 2
Pro
#3
Thank you, baggins.
Age
End of series, Aang was still 12 years old [1], this is not very controversial. That Naruto enrolled in the chunin exams as a 13-year old [2], that might be wrong, so I will give CON 70 episodes.
Verse difficulty
Monk vs Ninja
CON whips out wikipedia definitions as though the real-life meaning of ninja and monk prove anything about fictional characters who use magic to fight. This is a hillariously absurd argument.
The avatar state stomps the early Naruto verse
Aang is at least 3 orders of magnitude more powerfull than anyone else in his universe, while kid Naruto is amongst the weakest in his universe. Narutos verse is higher on the powerscale, but only after several hundred episodes. If the Avatar State was in OG Naruto, he would wipe the floor with the Sannin and the Hokage. I stated in round 1 that Pain and his Chibaku Tensei is the first feat in Naruto that can even be compared to the power of the avatar state. CON has not even attempted to respond to these crucial points.
Speed
If Naruto cannot speedblitz Aang, he loses.
The correct way to speedscale Naruto
Lord Raikage is the fastest living ninja in the shinobi world during the 4th great Shinobi war, this fact is unquestionable. His signature most powerfull attack is stated in the databook to be almost as fast as light. 16 year old Naruto did not surpass the Raikages speed untill he had become a perfect Jinchuriki, which made him more powerfull and much faster than Kurama was on his own. For CON to assert that 12 year old Naruto did at any point move even close to lightspeed, is the worst example of powerscaling gone wrong that I have ever seen.
Speedscaling Aang
General Iroh is able to react to and intercept natural lightning, and there is no difference in animation styles between natural and artificial lightning in the series. Keep in mind, he says that once the lightning enters your fingers, you have to consciously lead it through your body and around the hearth. Which means that lightning redirectors are perceiving, moving and thinking at the speed of lightning. Aang is a very fit person who is also an airbender, making him at least an order of magnitude faster than Iroh who at this point is old, fat and out of shape. And there is no other character that is faster than Aang in the series, so this is perfectly consistent. We also know that Aang can run on water through sheer speed, while Naruto requires chakra controll to float on water.
Aang in his base form is at least relative to lightning but Naruto in ANY FORM before Shippuden ep. 329 is WAY slower than lightning. So Naruto could never speedblitz Aang.
Win conditions
CON gave a full list of Narutos abilities, and tries to compare stats. What he fails to do, the most crucial part, is analyse the interactions between Narutos offence and Aangs defence.
Summuning Gamabunta
The big toad is not something that Naruto can summon without Kuramas chakra. So summoning it comes at the expense of his potential 1-tail chakra cloak. Aang has riden large seamonsters before with no difficulty, he could just jump or fly on its head, blow away Naruto and Gamabunta would not be able to shake him off. And in the avatar state he easily ragdolls the great toad.
Shaddow clone jutsu
Aang has seismic sense that works on everything both underground and in the air. He cannot be surprised from any angle. The shaddow clones are weak to elemental aoe attacks.
Transformation jutsu
The battlefied doesn't lend itself well to mindgames. Everything that is not Naruto should remain motionless or sink in the water. Aang can instantly react to anything suspcious.
Substitution jutsu
Naruto generally doesn't use this very often in battle. But at best, this helps keep Naruto alive for longer. The technique is not an offensive one, and cannot end the battle.
Throwing weapons
Naruto will sense any and all weapons moving towards him and can easily dodge them. He has airbending to deflect them, earthbending to block it, water to grab them and throw them back.
Rasengan
The crucial weakness of this jutsu is that you have to get right next to your opponent to unleash it. So first you have to somehow close the distance with a bright and loud ball in your hand that is obviously a big attack. The instant he sees Naruto coming at him with the rasengan, he will think of numerous ways to stop him. He can throw a barrage of ice shards cutting up Naruto, or grab him with his octopus form, or send a large wave at him. The rasengan is not the chidori, once it hits something, it unleashes all its power. And that power is not even that impressive, nothing a large boulder can't block. We must also remeber his airbending. Aang is a guy who easily sends grown men flying backwards with his breath alone. Using the rasengan makes you completely open to counterattacks. Even if Naruto moved at the speed of ligh, Aang would be able to dodge the attack or change its trajectory, and then immidiately retalliate.
Walk on water and 90 degree cliffs
Naruto is probably going to utilize these abilites during the battle. If Naruto hides in the forrest, Aang can burn it down to force him out. When he walks on water, Aang can just drag him to the bottom of the sea and drown him. If he stands 90 degree angle on the cliffsides, he can bend the entire cliffside to collapse, sending Naruto into the water, where he will be drowned to death.
Durability and strength
Sure, Naruto has good durability and stamina because he is an Uzumaki Jinchuriki. But we have seem many times that he is still vulnerable, he frequently gets cut and knocked out. If he bleeds, we can kill it. Even Rock Lee, who is way more impressive physically than Naruto, can get his arms destroyed by an elemental attack weaker than most of what we see in ATLA. The Avatar also has many non-kinetic ways to end Naruto, like drowning, burning, asphyxiation and immobilization, all of which straight up ignore durability. As stated in R1, Aang has comparable durability and strength, in addition to infinite chakra and stamina, allowing him to spam his entire arsenal for hours on end, with endless possibilities to be creative and create new types of attack combos that can catch Naruto offguard. Unless you do the batshit insane mental gymnastics necesary to say that kid naruto is FTL, there is simply nothing he has in his toolkit that is going to allow him to get a hit in against the avatar, and so his durability does nothing but make him a moving punching bag.
With his superior battle IQ and experience, mastery of multiple battle styles, and 4 elements, Aang has a very clear and effective counter to every single jutsu that Naruto posesses.
Ways that Aang could end the fight in an instant:
- Slicing him to pieces with water
- Putting him in a water prison, which we know waterbenders can do, and which we know even experienced shibobi like Kakashi have no counter for
- Taking his breath away, which we know for certaint that he is capable off, since he is a master airbender, and we know that even people completely new to airbending can pull it off
But again, the bending system gives unlimited flexibility, so Aang has an actual infinite number of potential attacks that could end the fight.
Avatar state
Makes you stronger, more durable, faster, smarter, more experienced, it repeatedly and exponentially increases your power, speed and controll of all 4 bending styles, and all the subtypes. You do not need even need the increased physical stats when you have impenetrable elemental defence and can fly far above the battlefield and rain down hellfire on your helpless opponent.
Kurama mode
After becomming a perfect Jinchuriki in episode 329 of Shippuden, Naruto finally becomes as fast as lightning, or in other words, as fast as Aang in his base form. But we are talking about kid Naruto. CON himself admits that the Avatar state can plausibly defeat even the 3 tailed form of Kurama, and that you need 4 to be completely sure the avatar cant handle him. That is a very important concession, because it means that the first and second tails, which are way weakers than the 3rd tail, get absolutely curbstomped by the avatar state. While I must repeat that there is no reason to believe that he would even break a sweat against anything less than 5 tailed mode, it is nice to have a written confession from CON that AS is leagues stronger than the first and second tail.
Drawbacks
First off, its important to mention that there were grave downsides to being covered in Kurama's chakra cloak. First off, you lose your intelligence and ability to think strategically. Seconldy, it severely injures you the longer you use it, and the more tails that appear. If Naruto was unfortunate enough to manifest more than 2 tails like Jiraiya warned, Kurama would be able to take over, and he would be unable to exit the mode. In short, he would be stuck possesed by Kurama untill the fox escaped and killed him in the process. That means even if Naruto was actually way stronger than Aang in this mode, Aang would notice and fly away, which in this case would be a victory, since he survived but Naruto didn't. The very best case for CON is if Naruto manifests multiple tails, then manages to kill Aang before dying himself -- which would still only be a draw.
Reductio ad absurdum
CON has essentially argued that 12 year old Naruto gets as many tails as he needs for any given fight. But if that was true, he would never loose a fight unless he died. Obviously, Naruto did loose fights, more specifically, he lost an incredibly important fight against Sasuke that he could have won had he had access to 2 tails. At the excact same battlefield that we are using, Naruto and Sasuke fought. Naruto manifested the first tail, but still lost against Sasuke when he pulled out the second stage cursemark. So we have cannonical proof that at this point, one tail was Narutos limit.
