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@secularmerlin
Some Christians supported the Taiping Rebellion, as it encouraged a 'form of Christianity.
Though I'm doubtful myself that such is the answer,
Doesn't seem worth it to spread a distorted message of one's religion.
Similar problem in my eyes is just giving people free Bibles, what with there being context needing explanation and what.
Can't say I disagree with Intelligence_06 on Religion should prepare us for a mentality, not faith to God.
But eh, I'm an atheist.
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@secularmerlin
Living or trying to live a righteous life, seems to me a decent way to cover all of the bases.
All one has to believe in is 'some sort of reckoning, based upon their actions on Earth.
And perhaps some people would only live a decent life, by dint of believing there was 'something more after death.
Wouldn't 'have to be a specific religion, I'd think.
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@secularmerlin
Oh I don't think you or Intelligence_06 is straw manning religion.
As I said, just a bit of tunnel vision on my part.
Devils Advocate though, I don't see why Pascal's wager would have to 'only refer to the Christian religion.
Plenty of folk who aren't religious, but instead spiritual, that might believe in some afterlife, and what karma might await them there.
Human's 'do often fear/respect karma.
As evidenced by the many different beliefs that 'have humans after death's effected by it.
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@secularmerlin
It's me Leaning from DDO, I'm not religious, Merlin.
I just dislike religious fellows being propped up as strawmen, or stereotyped all together into unfeeling Hell threaten'ers.
I'm fond of my family members who are religious, and a number of the religious people I grew up knowing in life.
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@secularmerlin
What then is the criteria for entry into heaven and what reason in that case would one have to subscribe to Pascal's wager? If the cost versus benefit of belief is not eternal torment versus bliss what exactly is being wagered?
Well, I suppose I had a bit of tunnel vision, and focused on the non-Christians going to Hell part, rather than the Pascal's wager part.
My family, as I take it view Christianity as the best path to living a 'good life, to being closer to God.
But I don't think they see it as a requirement to entering Heaven.
They have faith in a kind, loving, understanding, God, who possesses knowledge beyond their ken
That will in some manner answer for all that has occurred bad in the world,
That in some manner even the lost or fallen of humanity will be brought back into the light.,
Not dammed to some eternity of fire, smoke, darkness, and suffering.
Afterlife being a vague and mysterious thing, what.
I think they have faith that good people, even without faith in God, will be brought into the fold,
Even people who deny Gods existence.
They also don't profess to judge people's fate after,
Let God sort them out so to speak, I think.
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@Intelligence_06
Not all religious people believe that you have to believe in their faith to go to heaven.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So, what's your impression now, having read all of it?
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@Intelligence_06
Just a passing thought of mine, a 'bit related to the topic, I 'think.
I think religious laws came about due to our genetic predisposition allowing for them, as well as game theory.
I don't think a person 'completely wrong to think that, religion giving rise to the foundational elements of morality seems illogical.
After all, I think that without our biological presupposition for it, and game theory, we wouldn't have bothered inventing the laws.
But at the same time, those genes and those game theories were only able to be honed to a high extent by the 'existence of religious laws, and their indoctrination of moral habit.
I suppose one could try to argue a more pure carrot and stick approach, coldly rational, and disputing objective morality. But I think such a method flawed.
I think that Plato had a point, in The Republic, when he talked about the Noble Lie.
You define Utopia as
"Conflict=loss. Less conflicts=less losses. The closest we can come to a utopia is if there is as little conflicts as possibly can."
It sounds a bit like a political stance.
Maybe it's sleep deprivation, but somehow utopia seems to me, whatever one desires.
And people desire many different ideals.
Supposedly an ancient Norseman might view Valhalla as utopia, bloodshed, violence, feasting, and what else I forget.
Looked rather grisly in that Vinland Saga (manga) though.
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@n8nrgmi
I have mixed feelings.
I don't 'disagree strongly with boarding houses, so long as there are numerous conditions, such as Greyparrot mentioned in post #27.
Perhaps I'm not a very humane human being, I certainly don't do any volunteer work, and frankly I hate seeing the homeless, makes me feel terrible about their circumstances, but not terrible enough to help them really.
City feels less trashy, less dangerous when they 'aren't about.
. . . .
I feel worse about my view on account my second brother is homeless.
Solution to 'my problem would be more gated communities I suppose,
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Seems to me like he should win, my reasoning is vague, but my reasoning is that ever since his election, the Democrats have fumbled at the track in which they operated.
Though,
I'd say it seems to me like the media expects him to overwhelmingly lose, So I am unsure.
Personally,
I flip flop between Trump and a third party candidate.
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@Vader
I think that the daily zodiac readings in the newspaper are bunk, but they're fun to read, and like a fortune cookie can be worthwhile to consider your life from a certain perspective, or think on a piece of generic wisdom.
'Maybe when and where you're born can have a long term effect on a person.
The state of a mother, effects the state of a kid, to a 'degree I think.
And 'maybe a child's body adapts to the circumstance he is born into.
Grown dogs have winter coats.
I don't know any science about it though.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I've never read the Bible in full myself, tend to get bored.
I suppose part of the problem is being an atheist with not much interest in it.
