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rich men north of richmond. it's not that catchy, but it struck a nerve with the working class. the dude turned down millions to sign a music contract. he's topping the charts, even beating some of taylor swift's new songs. he rails against welfare lolz
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the usa isn't divided well enough geographically for a civil war. even family and friends dont agree with each other that much sometimes.
it'd be more like civil unrest and anarchy
i think the country isn't as bad as pundits would have you believe. the average person is very immature politicallly so they latch onto stereotypes and undeveloped ideas, but most of the country is okay with how things are, we're no where close to getting people ready to give up their security to fight a war
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who needs experts anyway? we dont need no education, we don't need no thought control
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won't you come back bro T? we need the comic relief
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King must have been ignorant and or stupid
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do blacks get discriminated against for being black? sometimes. do white? not as much. given whites dont face the same level of discrimination, it's fair to say they have white privilege. it's not rocket science.
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@IlDiavolo
i mean you didn't really give a deeper meaning as to why we suffer to begin with. your answer is for us to evolve, but why is it such that we're put into that situation to begin with?
is your main beef with what i said that i think we probably agree to a life that includes suffering? i did say maybe not all of us do that. and if evolving is a necessary part of our existence why would it be so far fetched to think maybe the ones who have to suffer in that process didn't volunteer to be part of that process?
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@IlDiavolo
my impression is that you believe in the afterlife right? what is your view of why we suffer, or the purpose of suffering? if your view is that suffering is to inform us to avoid said suffering, why is it such that there is suffering to begin with?
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We know all the gods you mention r fictional. If we accept reality, that's a fact. We have reasons to believe a more generic God is true, and we have reasons to believe Jesus is true. So it's fair to think those ideas r true. To the extent that we lack lnowledge, virtue as Co creators can be found in faith.
I know u r going through a doubting phase, but u also need to stay dedicated to truth
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@Best.Korea
I think that's probably true, we knew what we would experience. We r part of God and eternal and that's what many nde experiencers say so it makes sense. If it's not true that we all came here knowingly then I think at least many of us did
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@Best.Korea
God might be more about valuing experience and growing through strife. for most people, they can become good people if they struggle with overcoming their faults and overcoming the faults of others. for those on the margin who suffer, humans can some day use technoology to co create a solution to their problem. i pointed out that Jesus said it will glorify God when the suffering is no more in the afterlife. i know that sounds like a cop out, but what if there is a purpose to suffering? that's a great answer to how to find glory in suffering, if it's possble to find that glory, then this is it. again, i understand if you thought i was rationalizing and coping out, but i'm trying to be an optimist. plus when people who die and come back tell us of the afterlife, they say things like we choose our experience and that we can grow and learn from any experience we have, even the negative. and, finally, like i said, if God's focus is on 'experience', then even if the experince is bad, it's still experience. life and hte universe for humans is about discovery and growth. we can find that even in the worst negatives that are out there.
it's like glass half full v glass half empty. i choose to find purpose in everything, and see the glass half full. you can choose to say life's a bitch and the glass is half empty, i just choose not to accept that as reality. NDEs and the afterlife expereinces are on my side on this too, as well as a viable or possible way of looking at it, so it's not like i'm just blindly choosing to focus on the good just because i'm not a realist. you have compelling arguemnts that you are more the realist, i just think it's mistaken, and to the extent that i have a choice in my view or reality, i choose to think the glass if half full
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@HistoryBuff
of course it does. Private corporations want profit. If they make more profit pushing 1 major over another, they will do that. That is what capitalism is. There is way more money in investment banking than in say, social work or nursing. But social workers and nurses are way more necessary for society.we shoujldn't pretend that the point of college isnt to make money, and the point of colleges as businesses isnt to make money... we're just acknowledging that and making the bottom line the main focus.ok, so you are talking about the priority being completely backwards. The goal of education should not be profit, it should be public good. We don't only teach profitable subjects in highschool. We teach whatever subjects we think will help that person in life and help society. University should be no different. The whole idea that schools should be profitable is a bad one. It incentives outcomes that are not best for society or even the students.