Narutos lore accurate limit
This seal is intended to encourage tailed beasts to aid the jinchūriki they've been sealed within, as the more they provide chakra, the weaker the seal becomes, and thus the better their chance of freedom’’At this time in the stories, His seal is still fresh so Kurama can only output that much chakra for him to used the one tail cloak. [wiki]. The seal only became weaker later on.
As per CON's admission, Naruto would have needed multiple tails to be a match for the avatar state. But kid Naruto could never under any circustance been able to access more than 1 tail.
Narutos death is inevitable
Aang has numerous ways to kill Naruto instantly before he gets any chance to power up. But even if he barerly survives, which allows the transformation to begin, it is still extremely slow, and while it the chakra cloak slowly creeps up on him, Naruto is completely motionless and unaware of his surroundings, wide open for deadly strikes. Even if that fails, the avatar state could easily succeed in killing him very quickly. All the subending styles that have been invented by the time Roku lived, has been mastered by a previous avatar. This is Gazans lava shuriken, and it would slize right through 1-tailed Naruto like a knife through hot butter. Good luck regenerating your head back onto you neck. And this guy is not even an avatar, just a regular earthbender. One of the previous avatars bends the lava from two volcanoes. In the final battle with Ozai, Aang in the avatar state compresses water to less than 1/10th the volume. To give you an idea of how insane that is, the water pressure at the deepest point in the ocean only compresses water by 5%. Forget sand coffin, the Avatar is going to drag one-tailed Kurama underwater and squeeze him till he becomes a black hole.
Conclusion
Naruto has not even a single win condition, while Aang has numerous. One tailed Kurama mode is not nearly enough to fight the avatar state.
Con
#4
AGE
''End of series, Aang was still 12 years old''
Wrong. You have given no sources for that, but I'll give you some canon events from the show and you do the math.
- Aang was told he is the Avatar when he turned 12yo in the temple before the war started.
- For unknown period of time Aang continued living with the monks.
- Aang disappears and gets frozen in the storm (are you going to mention that a storm almost killed him btw)
- After being unfrozen he trains water bending 7 months, earth bending 5 months and fire bending 6 weeks (based on the chronological timeline)
Voters can check my sources which are already provided in Round 1 and make the math to find out how old was he before he met the fire lord. If you don't want to do it, here it is:
12yo Aang + sometime at the temple ? + 1 year of water and earth bending training + 1.5 months fire bending training = more than 13 years old Aang meeting Ozai.
Sadly, PRO cannot argue for an 12yo Aang that has learned all 4 elements let alone mastered them. Aang at this age also has no full control of the Avatar State so he cannot just turn it on in the beginning of the fight and kill Naruto before he uses Kuramas power.
VERSE DIFFICULTY
The reason the definitions of monk and ninja are relevant is because it shows the background of the character which basically determines their mindset going into battle.
Aang's life at this point is fun and games everyday, has proficient air bending but it's not battle tested like Naruto. Naruto at this age has been through some serious shit already. Multiple other higher level ninjas have tried to murder him. I'm not saying anything of this is a deciding factor but its part of the comparing process of the stats. Battle Mindset or Battle Tested can be something worth of consideration or something that can tip the scales if the fight is close. Aang is shown to struggle against ordinary people with bows and arrows
'' CON has not even attempted to respond to these crucial points. The avatar state stomps the early Naruto verse''
That was my opening statement, of course I couldn't fit an entire rebuttal in it. And this argument is as irrelevant as it is wrong. Key word is "early verse" and another key word is "assumption".
SPEED
Ok so we'll just ignore the literally canon example I just gave of Naruto reacting and moving in hyperspeed while fighting Haku and Sasuke. And what were Haku's feats based on the sources I have, not from imaginary script of what the character would do :
In the databook Hakus jutsu is stated to have the speed of light. He is literally bouncing off mirrors. His mirrors reflect his image allowing him to move at lightspeed.
That's why nobody could see Haku moving. Haku was able to intercept Kakashi's Raikiri while fighting Naruto and Sasuke in the same time. Kakashi is told to be so fast he's able to cut a lighting in half with his Raikiri. Sasuke's Sharingan also couldn't keep up. Naruto on the other hand was shown evading and reacting to Hakus reflections that came from all directions including behind him and on top of him. Not only just reacting to lighting fast objects but moving in lighting fast speeds is huge difference. Aang has not been shown to move that fast as Naruto in the Valley Fight. Sasuke literally saw him as a streak of red blur and had to evolve his sharingan to keep up. The argument you tried to make for Aang being lightspeed is bad. Iroh is not lightspeed just because he practiced for years to anticipate and control one lighting strike. Iroh is shown getting hit with simple slower attacks in an actual battle. So has Aang, he has been hit left and right by other attacks that are not fast at all, like in his fights with some earth benders.
And even if Naruto is still not yet as fast as the Raikage who is almost at the speed of light what does that matter? Both are dealing with speeds close to light. Raikage could be 90%, Naruto 70%, it doesnt matter. Narutos universe is on a different scale. Most of the ninjas move at lighting fast speeds. You can see random ANBUs and chunins report to their supervisors and then literally flashing away like a streaks, disappearing immediately. We can assert safely that the speed levels in Narutos verse are way different than Avatar's. Naruto achieves full lighting speed later yes, but overall his universe already moves at speeds comparable to light speed. Even 20% lightspeed is something Aang has never done. His elements and all the experience of martial arts masters wont give him Narutos speed and durability. He can throw a lot of fancy attacks at Naruto but the second Naruto gets close is over.
Naruto's skills
PRO heavily underestimates Narutos ability to surprise his opponent with simple jutsus and tactics. Naruto has already done that and I have said that I wont be engaging in making a script of shoulda, woulda, coulda arguments. Naruto is shown to transform a clone of his as a shuriken and surprise his enemy from the back.
As the shuriken flies behind them, it transform back to fully equipped clone of Naruto within Aangs close range. I'm stating what both characters are seen to do in their shows. Voters can compare. I wont tell you what a fictional character would "think of doing" in a fictional situation that is based on who writes the script.
PRO also still underestimates every stat and ability Naruto has. I cannot say it enough that the sheer speed and power scales are different. Naruto is seen doing stuff that would be considered powerful air bending by just punching the air. That's raw strength. And this is how he react to direct fire hit.
If voters think brainless big sea creatures are the same as a huge talking ninja frog capable of using tactics, logic, swords as big as buildings, jutsus and it's enormous size, power, speed etc. then ok. I could've been move open to responding to each one of PRO's imaginations of how the events would go but since the debate is only 10000 characters I'll stick to facts about their stats.
At this point I cannot address all of PRO's hypothetical turn of events since I will be biased and over the limit for characters. I will move forward with short summaries.
- Avatar State gives Aang the skills and expirience of previous Avatars (no superhuman feats measurable to the scale of Narutos universe). Those Avatars have no experience with Narutoverse ninjas, their jutsus, and their physical advantages (speed in Narutos verse is different level)
- Aang has been shot and killed by Azula. In The Avatar State..... Naruto has a Spirit Demon living in him giving him ultra speed, regeneration, power, DURABILITY and all kinds of boosts. All of that in a universe on a already different powerscale. Naruto has already been hit with most of the attacks any Avatar has and tanked them all. Huge rocks have been throw at him, fireballs, water jutsus etc. Aang has not shown to have any deadly super fast and super strong attack that can stop Naruto. PRO did come up with a lot of them using his imagination but not actual events from the show.
- PRO is spewing wild claims as " burning straight up ignores durability" .. Naruto has been hit with Fire Jutsu with and without Kuramas mode and it never did any real damage to him. That just shows that elemental attacks of this sort like throwing earth, water and fire at Naruto wont do much.
- A lot of other wild claims about Rock Lee and Sasuke and "infinite possibilities" are presented by PRO with no back up. Just for voters information Naruto never tried to kill Sasuke while fighting him. As PRO said , he could've. Rock Lee being more impressive is subjective and not verified by any way from PRO.
- Slicing Naruto with water is not very likely since a lot of other similar attacks have not succeeded. Aangs element attacks are too slow, Naruto's durability and speed stats based on his Verse are too high.
- Still waiting to see where in the Avatar's show PRO saw anyone creating a water prison like Zabuza.
- Aang taking someone's breath is a feat he is never seen using. (or in another words its from PRO's hypothetical script)
- What you said about Naruto's seal is not canon. First part is close to the truth but the second is from unreliable source. What the seal do is mostly correct but second part about it being "fresh" and not letting Kurama lend Naruto more power is a theory from a fan in Quora. I still state that nothing IN THE SHOW states that Naruto can't develop more than 1 tail. Its just natural that they are going to introduce more tails with more episode since after all its a tv show. Its supposed to be presented gradually for the viewers as its also not needed dealing with first part villains.
