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Minimum wage debate with very short voting window. 2 days left. All votes appreciated. Come vote!
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Only 1 week voting window :( please help!
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@Dr.Franklin
I do also disagree with large portions of your list. Boys get beaten more, but they also get more attention as the promising heirs. They are being beaten because they are boys and have higher gender norm expectations. This is the same reason that leads to more suicide and mental illness amongst men. The greater responsibility that comes with the greater rights puts an unnecessary strain on "the bread winner" when this strain could be easily shared by both partners. Strict gender norms hurt both sexes.
Feminists are fighting against these norms. Antifeminists seek to maintain these norms, and maintain the high violence, mental illness, and suicide rates of men. We badly need pro men groups to champion our cause, not anti women hate groups that try to trip others while not doing anything for us. The feminazi myth is a few random minimal following bloggers, not mainstream feminists as propaganda sites try to make you think. This is called scapegoating, wake up.
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@Dr.Franklin
I agree with large chunks of your list. Why are pro-men groups so busy bashing feminists instead of fighting for mens rights, like child custody equality?
Sometimes it feels like feminists, in their quest to eliminate gender norms, are doing more for men's family court justice then any mens group.
I wish we had actual men groups fighting for our concerns, instead of anti women hate groups simply bashing the other side while doing nothing but maintaining the status quo that is your list of complaints.
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@ILikePie5
It's very interesting that in your previous post you said:
taking money away from folks who have earned it through their work is inherently immoral even if you try to justify it by giving it to others.
But when i showed that most rich do not earn their fortunes and that the workers also work extremely hard, you say:
Life is unfair. Not everyone can be rich. Get over it.
You did say that when you said we are taking the wealthy money they earned through work. What about defending the workers work and its value?
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@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
Ww2 was definitely a major contributer to our recovery, but the min wage and other regulations were also a major part of it. At least we can all agree these "socialist" policies certainly didnt hinder the recovery.
However that is not the point. There are many politicians on the right with similar policies to trump that dont routinely lie about everything. That dont try to profit at our expense (please dont bring up that penny salary, thats just dumb in comparison to the multimillions and the prestige he has gained). The reason you will regret voting for him is his character, not his policies.
This statement was not meant to be debated now. Its something many on the right will come to realize with time.
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@Greyparrot
Lots of info there, im sure the cato institute didnt post wrong info, but as a highly partisan think tank, i wouldnt be suprised if they left details out. I cant speak to the 1920s stuff at the moment, however i will say that i dont think every policy the government passes is good. Some are good, some are bad. What i do know is that without any government policy, it is always bad, so giving me isolated examples of bad government laws wont negate good government laws or the reality of what happens without any government laws.
However i can speak to the parts of your posts regarding the new deal. The new deal did raise costs for businesses, but thats not what lead to the unemployment... the new deal was in response to the unemployment. Therefore the unemployment preceeded the new deal, and was actually resolved by the new deal. The higher costs on the businesses were not artbitrary but they were wage increases which boosted spending, and tax increases which boosted government projects and stimulated the economy. Your link is completely backwards regarding that part.
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@ILikePie5
You think the gap is increasing because the rich get richer and the poor get poorer which is misleading. The rich do get richer, but the poor are also getting richer. The steepness of the slope of each is where the difference lies. But you forcibly taking money away from folks who have earned it through their work is inherently immoral even if you try to justify it by giving it to others. Property rights are human rights.
I dont believe i mentioned income inequality. I did not look at the rich. Im just looking at working peoples wages vs working peopled costs. And you have to be joking me about hard workers. Poor people do extremely difficult and necessary jobs. What is keeping their wages down is not the value of their work or how hard they work, but how many workers there are too replace them if they demand higher wages.
Sure, ill give you that some rich people, the ones who start poor, are incredibly hard workers, and often make our world better with their innovations... but thats a handful. Most rich are born rich and let their money work for them. They aint hard workers, they didnt earn their fortunes. I have no problem with rewarding hard work, but opportunity needs to be there for all. That is not the case. And your "poor people are lazy, rich people work hard" myth is nonsense. The *working* poor (min wage is not a welfare discussion) have earned their money, and assuming they work full time, they earned a fair shot at the american dream.