supply and demand will still be in effect. the less colleges focus on nurses, the higher nurses will be paid. so more students will pick that. it will all balance out. the more bankers are focused on, the less profitable they will be and less people will choose it. the most talented people will make the most money, which is justice as it should be. it will balance out.
plus choosing majors will still be a basic choice of what someone wants to do for a living. people choose to be social workers now because they want to, i'm sure they still will want to. some people want to be nurses, so they will pick that. the colleges will still find it profitable to teach nurses and social workers. maybe some colleges will focus on investment bankers, but there will always be someone out there willing to make profit at teaching nurses etc, and even teaching philosophy majors.
i did point out that we can require some humanities classes be taught. it will be taught efficiently though, instead of incentivizing colleges to just drag college out with excessive classes because we are writing them blank checks.
we dont write blank checks to high schools, because the local government regulates the whole thing. what you are proposing is letting the private sector ask whatever the maximum is that they can ask, and then expect the government to pay it. percent of income plans puts a cap on all that. if a nurse can't afford 100k student loans, why do you think it's okay for the government to pay it? the person who is at the center of all this should pay what they are able, and with my system, by definition, they can afford it
if we didn't do my percent of income plan, i would be okay with paying tuition directly from the government, if prices were regulated. the whole world does it to some extent with healthcare, and the most sucessful countries do it a lot with healthcare, so i wouldn't mind if we did that with tuition. it sounds too complicated though, so i'd prefer just making everyone pay a percent of income.
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@HistoryBuff
nothing the government does is perfect, everything they do will need modified, that's just the nature of the beast. so if people are trying to get around paying a percent of their income, then the other monetary rewards they get will need to be taxed somehow.
you can't just write blank checks to the private sector and not expect costs to sky rocket. it's throwing gas on fire. that's what would happen if you just write checks to colleges for tuition.
why do you assume my version would mess up the job market? just because colleges are focusing on profitable majors doesn't mean less profitable majors wouldn't be funded. if someone is willing to go to school and pay their starbucks wages for a philosphy degree, then there will be a college who will take them up on that offer. it's money in exchange for a liberal arts education that basically costs nothing. maybe the school will focus on philophy majors who would likely be smart enough to get a high paying job despite picking a non profitable major.... i imagine though there would always be a college willing to take tens of thousand in exchange for teaching lesser able students the art of philosphy.
we shoujldn't pretend that the point of college isnt to make money, and the point of colleges as businesses isnt to make money... we're just acknowledging that and making the bottom line the main focus. but again, it's not the only focus, so i think you are jumping to conclusiosn because you dont want to admit what a stupid idea you have to just write blank checks to colleges.
again, like our other thread about mens rea and trump with you clearly distorting everything in that article from a prosecutor... this is just another example of showing someone how they have stupid ideas, and the person is too stubborn to accept it
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@TheUnderdog
why did you just ignore all my great counter points to your awful idea and just double down on said awful idea?
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@zedvictor4
here's some of my ideas if you wanna debate them.
affordable housing solution - bring back boarding houses with a drug search waiver
affordable healthcare solution - grow healthcare costs at or less than inflation and make insurance companies non-profit
affordable education solution - stop giving out loans and instead require limited percent of income plans
i dont claim they're perfect, but they're goin in the right direction and far better than the ideas from politicians.
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what do ya'll think?
of course this is just a generalization, as there's lots of exceptions.
i've heard some say democrats have no ideas and republicans have bad ideas.
what are ya'll's thoughts on all this?
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@Savant
i would say you should sacrifice the one for the greater good in both your examples.
instead of looking for a loop hole to 'the ends doesn't justify the means', why not just scrap the ends means argument altogether? obviously we shouldn't do whatever we want to achieve good ends, but there is the concept of 'proportionalism', which says as long as the means are proportional to the ends, they are moral. i know there's less moral clarity when it comes to the details, but the moral framework is more workable. i can't find any hypotheticals that trip up the whole paradigm when it comes to proportionalism.