Another problem likely is that I see it as too much of a puzzle to want to bother.
So many different translations, so many different words that in other languages/contexts/definitions change one's understanding of the Bible.
There's a reason why Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof says,
"If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack
To sit in the synagogue and pray,
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern Wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men
Seven hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.
If I were a rich man,
Yaha-deeuh-deeuh-deeuh-deeuh-deeuh-deeuh-dum,"
He realizes he'd have to study it, to understand it deeply, see?
I dunno, sometimes I look upon it a bit the way I do Buddhist koans, that is what very little I know about Buddhist koans.
Going by Wikipedia a koan "is a story, dialogue, question, or statement which is used in Zen practice to provoke the "great doubt" and to practice or test a student's progress in Zen."
I'm willing to suppose there's value in the Christian Bible,
but there's value in many writings, even non religious writings.
So onto my take on Genesis 1 (NIV),
To me it's just a story that people told each other and their children, to give 'some voice to that Who/What/Why/When/Where/How feeling humans get. Though maybe the story doesn't answer all those questions, or in so much detail.
It also seems to me that Preachers of the Bible are often spinning it according to their own take. And maybe that's not a terrible picture, if their flock is people like the Preacher themself, and the people listening exhibit a bit of doubt and reasoning themselves, without acting blindly and ending up cult like.
After all, there are people in the world, more keen on reason and wisdom than others, likely 'even more so in the older days when not everyone could read. Or when there weren't writing's around, didn't have the time or ability to memorize by ear and tongue.
Brings to mind Father Mapple a bit, from Melville's Moby Dick. Who's elevated pulpit was decorated with ship gear and backed by a wall painting of a seascape, as well as being reachable only by a rope ladder. And as I remember it, Father Mapple's preaching had a style of a rough sailor to it, which matched well with the lives and makeup of his flock.
Back to Genesis 1 though,
And this might be one of the factors that makes the Bible a formidable tool, for good or ill.
I think it'd be easy enough for even a pantheist to read Genesis 1, and interpret God as the personification of existence, perhaps further as a personification of life or control/direction.
Man certainly seems more able to control the world around him at his own will than all the other animals.
Still, to me, just a story, told by a people to express their culture and their view, in an artsy story. Maybe to illuminate or put focus on the importance of certain realities or cultural givens of a society. Such as marriage, monogamy, faithfulness, and how special your partner is. From a Christian viewpoint, well, from a Christian viewpoint thousands of years ago, when strife was all too common, when family sticking together and not having infighting was invaluable.
"24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame."
And to earlier post,
"The theme of the early universe starting as a vast expanse of water is a common one in many mythologies. Ancient Egyptian, Hindu, and even some Native American Folklore share this concept. This would seem to give credence to the idea that early mythologies, including the oral traditions from which the biblical tales are descended, either borrowed heavily from each other or share one or several common ancestor mythologies from which all take inspiration."
'Could be, though I'm more inclined to think that humans think alike. We see the same world for the most part, so our stories of it's formation come about mostly the same, just my take.
And to another part of your post, I don't know anything about Lilith really, or cut parts of the Bible.
Other posts make me think of comic books a bit, which reboot of Spiderman truly expresses the Hero and his philosophy best? (Joke)
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I respect Kyle Rittenhouse's foolish idealism, more than I respect the rioters foolish idealism.
Seems like self defense to me, though I don't think he should have been there in the first place,
I think his real hurdles are going to be related to the state laws he broke in carrying that gun not registered to him as a 17 year old.
Maybe I'm just not patriotic enough, but these mixed bags militia groups seem pretty darn stupid to me.
Still, what are you going to get if you defund the police.
I suppose I can understand a militia if it was a community where everyone agreed, but that doesn't seem likely in a city. Gated community would have better luck, and only 'in the gated community.
I also think he got lucky with the histories of the people he shot.
Seems likely to turn some of the public opinion towards him positively.
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@Vader
Warning shots seem a bad idea to me.
Warning Shots Are A Terrible Idea - Active Self Protection
Personally I'd rather just try not get 'into situations where violence is likely.
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@MisterChris
Hm, I don't think I have it together enough in any topics to make decent spur of the moment arguments on them.
Though I suppose that's what preparation is for, before debates.
Hm, then I'm not sure I 'feel strongly enough about any topics, to want to make a case for them, 'forcefully against another.
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@MisterChris
Well, if you find it a cesspool, for the better I suppose.
Do people on 'this site live debate much, DDO had that Google+ Hangouts link as I recall,
So I make the assumption this site did something similar.
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@MisterChris
Did you take part in online nationals tournaments yet, or still upcoming?
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@MisterChris
What's different in a live debate, other than the vocalization of one's written argument?
I suppose a live debate could show a persons quality, rather than that of his argument.
But what's the necessity of it I mean, unless the 'person, is what one is debating on.
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@MisterChris
Eh, I think he did.
But you know how it goes,
"History became legend. Legend became myth." - LOTR
Been plenty of people history, but we can't always see them clearly, like statues in the rain, their refined features blur.
Yet are famed enough, that reproductions abound, and what they may have been, 'is.