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@Christen
Ill just say that chicago seems to be one of the few, if not the only place in usa where crime is rising, meanwhile many cities have strict gun control. With that out of the way, lets focus this thread to min wage.
Lowing taxes allows people to have more money to invest back into their business and do things like hire more employees. http://archive.fo/wCPSM
That sounds like an apriori theory, kinda like a stationary earth. We have minimal unemployment and previous min wage boosts resulted in no overall job loss, and coincided with massive gdp growth the following years. Evidence in my debate on min wage with athias.
Prices will go down, but people are already struggling with just rent (which is mostly based of land value, not labor, and will not fall).Rents are so high in the first place because of low supply and high demand. When you increase the supply (build more housing units) the price can go down. I've explained how this happens in California, where there are ridiculous restrictions/regulations that make it hard to build more housing units.Cheap as the prices of goods may become, who are you selling it to?To whoever wishes to buy them.
The problem isnt a lack of people who desire the goods, its a lack of people that can afford to buy the goods. I believe that would have been clear if you would have quoted the previous sentence as well.
What ludicrous regulations? California is not the only place with an affordabe housing shortage, every major city has it. And i dont think regulations that keep contruction materials from falling on pedestrians or keep people from hammering 24 hours a day for several years when others live nearby as well is wrong. You have to protect the interests of all people in those densely packed cities. That means alot of rules and regulations. Without them, it would be dysfunctional chaos.
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@Christen
Wow. So much to address.
You say gun control is failing everywhere, yet cite only chicago, and from a blog. How about other cities like new york with record low crime rates. If their police chiefs themselves make any complaints is the abundance of guns smuggled from loose gun law states. Unless we start putting customs borders within our nation, looking at other national examples also prove you wrong.
But back to the minimum wage. Many of your concerns were covered when i responded to you in post #56.
Rather then have an infinity conversation, ill focus on one point. Prices will go down, but people are already struggling with just rent (which is mostly based of land value, not labor, and will not fall). Cheap as the prices of goods may become, who are you selling it to?
Besides, how can we be pricing out labor at record unemployment? Do you think adding the tiny (compared to the overall workforce) homeless population is worth slashing wages? Most people are employed, and rising wages havent stopped that. Your point is as logical as a stationary earth. It works on paper, at first, but not in reality. Just like lowering taxes didnt create any jobs, raising minimum wage has never cost jobs. If your gonna try to prove me otherwise, please cite more then just the restaurant industry.
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@ebuc
You would be suprised.
Do you believe most white americans are racist because you feel all people are to some degree racist? I can agree with that, but i would disagree on the immoral part. Certainly not virtuous, but not deserving of being called out like that.
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@ebuc
We do not know what you are *implying* by the phrase immoral racist as you refuse to define it. I have a feeling you define all white people as inherently racist and i suspect you are of the mind that certain people, like black people cannot be racist. I do not like to assume and have been trying to get clarification from you, but you refuse to define your own words.
What do YOU mean by immoral racists because you seem to think that immoral racists are most americans.
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@ILikePie5
Breadlines were an american staple during the great depression after free market liberitarianism collapsed our economy and socialist welfare policies brought us out of the depression and made us the #1 superpower.
The founders of the Soviet union, N.korea, china and others became their first kings. They were not communist states who failed, but dictatorships that were good at propaganda. Do you really think capitalism's rise of income inequality wont result in bread lines? Wake up.
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@ebuc
Dictionaries provide definitions for indivudal words. Immoral racist is 2 words, each with their own definition. I was asking for your defintion of the phrase.
Do you believe nonwhite people can be racist?
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@ebuc
Is there a reason you refuse to share your explicit definition of racism instead of random examples?
Is immoral racism define by a persons actions or their history?
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@ebuc
A handful examples is not a definition. How about the average white person of various backgrounds?
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@zedvictor4
But there is no need to take science out. Science is what lead us to such options by discovering the big bang to begin with.
The bang was the beginning of "our" universe. "Our" space-time. It has no idea, nor claims to know what happened at the moment of, and before the big bang. Thus all these options are valid hypothesis, although untestable.