CONCLUSIONS AFTER 2nd ROUND EXAMINATIONS:
- PRO still has Basic Form Aang skillset wrong based on his actual age and under further examination I would say that Naruto basic form is very likely to kill Aang in his basic form. Aang is seen dying and almost dying multiple times from things that Naruto tanks. Durability levels are just so much different.
- Versatility of Basic Form Naruto and Aang is close but still goes to Naruto. 12yo Aang has some tricks with air and water not much else. Naruto has wider range of options to choose from.
- Kurama mode vs Avatar state. Flying wont help because of Naruto's huge and long Kurama chakra arms. The Avatar is not shown to have the raw power, speed and durability of the characters in Narutos verse or to regenerate . Its just different power tier Universe. Stories about what Aang can maybe think of doing sound cool but at the end elemental attacks wont help you much when you are regular human compared to a someone moving in hyperspeeds, being able to heal fast, endure tons of physical damage and use multiple kinds of strategies, power buffs and attacks. I admitted Aang definitely loses to anything above 3 tails. That was overkill but that doesn't mean he wins against 1. I still have him losing to 1 tail Naruto.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Thank you, baggins.
Aangs age and abilities
Don't think that CON has the objectively correct timeline. His source doesn't have hard evidence or official statements, just speculation and guesswork. Most sources, including mine, agree that Aang turned 13 until after the fight with Sozin. "All three seasons of the animated series essentially take place in the course of one calendar year." [ew].
Mastery
Even in CON's timeline, Aang learned and mastered air, water and earth, and fought all the important battles from the show, before turning 13. The only time Aang uses firebending against Ozai is to block his firebending and redirect lightning, neither of which he would need to do against Naruto. In his avatar state, Aang can still firebend perfectly.
Avatar state
Even in CON's timeline, Aang was still 12 at the invasion of Ba Sing Se, which is the point at which he unlocked perfect control of the avatar state. Only the injury on his back that blocked his chakra point prevented him from using it at any point in s3. But the description specifically heals both combatants, so Aang has AS unlocked from the start of the fight.
Aang speed
Iroh is undeniably relative to natural lightning. He perceives the lightning and stretches out both hands to meet it -- Iroh is not statued, which he should have done if he had been way slower. Lightning redirection as it is canonically explain would be literally impossible if you could not react and move relative lightning speed, because you have to consciously direct it through his body and around your heart, while moving your arm to where you want to send it. Natural lightning is canonically the same as lightning you produce, just as firebending is the same as normal flames, so we can use that to scale also.
- Aang jumps as fast as lightning, and turns around, sees lightning 1 meter in front of him, and then moves his hands forwards to catch it.
- Zuko jumps towards lightning, and he runs at least 30% as fast as the lightning moves -- Katara is in shock but perceives in slow-motion both Zuko and the lightning.
- Katara is later able to dodge and block lightning while its moving.
- Aang dodges lightning multiple times after it was already fired at him.
In this universe, anyone with normal combat speed are at least relative to lightning speed. That also means all bending attacks move at relativistic speeds as well. Azulas blue flames, and Ozais red ones, we can clearly see they move noticeable slower than their lightning, but still fast enough to overwhelm or suprise someone. You don't scale down the Naruto universe down to the speed of real life Kunai, so you can't with intelectual honesty scale the Avatar universe down to real life arrow speed either. The archers that gave Aang some trouble, they were an entire squad of the elite of the elite, who can hit a fly from miles away and pinn it to a tree without killing it. They are obviously shooting arrows at or above the normal combat speed of the verse, which the show consistently proves is relative to lightning.
Naruto speed
The example of dodging Hakus attack is very bad. We never get confirmation that he is still lightspeed when he goes out of the mirrors to attack directly, and deathbattle wiki seems to disagree that this is a lightspeed feat. Naruto has 220 episodes. A single unverified example of dodging lightspeed attacks with one tail, which he never replicates, and which contradicts the speed scaling of the entire verse, is not good argument. The way that the series portrays speed and the The sharingan upgrade are also not good arguments. Ninjas become blurs difficult to track in the eyes of other ninjas even though they move many orders of magnitude slower than light. But ATLA characters perceive lightning and react to it and move relative to it, so Naruto characters would not appear like a blur to Aang or be much faster than him.
Correct scaling
Being charitable, KCM1 Naruto is 100% the speed of light. So to go from 1-tailed mode to KCM1 mode entails going beast mode v2, get 8 new tails, and becomming a perfect Jinchuriki.
1-tailed Naruto is 10 ungodly speed boosts away from being lightspeed.
Worse for CON's case, the power boosts are exponential, not linear. 8 tails strongest attack is not 8 times stronger than one-tailed rasengan, but nuclear bomb level. For the sake of steelmaning his case, I will use the lowest possible number 2. With 9 tails he is at least 2^8 times faster, stronger and more durable than with just 1, and KCM1 raises that by a factor of ten because that upgrade is much bigger. So KCM1 has at minimum 2560 times better stats than the first tail. That means the first tail boosts Naruto not to 70% but at most 0.04% of lightspeed. This is why Narutos "hyperspeed" against Sasuke is not even close to being relativistic.
Naruto's Speed is scaled at subsonic due to scaling above characters with FTE feats such as Kiba and Neji. As well, he is comparable to Haku. [deathbattle wiki].
Even reaching just 0.04% of lightspeed would be a goodly boost for Naruto. But would still be far slower than Aang.
Kurama mode
CON did not deny having conceeded that Naruto needs at least 4 tails to be completely sure of victory and Aang still has a chance against 3. Defeating the one tail exponentially easier.
But can he even survive long enoug:
CON keeps claiming that Naruto has all of these durability feats but he has never shown them:
- But the battle against Haku that CON refers to lliterally has Naruto pierced and almost killed by just a few small needles.
- Narutos entire hand, bone and everything, got pierced by a normal Kunai. So waterslices that cuts through giant boulders will cut him as well.
- Water prison is literally the most basic waterbending technique which Katara does to a fish in the very first episode with no training and later in combat.
- Naruto standing on water would be a death sentence since he will be dragged down and drowned, he has no way to to counter that.
- He can drag Naruto into the ground and crush/suffocate him or kill him with spikes from the ground he stands on.
To activate Kurama mode Naruto must first take severe damage and still be alive. The most like outcome of this battle is simply than he dies before ever activiating Kurama power.
1-tail limit:
That the seal is the bottleneck for Naruto receiving Kurama's chakra, that is not opinion, it is cannon. "The seal itself would naturally weaken over time. Jiraiya uses the key to weaken the seal, giving Naruto greater access to the Nine-Tails' chakra". [narutopedia]. As soon as Jiraiya opens the seal, Naruto grows 4 tails, gets posessed by Kurama and attacks his teacher. Before that point, he could never have grown more than 1 tail. To say that he could have goten more tails as needed in a fight as a twelve year old, is obviously wrong since we literally see that Naruto loses against Sasuke and does not get more tails.
1-tailed Kurama mode is not invincible
As stated before, Naruto, even with his supposedly "ungodly boost" lost to a single chidori attack from Sasuke that pierced his shoulder. Naruto did not heal from the injury, instead, his chakra cloak dissapeared and he lost consciousness. That shows even the strongest form that he has access to has clear limitations to how much it can tank and heal.
Avatar state can:
- Use water cutting thousands times stronger that the one Hama used to slize up boulders.
- Crush him with water pressure hundred times greater than the bottom of the sea.
- Slize him up with lava shuriken, or cover him in lava and endless flames.
- Just because Naruto can tank 2 seconds of weak fire-style from Sasuke or surving impact with some undefined rock CON mentioned, the AS is on another level.
- The firestyle of Madara Uchiha is definitiely killing kid Naruto even with tails. The firebending of Ozai, which is still weaker than AS firebending, is shown just as destructive.
Kid Naruto has no city-level durability feat to counter the city-level attacks that the avatar state can dish out -- and his healing factor is extremely limited with only the one-tail.
Avatar state:
Anything that Aang did in the fight against Ozai with the avatar state, he can do against Naruto. Aang also did not try to kill Ozai, and he was massively holding back trying not to kill him.