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@IlDiavolo
we are God, we are also the universe discovering itself. we are part of creation. when people go to the other side, they will wonder why they let people starve to death and didn't do more to make progress for our species and the planet.
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People who experience the afterlife also tell us that thus life is like a dream and fleeting. I know it's hard to be of consolation when we r suffering, but it's still consoling if this life is but a dream
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@Best.Korea
I know u r being tongue in cheek, but the proper analogy wouldn't be God hitting us, but rather God letting us be hit
Do u view God as unable or willing to fix bad stuff? Do u think he has evil motives? Do u view him as George Carlin said of God, a lazy incompetent father figure who doesn't give a fuck?
I view God as unwilling and to some extent unable but unlike atheists i say it'sfor a good purpose. It's in our best interest to experience what we do.
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woke is about being overly sensitive to identity politics of minorities. calling things racist that aren't racist, for example. they're so open minded that their brains have fallen out. it's fair to label the phenomenon since it's so prevalent in society.
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@Best.Korea
i wouldn't assume all the bad stuff that happens is a mistake. struggles make us stronger, we are co creators in that sense, we use our free will to manifest a better world. evil is the result of free will, and we are simply allowed to suffer the consequences due to us living in community... it goes with the territory. suffering, when someone has a disease, jesus said it is to glorify God when they can one day be disease free, like a man born blind who one day will see. these are the way i see it.... conservative christians view it as the result of the fall of man, punishment as a result of a sinful world. that's not how i see it, but it's possible.
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many an atheist: "i dont believe in God, and i hate God"
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Also notice, I don't think the article even once used the word motive. The prosecutor must have been too stupid to use the very word he's trying to establish?
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@HistoryBuff
you are trying to say the new yorker made a mistake in their headline, and then you try to spin everything in the article as having to do with motive and not the state of mind or mens rea of trump. maybe the new yorker made no mistake, and you are simply mistaken on how you perceive the article? that seems a lot more objectively right doesn't it? anyways, motive isn't necessary in proving guilt if a mens rea isn't required in the law. you are trying to pretend that jury's might just simply want to know before convicting. you are assuming a run away jury, where the jury doesn't enforce the law. this is how slippery your argument is, you have to assume the new yorker is wrong, and made a whole article about how the prosecurtion wants to determine motive just to avoid a run away jury. that's a ridiculous argument. plus you are really trying to weasle your way into trying to spin the article... the article is clear... trump had to knowingly and without mistake about the circumstances, break the law.
"There are very few that say regardless of your intent, you can be held criminally culpable."
"Of course, the former President has been trying for two and a half years to continue to say the election was stolen, I think in part to be able to make an argument, “This is what I truly believed.”"
"One is the comment you raised about him saying to Mike Pence, “You’re too honest.” But there’s also another time where he’s given the option by John Eastman, and someone else tells him, “There’s not actually authority for this.” And he says, “Well, I like what that guy said anyway.” So there’s another tell that he’s aware."
"The jury, as part of its instructions, has to determine whether things were done knowingly. There’ll be instructions with respect to each one of the charges. In these crimes, I wouldn’t necessarily say that there’s a legal duty to go do a certain amount of due diligence for Trump. But I think it really comes down to, again, ultimately a fact question. Did he actually believe there was fraud, or was he using that to try to be the basis for the schemes that are alleged in these conspiracies and indictments so that he could remain in power? And I think if everything in this indictment is proved, there’s pretty overwhelming evidence that he knew full well what he was doing and he did it anyway in order to stay in office. But, like I said, that’s a jury question."
i've concluded that you don't have a reading comprehension problem... you have a psychological problem. my argument is plainly in the article and we have to assume a lot of ridiculous stuff to make your argument make sense. this is just a case of sometimes showing someone facts of how they are wrong doesn't change their views.