This discussion is pure philosophy, but that doesnt mean we cant use the facts of science as tools for our speculations.
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@zedvictor4
I dont believe time is tangible, but i disagree with your opportunity definition.
Time must have existed before the big bang in some form, maybe even space. That is what seems to make the most logical sense.
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@zedvictor4
nothing can occur without time. It is stasis.
events occur in time.
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quite the quality discourse. so many grievances :)
being the default, I dont much identify with "white."
mostly I feel like an American, with a bit of my old country for flair. And my ancestral ethnicity for fun.
Also highly identify based on my hobbies.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
There will come a day when much of the republican party, maybe even you, will deny voting for this man.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Ukraine.
Its one thing to profit.
Its another to use your position of power to retain your position of power.
Im sure emolutments will be part of the impeachment, altho not the main event.
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@ebuc
The haves are not the ones in control. They exercize power indirectly by using ad money to buy your vote without paying you. But the source of power is still our vote, if we as a collective choose to use it wisely.
Im assuming USA. May be different elsewhere.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I love how trump defenses are the same ones a gang member would use in a movie. "I was charging for protection. It is fair business. Show me explicit threat, no threat! Ask weak person who i will see later, they say no threat! Right?"
Attempting a crime is also a crime. He is reserving the seats in his own hotel. Unless he makes the announcement that he is paying, which he hasnt yet, hes paying himself. Hundreds of millions of government dollars. Our dollars. If canada did 80 mil, im guessing were going easy triple digits mils.
He has made exponents on any losses, and he also gotten one of the greatest titles under his belt, the POTUS. Worth far more then money. Prestige. Power. History books.
You must be kidding bringing up his penny salary, what good has he done? (Obvious veterans and 9/11 bills aside, no president doesnt do that. Thats like not kicking kittens).
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@ebuc
The rich dont care, but we as a society should care avout social upheaval. We are not yet a fully russia style oligarchy. We have to ensure our nation's econoky is sustainable and worthy of the richest 1st world nation.
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@Christen
Probably because they're too busy depending on these minimum wage laws that try to artificially make them more valuable instead of finding a way to make their labor more valuable, or because they aren't saving their money right or something.
What will people do if their wages drop? if working a full time job, 40hrs a week, all month doesn't cover the cheapest rent anywhere near work, why bother going to work at all? If your situation is hopeless, why kill yourself trying? Shouldn't work be worthwhile, rather then worthless?
How can you save when you live paycheck to paycheck? tell me which spendings are excessive, and how much that saving will do? I remember that old tv line, they should get health insurance instead of a smartphone! smartphone is a one time 400 dollar purchase with a 50 dollar monthly plan that covers all your communication, information, location, and some entertainment needs. It is an invaluable tool that can make all of their time more efficient. Insurance is 100s of dollars every month per person, *assuming you dont use it.* They'll just use the emergency room at our expense. Who cares about the future if your trying to make it past today? You got to focus. In a hopeless situation, instead of killing yourself for nothing, yolo sounds like a logical answer.
We should make work worthwhile. Otherwise crime and homelessness will be the result and youll simply spend good taxpayer dollars on enforcement and or welfare. Take away minimum wage and people will likely riot. I guess that is the liberitarian solution, but dont pretend like its free, especially when companies hire their own security vs masses make shift weapons. It will be like hong kong only ocean to ocean. Is that a fair price to pay for an idealistic solution when the problem can be solved easily with legislation and have the same end result? people will not quietly return to feudalism after tasting fairness. fair wages will be set one way or another, thus the economic consequences will happen regardless whether the method is liberitarian mass demands, or socialist policy reforms. the question is how much blood will we pay on the way to that end? Its not like picking up trash has no value, sanitation and food production are extremely important. Alot of people will need to do that, and those people need to eat.
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See the glory of one piece in a short anime music video (AMV)
Fun video, epic song yall probably never heard of. sounds like an irish heavy metal violin.