- Aangs elemental ball is much faster than Ozai, the guy whose firebending makes him a literal rocket
- He can easily dodge any attacks Naruto throws at him, including the chakra arms
- The higher he is, the more difficult to reach him, and the more time to move out of the way
- But the elemental ball crashes through multiple enormous pillars of solid stone, in quick succession, without loosing speed or taking any visible damage.
- There is literally no chance that Narutos chakra arms will be able to harm him even if he stands still, because they cannot even penetrate the elemental barrier.
- Aang has compressed an entire lake, wall of flames and a small mountain to small circles of incredibly density. He forms thse to shields and weapons as needed.
- He creates 5 enormous fireballs that act as homing misiles, each of which are much bigger and faster than Narutos chakra arms.
- He also destroys a large boulder with a very casual gust of wind, and turns each of his compressed stones into an entire volley of mortar rounds.
- He can use his water arms from an unbelievable distance, so when he is in range of chakra arms, Naruto is in range of being sliced in two.
Pain curbstomped the sixth tail. His rock defence blocked its strongest attacks, and he was able to even capture the beast by lifting the ground into the air and trapping it in a big sphere. Here we are putting the first tail, only 1/32 as powerfull, up against the avatar state who has power and presicion rivalling Pain. Aang casually lifts cities. This is not a fair fight.
Summary
Naruto has literally no way to win this fight. Aangs abilities are clear counters to everything he has in his arsenal. He has multiple ways to maintain distance, keep track of shaddow clones, block, dodge and deflect any thrown attack, and have superior hand-to-hand combat skills from learning multiple martials arts amped with flexible bending. Aang has comparable durability in his base form and way superior speed. Aangs favorite strategy is to drag out fights, dodging attacks, avoiding taking unnecesary risks and tiring out the opponent. Running at Aang with a rasengan is never going to work. Even with clever diversion Aang has abilities to keep track of everything both over and under ground, and the AoE attacks to clear any number of shaddowclones and projectiles.
Kurama power is almost impossible for kid Naruto to activate without plot armor, since it requires him to be close to death without actually dying. The avatar state, which can be activated whenever, can never be touched, but has the power, speed and skill to kill one tailed Naruto a million different ways. Despite regenerating small wounds, the Kurama cloak will be destroying his own body and running out of chakra the longer he uses it. Even if we ignore that Aang has countless ways to end the fight, he would still dodge, deflect and block every attack from Kurama and stay out of range untill the chakra cloak, which is canonically a double edged sword, harms Naruto til he loses consciousness or runs out of gas.
The only way CON can win is if voters grant Naruto his single hyperbolic, unverified and inconsistent lightspeed feat, but reject the very clear and consistent lightning feats Aang has.
That is obviously not reasonable.
Conclusion
With proper scaling, Naruto has no realistic win conditions, while Aang has multiple. 12 year old Aang would almost certainly win a fight with 12-year old Naruto.
Vote PRO.
Con
#6
AGE
- My statements about Aang's age are untouchable at this point. Everything I have said is logically valid, mathematically valid, and sources are from canon events from the episodes, not random fan websites with articles from fans.
2. After unknown period he dissapears
3. By your own admission Aang took at least one calendar year to train
4. Then he fought Ozai
So lets do the math again, even simpler this time, forgetting the unknown period of time.
We have 12+1=13. And by Aangs own admission, at the end of the show, he never mastered fire bending (didn't have time and had problems with it).
I admitted that Aang would still know air, water and some earth bending. I don't know if he mastered anything but air.
- Either way, no where in the description of the battle there was anything specific that said Aang would start in the Avatar state so no one show follow PRO's hypothetical fighting script of what he thinks the characters would do. The facts are that Aang in his normal state, at that age does not have mastery of all 4 elements.
SPEED
- PRO's ways to somehow scientifically calculate the actual real life speed of Naruto and each tail to show that it is not an actual light speed is as big of an arguments as my Monk vs Ninja one. Its not real life and its relative. In some cases I use "lighting fast speeds" metaphorically just as a way to show how big is the difference in the levels of Naruto verse and Avatar verse characters, other times I'm talking about actual light speed. Fact is that Avatar cant move in lighting speed either way.
- I think voters can easily disregard PRO's claim that Iroh is a light speed moving character based on him being hit by lighting and redirecting it. Iroh moved his hands up because he is in the middle of a ocean, in a storm, expecting a lighting, while also being one of the most powerful fire benders in the series. The best fire benders can control lighting element. You think all of those don't have more to do with him being able to catch the lighting? PRO is trying to say Iroh can move at light speeds based on that only, even tho we have never even seen ANYONE in the show move in such speeds.
- PRO gives examples of scenes in the show done in slow motion as evidence that someone perceives stuff in slow motion.
- Fallacy : "Zuko is also light speed because he jumped infront of a lighting." People jump infront of bullets, that doesn't mean people can move as fast as bullets. You can jump towards something without seeing it, anticipating where it would be.
- If a developed Sharingan is having trouble keeping up with 1 tail Naruto, the Avatar would be overwhelmed by pure speed.
"In this universe, anyone with normal combat speed are at least relative to lightning speed."
- Obviously false (also PRO just took my argument and made it his). Anyone who watched the two shows knows the difference in power scales. There's a point in the show where Naruto surpasses Minato's speed (who literally teleports ). So Naruto goes beyond light speed to surpass literal transportation. I've already shown Naruto's verse is higher in every possible stat.
- One case of Iroh being able to redirect a lighting doesn't grant you a whole universe being scaled to a light speed. Naruto's show on the other hand has multiple examples from multiple characters (not even important or powerful ones) that vanish like streaks.
- PRO argues that Aang sees at lighting fast speeds BUT HAD TROUBLE with "trained" regular people with no super powers that shot REGULAR ARROWS with regular bows, because the arrows are super fast in that universe (relative to lighting?) LOL
- PRO claim's Naruto evading Haku is not good example because it happened just once, after his one example of Iroh doing something and then he concludes Aang is light speed. And lets say lightspeed of Haku is not confirmed. He just moves as fast as reflections move between mirrors , wonder how fast is that? AND I can give more examples of Naruto moving in extra ordinary speeds. Faster than anything shown in the Avatar. Doesn't matter how we're going to label the power scales (light speed/sound speed) Naruto verse is higher than Avatar. What is the most destructive battle Aang EVER had? With Ozai. And how much was the damage done? Not too much damage done to anything bigger than a big rock. Naruto verse deals with gods, splitting moons in half, speeds faster than light, Gamabunda alone (which kid Naruto can summon) has City Level attack and defense.
Also quick note, Naruto was not even in one tail mode when he fought Haku. That was his feral state when he is just angry. No chakra cloak needed.
KURAMA MODE
- Now, again... I have not said "Aang wins definitely against anything under 4 tails". Let me correct you again. The AVATAR (the most powerful character in the show) has a chance with 1 tail 12yo Naruto (think about verse power scales again ). Maybe with 2-3 tails also (high diff and very unlikely). Any additional tail after that is an overkill. Just because the Avatar has a chance doesn't mean he wins though.
DURABILITY
- I think last round is the worst for PRO. Every durability feat I have mentioned is from the show. Naruto was done with Haku literally 1 min after he got angry. All of the needles (half way inside him already) bounced off from him and he healed completely. Videos are provided in my arguments. Sasuke in the battle in the valley rips a hole through his chest, Naruto bleeds out (maybe dies) starts to sink and Kurama wakes him up. Even if Aang injures him lethally straight from the beginning Kurama is still there. And its not fair for the sake of the debate that PRO tries to discredit Kurama and create some type of hypothetical scenario all the time when Naruto doesn't even get to fight basically and he is dead immediately from the get go.
"Narutos entire hand, bone and everything, got pierced by a normal Kunai"
- Kunai in the Naruto verse, held by Naruto verse ninja who concentrate chakra in his hand and doesn't even need the Kunai to cut boulders...That isn't showing anything. All of the claims about Naruto's durability are still valid (pls dont say I haven't showed you anything). Naruto's durability and ability to tank huge amount of physical damage is inedible.
- Thank you for the water prison source, I'll give you that finally. Aang can do water prisons which might hold Naruto for a while until he starts dying (if he cant escape another way) and then Kurama comes. Again all this now only adds a feat in Aangs resume (not very significant). Writing a specific fighting script/plot where you say what one of the fictional character will do and what happens to the other is called "imagination" and not it's valid to win a debate.