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@HistoryBuff
that headline does match what the prosecurtor and the article says. you are just misinterpreting it and ignoring the vast rest of the article. instead of thinking the article made a mistake in the headline, couldn't it be that you just misunderstood the article, especially given all the rest of it supports the headline?
again, read what the article says, then read what you say...
"The case will hinge on proving whether the former President truly believed that the election was stolen as he attempted to overturn it."
and now look at what you said...
"It doesn't matter if trump believed the election was stolen."
you are making the opposite argument of what the law is.
i dont know how to make this any clearer.
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@HistoryBuff
if motive doesn't matter in determining his guilt, why would proving his motive even matter?
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@HistoryBuff
i'm still trying to figure out if you have a reading comphrehension problem, or if it's just a psychological problem on your part. the whole article talks about things like 'intent' 'honesty' 'knowingly' etc. i dont know what you're smoking to not understand this.
I want to talk about proving the President’s state of mind, which seems to be the most contested aspect of how to interpret this indictment. Can you explain why that’s so important, if you think it is important, and what you think prosecutors need to accomplish on this score?Well, any time you’re talking about criminal charges, state of mind is important. In legal parlance, it’s mens rea, and there are very, very few crimes in the U.S. code that do not require a state of mind that involves the intent to commit the crime that you’re charged with. That’s called specific intent or even general intent. There are very few that say regardless of your intent, you can be held criminally culpable.So the detail in the indictment shows that the President was advised multiple times by people working for him, by state officials, by his own Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General, that there was simply no factual basis to find that there had been any kind of election fraud on a scale that would be outcome-determinative. Of course, the former President has been trying for two and a half years to continue to say the election was stolen, I think in part to be able to make an argument, “This is what I truly believed.”The indictment frequently uses the word “knowingly” about Trump when it refers to all these things he’s accused of doing. And, like you say, it presents evidence that a lot of people, people in his Administration, various secretaries of state, were telling him that his claims of fraud were wrong. But you could point to all kinds of things that his advisers told him time and again during the course of his Administration that were true that I think he probably sincerely does not believe. Now you could say, “Well, that’s because he’s an idiot,” or whatever else the reason might be. But the most striking part of the indictment may be where he tells Pence, “You’re too honest,” because that was a sign of him really understanding that there’s something wrong with this. The other examples didn’t seem to me to necessarily show that.There are other things like the Pence example in there. But, remember, this is ultimately going to be a question for the jury to determine. Did he honestly believe there was fraud in the election, or is that just an excuse right now to not only try to get reëlected and campaign on that but also to try to avoid criminal responsibility? And so that’s one of the reasons you see time after time in the indictment the fact that he was told by all of his closest advisers, by the investigators actually investigating these claims, that there was no merit to them. You can’t stick your head in the sand and ignore all of the evidence and say, “I had a firm belief.” I mean, you could do that, but it’ll be up to the jury to determine.There are other examples in the indictment where he does seem to reveal that he was aware that the claims of fraud were overblown, or that what people like John Eastman were telling him he could do was not, in fact, lawful. One is the comment you raised about him saying to Mike Pence, “You’re too honest.” But there’s also another time where he’s given the option by John Eastman, and someone else tells him, “There’s not actually authority for this.” And he says, “Well, I like what that guy said anyway.” So there’s another tell that he’s aware.I don’t know exactly what the legal standard is, but isn’t it that you have to at least try to make a good-faith effort to learn the facts if you’re in Trump’s position? You can’t just stick your head in the sand?The jury, as part of its instructions, has to determine whether things were done knowingly. There’ll be instructions with respect to each one of the charges. In these crimes, I wouldn’t necessarily say that there’s a legal duty to go do a certain amount of due diligence for Trump. But I think it really comes down to, again, ultimately a fact question. Did he actually believe there was fraud, or was he using that to try to be the basis for the schemes that are alleged in these conspiracies and indictments so that he could remain in power? And I think if everything in this indictment is proved, there’s pretty overwhelming evidence that he knew full well what he was doing and he did it anyway in order to stay in office. But, like I said, that’s a jury question.You said in an earlier answer, essentially, “Well, everyone’s telling him that there’s no fraud.” Could he say, “Well, actually, some people were telling me there was, and some of these people were in fact my lawyers, and so I listened to them, and that’s what you’re supposed to do, listen to your lawyers.” Could he blame them?