Epic video set to disturb's indestructible about the strongest man in the (one piece) world at the paramount war arc (which turned into a showcase of all the allstars in the world so far). It was the infinity war of one piece. Very fitting song.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
No, they had a similar atmosphere, with the same quantities. And they were lacking 1 VERY important thing, a billion years for more reactions to happen, and to continue to happen increasing complexity progressively. What they proved is step 1, and that's a big ol' step!
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The design in the lab was intelligently designed to be unintelligent. We didnt try to create life, we tried to recreate early conditions and see if life unintelligently arises.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Not necessarily DNA, but any replicating molecule. Although that isn't the "origin". There is no "origin. The big bang was the "origin". Or was it?
The origins of life are chemical. The component atoms are the most reactive. They are bound to react! Get them in a medium, like a fluid. Add some geothermal or solar heat. And watch them react. Well, watch them for several million or billion years.
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I see there arent too many one piece fans here. Maybe i can convince some.
One piece has been going on for a whole 20 years, and in that time it has become the 3rd best selling comic of all time. Not the best selling manga, comic, all of them.
It recently knocked off spiderman for #3, leaving only 100 year old superman #1 and also very old batman #2, above it... but at the rate one piece is going, it can surpass them in another decade or 2. And let me add that it is the only one in this category that was written entirely by 1 artist from page 1, chapter 1.
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@Christen
This conversation is about minimum wage, not welfare. None of this comes from tax dollars. You are completely confusing topics. I guess all my min wage points stand then?
Would you be interested in an actual debate on min wage?
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Fox 90%
MSNBC 10% they are equal.
Vox, slate, etc 0%
Breitbart, 150%
CNN 35%. They arent anti Republican, they just insist on giving trump the coverage they would give any president ... because its ratings gold, regardless of how much he overwhelms them. The news is honest, its focus is distracting from more important things.
NPR 50% but much higher quality
ABC, CBS, NBC 50%
Wall street journal, financial times, Forbes 50%
Many of the ones i listed at 50% do end up giving liberal policies better coverage, but thats because liberal policies are actually better in general.
Of course im not talking about all and most extreme left ideas, just a general average of policies.
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@Christen
May i remind you that minimum and living wages are for people who work, and it isn't meant to add up to living wage if they aren't working full time. So that welfare distraction was irrelevant. Many on government assistance are employed in places like Walmart. Raise the minimum wage, and the wont be a taxpayer burden. In this sense, welfare can be seen as a corporate payroll subsidy. We will be able to eliminate a giant chunk of welfare.
And what they spend their money on shouldnt even matter as this is not important as its their money and discretionary spending isnt part of the equation.
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@Christen
Have you ever heard of the marshmellow test? They took a bunch of kids and told them they can have a marshmellow now, or 2 later. They tested for self-control and it collerated to better outcomes later in life.
However, there was a follow up test. Same set up, except the kids never got 2 later. They were lied to and those kids rarely waited again. If your schools are shit, neighborhood services and after school activities non existent, and police stop and frisk you for going to the grocery store.... the yolo lifestyle becomes logical. They have no future. If you start at the bottom of a hole with the walls smeared with oil, is it logical to carry out a futile struggle? Sure the exceptional kid with zero friends will make it out of poverty, but that is not a reasonable requirement. Yo do only live once, and a wage slave is still a slave. I dont believe in equal outcomes but to pretend we have equal opportunity is a joke.
For example, not too long ago they were bashing poor people for having smart phones instead of health insurance. Even assuming they have the 1000$ newest phone and a 200$ plan, both gross overestimates, thats 3400 a year.... insurance costs about 300 a month before you even start paying a deductinle. Thats 3600 per year if you dont even use it... + a 5000$ deductible, co payments, donut holes, etc. The phone on the other hand replaces their watch, their computer, connects them to.family and employers. It can help organize their life, and provide some entertainment to unwind, a human necessity. Assuming i wasnt really sick, a smart phone is by far the smarter move then health insurance. And guess what, most poor people dont have the newest smart phone or a 200$ plan. Poor neighborhoods are covered in off brand mobile companies with 40$ plans and cheap model e smart phones. So its really much more cheaper for the phone, and this is before they even use their insurance once.