- PRO randomly creates imaginary story lines and plots where his character wins and I'm supposed to waste my word limit by addressing everything or I need to start using my imagination and just come up with 100 random plots for PRO to debunk. It's easy to create a plot and just say well this is what happens " Naruto just avoids everything since he is much faster and even when he doesn't he tanks it and eventually gets to Aang and kills him (cant be disproven bc Aang literally dies in my scenario due to the low durability of his body and being slower which is all fact)"
"Crush him with water pressure hundred times greater than the bottom of the sea."
Wow, doesn't that sound impressive. All we have to do is imagine a scenario where Naruto sleeps and waits for Aang to gather an ocean to sink him in instantaneously. lol ? And we have to imagine the sources for that claim also.
"Slize him up with lava shuriken, or cover him in lava and endless flames."
Another nice scenario.. Lets just assume what a fictional character does and doesn't in this one too. What PRO is doing (maybe not intentionally) is trying to create a narrative. Instead of only examining and comparing each character feats he paints the picture (creates a scenario) and says what WILL HAPPEN in his story. Everyone can make stories that can't be verified or tested.
"Just because Naruto can tank 2 seconds of weak fire-style from Sasuke or surving impact with some undefined rock CON mentioned, the AS is on another level."
Uchiha's fire style jutsus are not shown to be any weaker than any fire bending in the Avatar. Voters hopefully can see PRO is just trying to downplay the evidence. Naruto gets smashed through rocks every fight, identifying a rock is not necessary.
I really have no more characters left to address each one of PRO's CLAIMS, ASSERTIONS, AND HYPOTHETICAL IMAGINARY SCENARIOS
- Aang's most powerful attack that PRO showed looks powerful against Avatar characters. Also the Avatar is a mere human. He looks powerful controlling large rocks and making large fireballs but at the end of the day, take his attacks away, his physical characteristics don't change. The speed he has comes from the air bending, not from his own body speed. The defense he has comes from elements, if Naruto hits his body Aang is a dead man. Kid Naruto's raw body power and strength made him able to severely damage partly transformed demon Gaara with just a plain kick (Gaara is a jinchuriki and had a defense and durability times over Aang's).
- Pain is a character from Naruto verse. His fight with Naruto doesn't help Aang with anything.
- PRO focused all debate on Naruto with 1 tail. He tried to argue that Naruto can't access multiple tails but abandoned that argument after my rebuttal. It was not shown that in the show and more importantly it was not established by PRO here that Naruto definitely cant access more than 1 tail so EVEN IF Aang beats 1,2,4,7 tailed Naruto, eventually Aang loses. The difference in this debate between PRO and CON is that CON judged by how Naruto is shown in the show and PRO judges by what HE THINK AANG WOULD DO.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
My previous vote and addendums may be found in the comment section at and around:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/5318/comments/59620
---
Due to having not covered much of durability, adding that in...
"since he is an Uzumaki and Jinchuriki"
Pretty sure I commended on this already... A statement like this doesn't mean anything to a lay person, and voters are supposed to act like they are lay persons.
I don't much care for ultimate powers (if either loses they have a power which takes over and kills the other). Those things being employed as pro points out (well one sided points out), is a draw at best (and at least for Naruto it might also kill him if he uses it). Was of course wise to point out that Kurama is apparently not mastered until after episode 300; much like how con tried to argue Aang couldn't use fire (avatar state I'm unclear on).
"'burning straight up ignores durability'"
This is a pet peeve of mine, while the words are close, that's not a real direct quote. Misquoting to that degree pulls attention to the actual wrote: "The Avatar also has many non-kinetic ways to end Naruto, like drowning, burning, asphyxiation and immobilization, all of which straight up ignore durability"
Not to mention, trying so hard to dismiss his fire powers, implicitly says Naruto is weak against them. Likewise for trying to shift focus off of those other non-kinetic attacks.
Needles, Kunais, and I don't know what else are able to harm Naruto as normal (Kunai was defended because the guy holding it was exceptional; still, normal iron or whatever it's made of). This really goes back to my expectations that both are physically human except when questionable writing takes over.
Speaking of kunais... Naruto is a ninja, for whom throwing weapons are a key thing... Yet it's pro who lists Naruto's skills there. Those are a ninjas best ways to counter Aang maintaining distance with his wind powers (while such also reduces ranged weapon effectiveness, I'm sure there's plenty of examples of Naruto aiming well during storms). Naruto at some point on the show has super long arms (not certain when he gains that power). Chakra arms are Naruto's one ranged attack, and they aren't defended as being good when lines of reasoning are made to suggest their ineffectiveness.
---
Plus again, it wasn't clear to me what Naturo's powers are within this debate. Something about he collects fox tails, and the fox tails are sometimes toads, and that lets turn himself into any inanimate objects and him make 1000 clones of himself (seriously?)... Need I go on? Whereas Aang can manipulate X, Y, and Z (elements), and those counter G, H, and I from Naruto. During any debate, if the other side does better representing your side, it's going to be an uphill battle.
---
So in conclusion, I'm left with the impression that Naruto doesn't have the winning combination to defeat Aang, especially with the range problem. Whereas Aang stands a decent chance against Naruto, especially with the power supply advantage. This isn't a conclusive Aang will win 10 out of 10 fights; more like two thirds or three fifths of the time when discounting draws (of which there'd be plenty).
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
I believe that Benjamin *should have* won this but failed to address the core of the issue: age. He left numerous arguments by baggins about age on the table and conceded a full 70 episodes of aging without a word. On the other hand, baggins made this a big part of his argument and, although the claims are dubious, they are unanswered by PRO and thus must be considered as real according to PRO.
Based on age, Aang has received little to no training and would be easily brought into avatar mode, which, as stated in CON’s argument, is not as powerful as it seems on the surface. On the other hand, Naruto has significantly progressed and the power of the full nine tails is insane in comparison. As noted by CON, the power levels majorly differ between the series and it is clear that in Naruto there are more powerful characters. As Naruto is the main character, he is one of the most powerful characters in the series as well. His true power is more innate (the nine tails) whereas Aang needs to train hard to learn many different bending types and power up.
If the timeline works according to what was argued, Aang is simply not well-trained enough and underpowered while Naruto has undergone serious training and still has more innate power. Furthermore, Naruto is so durable that Aang's chances are minimal. Therefore, I believe that CON wins in arguments.
Sources are tied because although there were some minor imbalances it is not enough to give the point to either side. Conduct and legibility were balanced as well.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pPhrTTUvy7qNY3sYNsPDVlu3g-B-f2yjHFaUyhS0F8g/edit?usp=sharing
Good points made by both sides, though I think there should have been more of a shared set of knowledge about these two fighters up front. Would've made this more focused and, potentially, introduced more opportunities to make the fight a bit more even. Tl;dr: Aang just has a bigger set of tools at his disposal and it's unlikely that Naruto's strength and durability would be enough to secure him the win.
Im just not sure that Pain=12yo Aang. That could be a separate debate
1.okay lets see, I have never argued for perfect jinchuriki powers that obviously come at the end of the war (sorry i know you dont know what war im talking about). I have argued for powers that kurama can give naruto at any time and powers that have been seen in the og show. I have argued for speed, durability, healing factors, chakra hands and power (all shown in the debate with sources and with naruto being 1 tail) .I never brought up perfect jinchuriki, only jinchuriki. My point about fire and the age was that Aang in his base mode did not master fire yet so he cannot use it in the beginning to just burn Naruto as PRO mentioned. Then after that I acknowledged that in AS Aang can use firebending but I provided sources to why I think Naruto will tank most of the fire attacks.
2.”his buddy shows up?” His buddy never left. Thats strawman but unfortunately Kurama is a part of Naruto and his powers are too so thats not a separate individual fighting Aang. Its still Naruto boosted by his character powers. And yes if Naruto dies and Kurama revives him DURING (not later) the fight is not over. Avatar State cannot revive Aang if he dies (idk where you got that from either, Aang literally died in AS and AS did not save him). If after the battle Naruto dies from battle damage that does not mean he did not win the battle. If i go in the ring to fight anybody and win but later on die from brain damage I still won the boxing match. Also please dont put in your definition of victory that PRO never used. How many times someone dies is irrelevant if he keeps coming back until he wins. Im not saying Naruto will keep coming back forever Im just commenting on your weird definition of victory.
3.lol no again,,,… what kind of biases broo I said general knowledge FOR BOTH shows… naruto being able to create hundreds of clones is shown in the freaking first or second episode of the og naruto… like sorry I assumed the people voting on an aang vs naruto debate will have at least some basic information about who naruto and aang are.. Good thing you have watched Avatar at least because you would have said something stupid about Aang too like: “oh idk what aang can do … some kind of circus acrobat that bends over and has magic water and air idk (seriously???)”