He is probably going to try to make an advice-of-counsel defense involving both Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman. But that defense requires certain things that I don’t think he’s going to be able to establish here. And, for one thing, both of them are co-conspirators who I expect will be indicted sometime in the future. A lawyer who is part of the conspiracy himself will cause an advice-of-counsel claim to falter. In other words, you can’t find a lawyer who’s part of the conspiracy or joins you in a conspiracy and tells you what to do and then say, “I was relying on advice of counsel.” That’s probably a better way to put it.
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@HistoryBuff
if you can't admit you're wrong here, it's just a case either of reading comprehension on your part, or more likely a case of 'you can't change a person's mind even when the facts are against them'.
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@HistoryBuff
are you seriously arguing the new yorker made a typo? the whole article is reinforcing the headline. did trump have knowledge that the election wasn't stolen? that's what the article asked. by your standard, his knowledge is irrelevant. why did trump say pence was being too honest? the only reason it matters is because if trump thought his actions were a lie, then trump wasn't being honest himself. by your standard that doesn't matter if trump was honestly mistaken. even beyond the headline, the article starts out defining specific intent and that it matters if trump thought the election was stolen. reading the sheer weight of everything in the article, i think we can only conclude that you are reading too much into the idea that just because someone claims they are crazy they cant automatically escape culpability. maybe the prosecuter meant we should look at the circumstances and not just grant exceptions out of empty claims of the defense.
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there is also a difference between general and specific intent. you might be confusing those ideas.
anyways, look at the italicized headline in my last post...
"The case will hinge on proving whether the former President truly believed that the election was stolen as he attempted to overturn it."
and now look at what you said...
"It doesn't matter if trump believed the election was stolen."
you are making the opposite argument of what the law is.
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@HistoryBuff
did you even read the article i posted in the opening post? the article headline tag "The case will hinge on proving whether the former President truly believed that the election was stolen as he attempted to overturn it." you are trying to argue the opposite of what the article is, the opposite of the federal prosecutor mentioned in the article.
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@HistoryBuff
intent is a central factor in the crime. it's not just wanting to know motive just for kicks... if he didn't have knowledge or intent, then no crime was committed. that's what the article says. you are confusing motive with criminal intent.
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@Greyparrot
it's pretty clear the only people who think he incited a riot or insurrection are people too bias to see clearly. that's why the real people who are calling the shots on the charges wouldn't romp on things that are at best so argumentative and subjective.
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all i see is a bunch of 'trump did some things that look like crimes' v 'i dont know what i'm talking about either but i deny all terms and conditions, with my fingers in my ears'
trump's intent and knowledge are at the heart of this.
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@oromagi
you make the claim that criminal intent isn't a thing here, but i've heard several credible sources that say it is. you didn't do much to dispute my claim but went on a tangent of assumptions on your part that trump obviously committed crimes. here is a good source that says criminal intent is very much at the heart of all this, whether trump was being genuine or full of shit.
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@HistoryBuff
I could give ya the obstruction charge, at least if it's normal to charge people for obstruction when the underlying activity wasn't illegal. It does seem pretty serious and not right that he wouldn't comply and actively obscured them
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@HistoryBuff
1) all the other crimes are plausible too. Like stealing classified documents, refusing to give them back, lying and saying you had given them back, then trying to destroy the evidence that you had illegally tried to keep them. That is very plausible and it is highly likely he will be found guilty for it.2) the fake electors are illegal no matter what trump's mental state is. There is a strict process for how elections work. Trying to bypass it and add fake electors to illegally hold onto power is illegal, even if you think you are doing the right thing. But also, they seem to have witnesses that say trump knew the allegations he was making were false. We also know that trump and his team hired people to try to find evidence of fraud and the report they got back said there wasn't any. So he knew there wasn't any fraud, and apparently that can be proven.