Sure, if they are buying 300$ shoes and clubbing every day thats on them, but most likely those are drug dealers who are doing very well for themselves economically. Just cause you see a small crowd of people in gold chains doesnt mean everyone in those many apartment projects lives like that. Most are tired after their work, long commutes, and lack of gold chains. They melt into their couch not becuase they are lazy but because they are tired, and cannot afford any extra luxuries like eating out or hiring a maid or even child care. After their physical work and long commute, they have personal responsibilites to take care of. Its alot easier to criticize from the outside.
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@Wylted
The fiber thing is definitely not a myth. The physics is simple. The undigestable fiber stays in the gut and draws water to it via simple oncotic pressure. As water is retained your poop becomes bulkier and softer making it easier to pass. You may have a system that can accomadate with minimal fiber, many do not.
I did google, and although you are correct on diabetes, as i explained, meat doesnt have much sugars... but all sources said it is poor for overall cholesterol in the long term. The only good results of the carnivore diet are short term and are entirely due to protein being very filling so you eat less overall calories. Over time the nutritional deficit and over abundance of limited nutrients will cause problems. Balance is key.
Crash Course metabolism & nutrition
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@Athias
Fair enough. My position on minimum wage is a bit unique. I'm not for a national 15 (or any flat rate), but one tied to the cost of living, and especially rent. More precisely, im not sure if low cost areas need a wage increase, but high cost areas absolutely need a boost and our economy will not survive without it. Although i want the wage to vary, I do want there to be a federal minimum set via algorithm weighing relative costs rather then a flat rate.
I'm assuming your view on minimum wage is there should be no min wage. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
With those definitions I would be willing to argue Pro on either:
a) Minimum wage must keep up with costs, or the economy will suffer/collapse. This is a point i frequently push and am very prepared to defend.
or
b) Minimum wage is beneficial to the poor. This seems to be a concern you focused on, I feel confident I can support that.
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@Wylted
Carnivore diet helps diabetes because meat is low in carbs and sugars. It is often high in fat so i would like a source regarding how it helps heart disease.
The fact that you are capable of sticking to such a restictive diet is commendable, but the constipation you mist experience going without any fiber must be a thing of legends.
I would not recommend any restrictive diet. A balanced diet full of whole, unprocessed foods is ideal. Its also alot tastier, more enjoyable and healthier then just meat or just veggies. As long as you exercise variety and moderation. Also exercise. There are no long term tricks.
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@HistoryBuff
Wow, you got teamed up on and tossed across every tangent. Everytime you nailed them on a point they would focus elsewhere and never admit anything.
This is why i like the limited rounds of the debate. If any of ya want a go on most any left wing policy, especially the economic ones, ill gladly do it via a debate :D
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@Athias
@Christen
Would either of you be willing for a debate on minimum wage?
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@Vader
Or give the smart debater an easy win by letting him kick the tall argument in the shins and make the whole thing collapse.
I dont think you have to respond to every single thing in order to win the debate. Especially when the actual title of the debate is quite narrow.
I do think i misunderstood your comment. :P
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@Greyparrot
You act as if nature has a will. If that was so, we would have been culled long ago. There is no magical check, it was simply coincidence due to species unable to plan for the future and learn the deeper secrets of their world. Eventually something will come to kill them, something they wont see coming. We can see it coming, whether we do something or not is a different question.
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@Barney
@Vader
@Trent0405
@Ragnar
Absolutely! I hate those sentence by sentence repliers. They make a conversation impossible to conclude, just gets longer and longer and more off topic. I usually just reply to their weakest point or the only one that stays on topic, but that took a lot of bad debates to figure that out.
@Trent
I usually leave most of the setting default, but if you ever want to join one of mine let me know and i'll lower it.
@SupaDudz
I don't see how dragging on sentences and building on length helps your points. If anything it could expose more weaknesses, and bore more readers. Sure if the concept is complex, a detailed explanation of sufficient length is needed. But most of these debates seem full of unnecessary formalities the likes I would expect in an official paper I would hand in at school or a corporate/government document.
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@Barney
@Vader
@Trent0405
@Ragnar
Absolutely! I hate those sentence by sentence repliers. They make a conversation impossible to conclude, just gets longer and longer and more off topic. I usually just reply to their weakest point or the only one that stays on topic, but that took a lot of bad debates to figure that out.