Have you seen the Pain vs Naruto fight? At the end, Pain encases himself in a small earth box and traps the 6-tailed Naruto in a rock sphere, which Naruto needed 8 tails to break out of. I am fairly certain that Aang in the avatar state could do something similar. The first Avatar, Wang, was able to confine Vatuu, a powerfull evil spirit comparable to multi-tailed beasts, in a ring of air, fire, water and earth.
> “lol not even remotely close to what was argued about Kurama and the fire bending”
Let’s see, Kurama mode … perfect Jinchurik … episode 329.
And what do you think your arguments on age and when Aang learned abilities was supposed to argue if not him not learning Fire until sometime at age 13? You had a whole list of months…
> AFTER he kills Aang and already has won the battle
So after losing, his buddy might show up and kill the person who defeated him, and then kill him too… that’s not his victory, that’s him losing twice (and the other guy losing once, but both are dead so I’ll call it a draw). The other guy has something similar (pretty sure it doesn’t kill him, but still not his victory).
A debate could be held on who has better friends who will come take over if they lose; for me at least it didn’t override the comparison of the two actual fighters in question.
> “ LOL WHAAT…. have you not ever watched the show lol”
Ahh, found the heart of the matter. You seem to believe you’d have a winning argument if I was biased in favor of Naruto, and that I should have such bias… I’m more familiar with Avatar, which slants things a little against it. Peaceful monk kid vs training to murder people for money kid, need I even say my default?
“A statement like this doesn't mean anything to a lay person, and voters are supposed to act like they are lay persons.”
-lol
“I don't much care for ultimate powers”
-lol
“if either loses they have a power which takes over and kills the other”
-lol no Aang doesn’t have that
“and at least for Naruto it might also kill him if he uses it”
-yea lol he might die sure, AFTER he kills Aang and already has won the battle
“Was of course wise to point out that Kurama is apparently not mastered until after episode 300; much like how con tried to argue Aang couldn't use fire (avatar state I'm unclear on).”
-lol not even remotely close to what was argued about Kurama and the fire bending
“Not to mention, trying so hard to dismiss his fire powers, implicitly says Naruto is weak against them”
-lol just watch the sources pls
“. Likewise for trying to shift focus off of those other non-kinetic attacks.”
-lol this is me not responding to “Aang can just drown him with water style”.
-the durability analysis was botched again and everything about Naruto is dismissed because a Kunai harmed him …
“Yet it's pro who lists Naruto's skills there”
-yes , thanks pro for mentioning that naruto can throw knives idk why i didn’t think to include that
“Those are a ninjas best ways to counter Aang maintaining distance with his wind powers”
-lol no again, I would assume the chakra hands are much better than kunai. Ht obviously they are much underestimated and not proven to be effective
“Something about he collects fox tails”
- lol what
“, and the fox tails are sometimes toads, and that lets turn himself into any inanimate objects and him make 1000 clones of himself (seriously?)... Need I go on”
LOL WHAAT…. have you not ever watched the show lol
“Whereas Aang can manipulate X, Y, and Z (elements), and those counter G, H, and I from Naruto.”
-yea that makes sense, so what are the XYZGH
2 hours left, and your vote will determine the outcome.
“That would be the script you were just talking about. It's not about one lone skill alone to win a fight. Fights are dynamic things, which inevitably end up utilizing more than one skill, and unexpected things happen.”
Yes, all Im saying is that scripts should not be a significant part of your decision imo but since they are Im asking you to provide the script that convinced you that Aangs skills would win this fight for him. About everything else I think we are saying the same thing.
Figuratively, you're Naruto's spokesperson for the upcoming fight.
The other debater is the other guy's spokesperson.
You're each trying to get people to place their bets on your side.
"You can say Aang skills will dominate Naruto which is technically creating a script in which you claim you know the outcome of a fictional character’s battle."
It's not a script, it's an impression given to me by the comparative arguments.
"Which skill exactly wins it for you?"
That would be the script you were just talking about. It's not about one lone skill alone to win a fight. Fights are dynamic things, which inevitably end up utilizing more than one skill, and unexpected things happen.
An old friend of mine had his rifle jam at the worst time, allowing an insurgent to close the distance. The fight ended up not being decided by shooting skills, even while on paper my friend should have won for being so much better at shooting...
To explain gumption just look to the previous paragraph. The tides shifted against my friend, and he had to deep clean his rifle afterwards.
Fair enough, I would only add that while I agree both have plot armor my argument for durability does not rely on that since I have mentioned healing abilities that Naruto have because of Kurama and the general superior physical endurance in that Universe. Naruto is not the only one that just smashes through rocks when he is thrown at them for example meaning thats not just plot armor. Fights in general are more intense and characters from that verse are able to take and inflict more damage solely with their bodies. Thats in the debate as well.
I'm reminded of a debate I had several years ago, about who would win between Flash and Green Arrow. We're talking extraordinary super powers against some weirdo with a bow and arrow (pun intended). The points basically impaled Flash, over and over again.
Around the same time, someone successfully argued that Batman would defeat Darkseid.
It doesn't so much matter who /should/ win, what's more important is how well each is argued.
That said, I still have to give a proper review to durability as that might change the outcome if it was well argued (to be clear: I dismissed both sides due to plot armor, not just one)
Plot armor is real yes but it was never argued by PRO, and just because you find it maybe ridiculous that we discuss it, its very important. The simplest way to judge durability is simply looking at the healing factor of Naruto. Even if you don’t recognize anything else from the show.
Like the brutal damage Naruto has been shown to take with his bare body without shielding himself with elements or jutsus.
Btw after I said that Naruto has vasts amount of chakra reserves PRO agreed. I have no idea why this chakra argument of PRO is taken so seriously when in reality is nothing problematic. Naruto was never shown in the show losing a fight due to chakra insufficiency. PRO also never gave such examples. Saying something takes chakra is obvious. If voters dont know what a jinchuriki and uzimaki is idk if they are fit to vote on this debate. Just like voters researched PROs sources on their own, they could google those two words if they really dont know what they are. PRO obviously knew them and dropped that chakra argument. Maybe also because it wasn’t leading anywhere since I also mentioned that when Naruto dies or is out of Chakra, Kurama can intervene.
Firstly I want to mention that everything I will say here has been said in some form in the debate and if I go into heavier detail about certain things thats only because PRO has not challenged me on those topics and has not continued his line of questioning after my rebuttals.So my details are strictly for clarification purposes for the voter and not extra arguments. I will definitely go into heavier detail since multiple voters are including things PRO never came up with in the debate.
Secondly and more important to me is the method a voter will judge this debate and what do they value more. If at the end you value PROs method of reasoning more Im willing to accept the results. This is why I have no problem with whiteflame’s vote since he explained to me how he values tactics and mentioning of scenarios a lot and I didn’t do that (bc i think they are biased).
My method of deciding who is going to win is much simpler and in the same time way more complex. Talking about skills and how they would interact with each other is okay and can be somewhat important but it’s highly subjective and biased. Creating fake scenarios where we say “Aang will do this and then Naruto this and then Aang that” is completely unverifiable. We can use our imagination to create fake scenarios and we can have a fun conversation doing so, which will entertain the voters more, sure but imo theres a better way to judge this. Generally accepted categories to compare characters in fights are : strength, speed, physical and magical powers, durability, special abilities etc… Now I acknowledge that in every fictional show/anime/movie there’s contradictions and theres no perfect logic in them. Yes sometimes characters look extremely powerful in some fights and in other fights their abilities “seemingly” do not translate. That does not mean we can disregard their accomplishments during their powerful moments just because they are inconsistent and have weak moments . We can objectively analyze episodes and determine the capabilities of those characters no matter how hyperbolic they might seem sometimes. That is to be expected from fictional shows. So if we can objectively verify some statements about those main categories we can compare what we know and not compare what we don’t know. The only time fake scenarios and fighting scrips can be taken into account is if they have some kind of backed up claims for both characters. For example if we have proof that Aang can use fireballs and we have video proof how Naruto tanks fireballs thats one verified very specific situation that we can have an idea for what will potentially happen. All kind of other scenarios are almost useless and use no purpose but entertaining the voters and speculating. No way to know how their abilities will interact, no way to know what they would think of doing or anything like that. Morality being outside of this debate is even better because then we would have to think also what would they even feel. Although mentioning their background and their environment could be taken into account in the “strategy” category but thats also speculative.