i would agree that obstructing the classified documents case should be a crime. but if he had the authority to take or keep the documents in the first place, then obstruction is trying to find something with no underlying basis to it. in my opinion, if someone like a president takes documents, it's a special circumstance, even if we dont like that he did it. i realize they argue that it don't matter if trump claimed to declassify them, but that seems like a technicality for such a special circumstance. if the underlying act wasn't a crime, then the obstructing of the underlying act should't be a crime either. i guess what i'm saying is that it's too hokey to say taking the documents should be a crime, even if it technically was.
i was watching the news and they had a bit on trump trying to sabatage the election process even outside of georgia. i dont rememeber if it was about electors or trying to stop the count, but one of them at least and i thought both of them required criminal intent. maybe it wasn't both of them, and i could stand to be corrected. i know it's not always necessary for a crime to require criminal intent as an element of the crime, but i was surprised when i saw that bit that said intent was required.
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the only two crimes that seem plausible is the georgia election interference, and the effort to stop the count and place false electors in the other elections. while that's a good argument for crimes, both crimes require that trump had to intend to commit the crimes. trump is a crazy sonofabitch, is he not? if anyone believes his own BS, it's trump. so maybe he didn't have the mens rea, the criminal intent, with these alleged crimes. if he's not guilty of these two crimes, i would say he should walk free.
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@Greyparrot
just dont ask me to drive my car less for climate change. everyone else can make that sacrifice, though.
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dont you miss the days when these were the only issues that mattered? 'merica
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@Best.Korea
Leviticus 15:16–18 states that any male who emits semen is considered ritually impure - whether the emission came through masturbation, nocturnal emission, or sex between married heterosexual partners.
if all emissions were unclean this must be a ceremonial law. not something to do with inherent morality. the old testament as you know is full of a lot of BS. i look to the bible for issues on related to faith and morals, and this emission thing could only loosely be tied to morality. if sex between hetero married was unclean, which we know is moral... this almost surely is just ceremonial and only old testament relic of the past.
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@Best.Korea
other animals might not be smart enough to masturbate. we are primates anyway so if other primates do it, it seems natural.
do you not care about what the bible says about masturbation? how do you view the role of the bible on that issue? do you still defer yet think it's probably error filled, or how much have you given up on it as a source of truth?
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i think we're meant to be in a relationship. masturbation can feel empty at the end, but that's i would think only because it's not the fullness that God intended for us.
plus, i'm sure some folks have had it rammed so hard that getting off is bad, that they feel guilty after sex.
'feelings' arent the best basis for truth.
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i think you should look at the bible. it doesnt say masturbation is wrong, period. jesus does say you shouldn't lust after a woman, but the word he used for lust meant covet, which is similar to the ten commandments. covet just means inordinate desire. if it's excessive it's bad, but otherwise i'd say it's okay. st paul said it's better to get married than burn with passion, but that phrase is too vague to mean masturbation is wrong. people often point to the story of onan who didn't impregnant his brother's widow as God commanded but spilled his seed... this phrase is often said to be about masturbation but really it's about not following God's command.
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@Best.Korea
id do a forum debate so you can get a wide array of opinions, then when you feel confident in your view, you could go one on one. but whatevs, how ever you do it, you do you.
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@Best.Korea
it might help you to get other's views on that topic. or a liberal christian view of masturbation and the bible. you seem willing to take on liberal views, so maybe you should look into that issue too
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@Best.Korea
u should start a debate on masturbation. i dont know your view with your new transformation, but i'm sure some schmuck will take you on. forum debate better than one on one though.
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@Best.Korea
"I didnt mass debate before, so I noticed that now after mass debating for the first time."
sounds like a wee teen goin through puberty. i also like to mass debate, preferably about who should considered the top master baiter.
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