@Trent
I usually leave most of the setting default, but if you ever want to join one of mine let me know and i'll lower it.
@SupaDudz
I don't see how dragging on sentences and building on length helps your points. If anything it could expose more weaknesses, and bore more readers. Sure if the concept is complex, a detailed explanation of sufficient length is needed. But most of these debates seem full of unnecessary formalities the likes I would expect in an official paper I would hand in at school or a corporate/government document. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it stacks up with voters.
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Haha sometimes yeah, it takes a bit to get used to it. But it gets much better as the series and story grows
That last one was classic.
The art gets more refined, but its style is style the same, unique and organic.
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Ive noticed many debates here take a long form with drawn out definitions and prefaces. It may just be my small mobile screen size but it seems people do alot of extra work to make simple points. Every premise gets its own preface.
I understand the situational benefits of each of those, and the necessity of all those features in official academic interactions. But i was assuming this was serious but casual.
Is the long form style encouraged? Agreed upon before hand? Preferred by voters? Cause tbh, i usually skip reading those and would likely respond in a comprehnsive, but shorter form. Will that be frowned upon?
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@Athias
sorry for the distraction. the politics are foreign to you so that was a dead end.
No. You learn that the law of demand delineates that as the price of a commodity increases the quantity demanded decreases, not that people would stop buying. Also the law of supply and demand is a model which presumes homogeneity (all factors equal.) Hence, I inquired about these "variables."Because the price elasticity of demand in that industry is relatively inelastic. So hikes in wages can be extended to the final product, of which the AMA, for example, takes advantage.
as you said, the model presumes homogenity (all factors equal), my variables are those factors, and if they are unequal the model fails.
for example, no matter how much you hike the price of medicine, demand wont decrease until the people who need them die.
the price of medicines will not be affected as there are very few minimum wage people who contribute to the final product.
rent, nearly 50% of many peoples cost is mostly dependant on inherent land value and not any form of labor. thats a substantial win for low income people.
I think history has proven people will work under some terrible conditions if they dont have options. So claiming some invisible hand will set the right wages might work in a mom and pop tiny economy where there are nearly as many bosses as workers.... but not in the modern goliath economy.The "invisible hand" doesn't claim to "set the right wages;" it claims to facilitate free labor contracts where buyers and sellers of labor can establish arrangements to which each party willfully agrees.
As I said, history has shown people will willfully agree to whatever conditions they are presented with, including slavery. Corporations provide the bulk of employment and they dont negotiate. this is the wage, take it or leave. leaving means no food, so they take it.
as i said, this may work in an economy of all small mom and pop shops, but otherwise, this is just a logical theory on paper that falls apart in reality.
as costs go up, if wages stay the same, more and more people will be priced out of the economy, then the economy collapses. as fewer consumers remain in the economy, businesses will need to raise prices since they will be making fewer sales. theyll offer fewer products too.
logic can work both ways, but only one way is real, and minimum wage hikes have not shown any losses of jobs besides one industry, the restaurant industry. while other industries actually boomed and made up the difference.
results speak for themselves.
remember, these corporations are highly profitable. they aren't struggling, and a few have treasuries larger then some nations.
i'm all for small business exceptions if needed, but these goliaths crying victim is pathetic. they're just getting richer selling you idealistic propaganda.
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@Athias
A promise to tie this back to your question of the invisible hand in the very next post, but please humor me:
What are your feelings on trump's trade war with china?
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@TheRealNihilist
I love Evangelion, i mentioned it on my top 10 list.
But its ending isnt something to brag about.
One piece is the one show in any genre that I dont want to end. I dont want to find out about one piece, I dont want him to actually become the king. I want his adventure to actually go on forever. Only show I would say that about.
However, it is ending. currently he might reach the top of the pirate world at the end of the current arc, leaving just the world government, and maybe 1 rival pirate. His arcs have been getting deeper and longer, but they end, and the number he can squeeze in is getting limited. I hope he fits a bunch of good stuff in before it ends.
Amazing considering his small time beginnings. those silly early episodes feel like a totally different show.
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