“I treated this as who would win in a fight, not merely who is more over powered.”
If more powerful plus faster and more durable does not win the debate idk what else does. You can say Aang skills will dominate Naruto which is technically creating a script in which you claim you know the outcome of a fictional character’s battle. And also you did not show me which skill will dominate which skill of Naruto? And how can we prove that. How can we prove thats the course of action they will take?
I showed why Naruto is physically stronger, physically faster, physically more durable and overall thats what gives him the better chance on paper. And frankly all we can do is that.
“since endless gumption from a farmer would not overpower either of them. It was used to put my conclusions from the rest into one neat place, and make a point about grit and follow-through”
Im confused here, if you can clarify what does that mean.
“Aang would fight from a power disadvantage, but would more likely than not win via skill”
Aang was indeed shown to be in power disadvantage but even if skill was discussed, nobody ever established their character winning based on skill alone. Which skill exactly wins it for you? And again the problem of how much can we really into account those skills when we can’t verify how they would interact with each other (at least most of them).
Barney
04.16.2024 05:48PM
Reason:
While I'm more familiar with Avatar, I thought it would be an easy win for Naruto due to their Sexy Technique. Sadly, it did not even get mentioned.
A couple criticisms of the setup... Morality defines character, so these fights miss the point of themselves if that's wholly ruled out. Age, I liked the way it was argued, but picking a certain point in both shows would have avoided confusion (say end of season 1, or 20 episodes into each show?). Probably best to also say if they have their usual friends or not.
Power:
Pro takes this in better showcasing the power of his infantry (infant soldier). Each major power given its own subheading and details thereof, and then "Chakra" as one just for comparison to the other side's limitation on it ("Naruto's chakra reserves are not a problem either since he is an Uzumaki and Jinchuriki" is not a good counter, since no one in the audience is likely to know what that means). The ultimate abilities on either is an interesting bit, because while apparently Naruto loses his intellect to use his, I am certain Aang loses control when in his (as con mentions). This bleeds into the whole age thing, for if Aang has X powers...
I should add that lumping a bunch of diverse powers all together in a single paragraph, makes them lose weight. Since age of power are so vital, a list of each of the tails and what it enables (plus when attained) would make this far easier to grade.
Age:
I'm left with the impression (largely from pro's source) that Aang is 12 through the vast majority of the show, and perhaps for the final fight he's turned 13. Con may have not intended to bet so much on this, but with the steady back and forth, instead of coming to a reasonable compromise (like fine I accept 70 episodes worth of training, let's get back to the debate), he stood by it until the end (even telling people to go find sources for it). When the first source I find (timeline of Aang) verifies that it all happened within a single year.
>Book One: Water (12 BG - 100 AG)
>Book Two: Earth (Spring 100 AG)
>Book Three: Fire (Summer 100 AG)
>Post war (100 AG - 102 AG)
Speed:
Con brings up super speed that Naruto has to best Kakashi... And pro counters that was 16 year old Naruto, whereas at 12 he was not nearly that advanced into superpowers.
Both seem to be able to run on water, but Naruto almost certainly has a faster top speed. It's a weird one, I believe con is thematically correct, but over doing one trait gives pro room to mitigate its impacts.
Instant Deaths:
They're boring. I'm reminded of One Punch Man, which is a comedy series. These two have their comedic moments to be sure, but are not comedy wherein they solve all their problems by flying through the main villain Invincible Style in the first episode.
Durability:
They both have plot armor, big surprise...
Gumption:
I'm left with the impression that Aang is less powerful, and overcomes greater challenges. That ultimately wins.
P.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SdpjexsU7M
Addendum to my vote:
I treated this as who would win in a fight, not merely who is more over powered.
I actually think Naruto would take out Aang with a throwing star to the eye (or kunai if you prefer), but nothing like that shot up.
Gumption is not an explicit category in the debate. Looking back I did misuse the term, since endless gumption from a farmer would not overpower either of them. It was used to put my conclusions from the rest into one neat place, and make a point about grit and follow-through... The debate left me with the impression that Aang would fight from a power disadvantage, but would more likely than not win via skill (skill as shown by the debaters).
Durability is a weird concept on these shows.
Characters are always as durable as they need to be for the story, regardless of if a bystander would have survived it.
Iron Man shrugs off hits from tanks, but punches from a well preserved WWII veteran is a threat; at the same time, normal humans survive such punches instead of exploding (elevator scene comes to mind... if his strength was consistent, it would have been a scene from The Shining).
Plot armor makes examples of incredible durability non-initiative of lore unless it's explicitly stated to be a super power. That said, I was PMed a complaint of having not given fair weighing to durability, so I will be taking my vote down until I have a chance to re-review (have to get back to work right now)
Oh and plot armor explained:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfmKTe0QrKE
You brought to my sttention a crucial detail. How could I forget the sexy jutsu, Naruto takes the win for sure. Luckily CON forgot about it as well.
Thank you, I revoted with the rationale from the previous comment I made included and changed the source point to tied.
Well, I’ll base this on Barney’s comment because my vote’s on this debate. Here’s the text of the vote as it stands, his comment is the reason for removal:
“I believe that Benjamin *should have* won this but failed to address the core of the issue: age. He left numerous arguments by baggins about age on the table and conceded a full 70 episodes of aging without a word. On the other hand, baggins made this a big part of his argument and, although the claims are dubious, they are unanswered by PRO and thus must be considered as real according to PRO. If the timeline works according to how baggins described in *multiple* posts, Aang is simply underpowered, and Naruto has undergone serious improvements. Overall, Naruto seems to be favored in this case due to his abilities and durability.
In terms of sources, the Quora source makes me lean towards baggins enough to give him the vote.”
To give ijb1 a chance to revote the current invalid vote has to be removed pronto.
Okay, apologies on the source point. I thought that any notable advantage was enough to warrant giving a side the point (low barrier) and with the way you described it I would not have awarded that point.
To go more in detail about why Aang would lose: based on age, he has received little to no training and would be easily brought to avatar mode, which, as stated in con’s argument, is not as powerful as it seems on the surface. On the other hand, Naruto has significantly progressed and the power of the full nine tails is insane in comparison. As noted by Con, the power levels majorly differ between the series and it is clear that in Naruto there are more powerful characters. As Naruto is the main character, he is one of the most powerful characters in the series as well. His true power is more innate whereas Aang needs to train hard to learn many different bending types.
Note: I have watched both Naruto (not every episode but a lot of the beginning, past age 12) and Avatar the Last Airbender
A lot more detail is needed for sources, that is if they are warranted. Usually if both sides do their due diligence, sources should be tied. It needs a significant lead to win points from extra categories.
I’d say not. As a general rule, when there are many sources given in a debate, pointing to one and saying that it’s a poor source is not a sufficient reason to award source points.
The arguments points could also use more explication. As a general rule, you have to assess points made by both sides in the debate. Ijb, you point to some arguments made by Con and say what was missing from Pro’s argument, but I don’t see any direct assessment of what Pro actually said beyond the statement that “Aang is simply underpowered.” You can conclude that based on your interpretation of Pro’s arguments, but you have to show how you got there, and the path to that can’t be just pointing out what Con’s winning.
Is the reasoning in the newest vote sufficient to award source points?
That wasn’t my main point. Forget about the multiple tails. I made my point about speed and Naruto needed only 1 tail for that argument (not even a tail in Haku fight). Same goes for durability and physical strength, he doesn’t need more than 1 tail to top Aang in those categories. Tactics and skill advantages are biased and can go either way. So even if we give those 30% to Aang the W still goes to Naruto in every other category.
Like 30% of your argument, and also your conclusion, was that even 12 year old Naruto could get as many tails as he wants, despite his seal being strong- if that isn't a fake scenario I don't know what is.
Yeah okay I got that you dont like the sources and the inconsistency in the show is obvious. I think that goes both ways and it was already established. If you look for perfect logic and no contradictions in kids anime shows you wont find any. We know Aangs speed and powers are not consistent too. But we agreed that if we take into account every interpretation I have sources and material that suggests speeds as high as light and as for Aang the highest suggested speed is lighting. At minimum we can say Naruto has short bursts of hyper speed which would give him advantage in that category. Hakus speed can be confirmed to be faster than lighting because he had to be that fast to stop Kakashi from killling Zabuza. Adult Kakashi even in OG Naruto is OP compared to anything in ATLA. And that all happened while Naruto was beating Haku. What else is there to discuss? Durability? Naruto easily. And im talking about durability without Kurama and without any kind of jutsu. Whats Aangs durability without putting 4 elements between him and Naruto as a shield? How much can Aang take if he get hit once? How do you know how their abilities will interact with each other? How important are fake scenarios?
Naruto has databooks with wildly hyperbolic speed feats from the first arc that even deathbattle wiki does not accept as valid and is contradicted by everything else in Naruto and Shippuden.
Aang is definately hypersonic. And he is also consistently a lightning timer. But many people think lightning reactions and movement does not "fit" into ATLA, so headcannon it as "slow" lightning.
Dodging lightning is on par with dodging Haku, unless you are going to ignore the blatant fact that Naruto never reached 1x lightspeed untill KCM1, 10 powerups later.
Whether you are low-balling or high-balling, so long as you apply the same standard to both, Aang and Naruto are relative in speed.
So you admit that if we use both “hyperbolic” interpretations for their speed we can say Aang ranges from faster than wind to reacting to lighting and if we apply the same for Naruto we get much wider range because we have a character moving in the speed of light. Both are inconsistent but Naruto has kept up with Haku at the end of their fight and Haku was still extremely fast by then. That means even if we give Aang the lighting feat he is still slower in everything. This is based on information in the data book I’ve linked not only on animation style.
It's really hard yes. Especially since in ATLA there isn't technology to measure Aangs speed. So his speed ranges from at minimum "faster than the wind" and "running on water" to the more insane feats of dodging lightning in midair. Naruto is a series where one of the main methods of saying "x fighter is stronger than y fighter" is having them "teleport" behind their opponent with a kick loaded up or something. But that is a very inconsistent animation shorthand for superior speed. The same goes for turning into a blur. ATLA doesn't have a huge speed gap in any of it's major fights, and when he "fights" civillians he moves much slower. The best speed feats for Naruto that CON brought up was when he moved so fast that he created waves and winds. Apart from Aang arguably doing the same with running on water and creating massive winds by just running faster than wind. But that also begs the question of why doesn't that happen in every Naruto fight. The Naruto KCM2 clones , when moving orders of magnitude quicker than 1-tail, actually faster than light, should be passively creating orcanoes with every step they make, and yet they don't. So it appears like "hyperspeed" effects is just some extra flare they add into the most important fights with the highest budget and that have to look good. Naruto is wildly inconsistent, while ATLA is grounded and consistent.
Yeah, I thought about lightning in the series potentially having a different speed, but since it wasn’t really mentioned, I didn’t bring it up.
As for speed in general, trying to examine them in the context of their universes was necessary, but it didn’t seem like it was done well. I’m not sure how I’d go about it, but it felt like just saying “this universe has more speed feats” wasn’t enough and even pointing to Sasuke’s Sharingan as a measuring stick didn’t do much to tell me how fast Naruto was moving.
Thank you for voting.
Something that is my fault is I didn't link directly the moments of lightning movement. Here Zuko moves as fast as lightning, which we can see since both are moving in the same frame at the same time: https://youtu.be/rsrRdIh2WaQ?t=217. Here Aang jumps from one pillar to another, with at least 30% the speed of lightning, which we can see since both are moving in the same direction at the same time, but it doesn't immidiately hit him: https://youtu.be/rsrRdIh2WaQ?t=267. My interpretation is that lightning is just much slower in their universe, since that seems much more grounded than everything in the verse being relativistic in speed (moving in more than 1% of lightspeed). But with CON pulling Haku out to establish Naruto lightspeed I had to retaliate with maximum ATLA scaling.
Showing that, if you give Naruto the benefit of the doubt to have superhyperbolic speed, then you must also apply that lenience to Aangs feats, making them still equal.
But as you picked up on, neither of the characters are that fast.
I’ll aim to get on this. Send me a reminder in a few days if I haven’t voted.
Vote bump.
Vote bump
Vote bump.
Vote bump.
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>Reported Vote: FishChaser // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to pro (arguments)
>Reason for Decision: Benjamin gets several things wrong about 12 year old Naruto, For instance Naruto took the Chunin exams and learned the rasengan while still 12.
Even still, the avatar state is pretty hard to beat for 12 year old Naruto even assuming he could even contend with Aang in base form.
Benjamin also misrepresents Naruto as a mindless brute when Naruto is a creative/tactical genius but that alone doesn't win Naruto the fight.
Baggins also gets something wrong, get it actually works to his favor because Naruto CAN access some 9 tails chakra voluntarily at this point, but he has to run out of his normal chakra first.
At the end of the day, I think it's clear that Aang has more power, speed and versatility which will rape Naruto directly in the anus cheeks.
Also, the likelihood of Naruto passing the first tail is low because over time, the seal on Kurama weakened allowing more of Kurama's chakra to get through. Chances are that Naruto at age 12 would only get one tail at best and it is more likely that he wouldn't even get that far since it took almost being killed by Sasuke and knowing that he was losing/being betrayed by his best friend to activate the first tail.
There is a way that Baggins could have argued to be the biggest douche bag possible, since Aang was frozen he was technically just suspended in a 12 year old body while being much older. Technically when Aang was 12, he only had air bending in base form.
Baggins overstates Naruto's speed, which is significantly lower than lightspeed and is still lower even later when he gains six paths sage mode. Haku starts to move in front of Kakashi's raikiri before he starts charging towards Zabuza if I remember correctly.
The claim that Naruto can tank fire blasts in base form is wrong. The only time I remember him getting flamed in base form that one might interpret him as tanking it is when Naruto fought Sasuke on the roof of the hospital, but he used his rasengan to create a barrier similar to Hyuga "rotation".
>Reason for Mod Action:
The voter appears to provide a great deal of analysis regarding the veracity of certain claims within the debate, some of which are actual rebuttals made by the debaters, and some of which are the voter himself inserting his insights. While that is valuable feedback for the debaters, it is not in and of itself a basis for the decision. The only line of text in this RFD that speaks to the decision directly is:
"At the end of the day, I think it's clear that Aang has more power, speed and versatility which will rape Naruto directly in the anus cheeks."
While the voter is welcome to post feedback for the debaters, the voter should be clear about what arguments by Pro and Con led him to believe that Aang has these three elements over Naruto. It does not help that the voter does not point to any specific points made in Aang's favor, focusing his attention almost entirely on the claims for Naruto, which makes it difficult to determine how the voter thinks Pro established that Aang has these advantages.
**************************************************
Sorry but your vote doesn’t make sense to me. If someone can review it that could be helpful.
1. You confirm what I have said in the debate
2. You confirm what I have said in the debate again, I never said base form Naruto beast AS Aang
3. You confirm what I have said in the debate again
4. You make your own argument that PRO did not made and cant be used in his favor
5. You said “at the end of the day Aang has more speed” without analyzing anything that has been said about both characters stats and verses. I have shown that even if both characters are not light speed literally, Naruto still moves “in lighting speeds” compared to Aang.
6. What the chances of Naruto getting to a more than one tail mode are not established by PRO either. How does that count as a point for PRO?
7. Sasuke who is the second strongest character in the whole Naruto verse stabs Naruto in the heart, Naruto survives and yet in this vote this counts as a point for PRO? All of my points about Aang having trouble with regular people and being killed by Azula and by just some storm are ignored by both PRO and this voter.
8. I didn’t want to argue for the 100 years in the iceberg because at the end of the day PRO would’ve just said that he can enter Avatar State in any age just like Naruto can access Kurama at any age. And it’s more of Kurama accessing him not the other way because he is still a kid, yes (I don’t see that so much as a problem, it’s still the same power). Which is a positive not negative. Kurama can interfere even if NARUTO DIES. If Aang dies nobody is there to heal him.
9. Voter states that I overestimate something about Naruto’s speed but did not give any explanation how I did that nor any explanation how PRO is right about Aang’s speed
10. The claim that Naruto tanks fireballs is supported by a video that I provided from canon episodes where Naruto tanks fire balls multiple times (not addressed at all).
SOURCES;
https://avatartimeline.wordpress.com/
https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Aang
https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/History_of_Aang_(12_BG_-_100_AG)
https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/User:Seelentau/Naruto_Timeline#Databooks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
https://narutodb.xyz/
It’s time for a DEATH BATTLEEEEEEEEEE!
Fixed.
You haven’t stated your position