Or is what exists an idealization?
I think it's too bad when I glance at some older philosophies whether ancient China, or ancient Greece.
Philosopher we only know the nubs and gists of their ways.
"Do you know how many sages have been drowned under the waves of past eras?
Do you know that sagely words were spoken, but history was written?" - Ravages of Time
Still, some histories and words seem reasonably enough preserved.
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@BearMan
Well, I'd say more people are on board with it 'now, but I think there were a number of mixed messages early on.
People who claimed wearing a mask would 'prevent you from becoming infected, when the truth is it 'helps prevents the infected from infecting others.
And even 'after that misunderstanding was cleared up, some people figured that if they weren't sick, why bother wearing a mask to protect others from nothing,
'Then information came out arguing that some people can be carriers but not sick.
Leadership in America was also on the backfoot in leading by example, and even when the Democrats got on board with it, the 'way they did it, seemed more like political grandstanding and sneaking politics in a time of crisis, than an actual attempt to work with and convince their political counterparts.
Nor have the people who go about the argument to wear masks in a confrontational manner helped, throwing their weight around, jamming their fingers into people's chests and saying OBEY.
I wear a mask in public.
I think other people 'should wear masks,
I think that the law supports it,
Not sure I think people not on board yet are Absolute Morons, maybe just need to be convinced in the right manner, and need our government leading correctly.
I wouldn't say it's the 'only reason Americas done worse, us being slow on the uptake hasn't helped.
Not like it hasn't happened before,
And I can't say I'm 'fully convinced that masks help much, but I'm convinced most of society acts like they think that.
And I don't have any breathing condition, so, eh.
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"Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! If you had to like it, it'd be called the Museum of Acceptance! [the audience looks on] "Tolerate" means you're just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off! Jesus Tapdancing Christ!" - Mr. Garrison
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@Barney
I find a 911 conspiracy more reasonable than a Chupacabra, all a person has to do is reign back the 'scope of the 911 conspiracy for it to be reasonable, but even with that I don't believe the American government caused 911.
I'd imagine the humans noticed the asteroids before they hit, they just must not have had Bruce Willis around to blow it up Armageddon (1998).
But sure, could go with the belter theory as well.
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@Barney
Well, makes the asteroid part a suspension of disbelief I suppose.
That or it really was the human government, who launched asteroids that were closer to Earth, and blamed the Bugs.
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@Barney
A man can lift a rock easily, but what about a mountain.
There's also the case that maybe the asteroid tossing blasting method, needed something massive to be built in a fixed location to throws the asteroids. For instance a gigantic rail gun in space, I assume wouldn't have to be a literal giant gun, but a bunch of accelerators placed at different distances from one another, in the direction of their target.
I suppose I can understand the Bugs being able to watch the stars and track Earths path where it would be exactly.
Though it sounds like it'd take a long time for an asteroid to travel space, I'd think.
Maybe their biological computer brains could make accurate enough predictions for how much force exactly to launch an asteroid of X shape/weight and so on.
And maybe could calculate a biological blast close enough.
But distance is such a problem. A person can predicate a golf put or a pool ball, from short distance, but not so well long distances.
Tiny variables in the long term, effecting performance.
But then again, snipers seem to shoot their bullets accurately enough.
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@Barney
@ILikePie5
Might have been the book Armor by John Steakley, but I think it's just an idea that pops into people's heads a lot in science fiction.
Pretty sure the Terrans in StarCraft has the same plan to use the Zerg as a threat that way, until the Zerg started killing everyone.
I mean with no technology ever shown being used, easy to view them as something easy to take advantage of, as little threat on a galactic scale.
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@Barney
@ILikePie5
I remember in the book though, that the path to citizenship was open to 'anybody though, Did seem in the movie like an intentional attempt to weed out the people mentally unfit/unprepared for the infantry though.
I forget if there was such a scene in the book or not.
"The Federation makes the opportunity of Federal Service open to everyone, able-bodied or not. A doctor giving a medical examination says "if you came in here in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find you something silly to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe." The only impediment that can render one ineligible for federal service is if a psychiatrist determines that one cannot understand the oath of service." - Wikipedia, Terran Federation (Starship Troopers)
I'd be scared of fighting in the movie, following those strategies and tactics.
A lot of people have the theory the movie Bugs are a fake threat, and are used by the government as a means of controlling the population and giving everyone an enemy to rally against.
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@ILikePie5
I found the mercy killings interesting, I 'think I'd prefer to struggle and be eaten alive, but perhaps not, or perhaps I'd regret it.
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@BearMan
Maybe just bad luck?
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@ILikePie5
I liked that the recruiter guy was missing both of his legs.
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@ILikePie5
I thought it was a fun, cheesy, action, comedy. Seems to me it's aged well. Vastly different than the book. Really only liked the first movie.
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@Vader
When I was 20, my AFQT score was 92
GS or GI, 59
NO or AR, 58
MC, 58
AR or NO, 58
CS or SP, 56
EI or GS, 55
WK or AD, 72
AS or MK, 48
VE or SI, 69
PC or WK, 61
MK or EI, 52
Not great, not terrible, I 'think.
I don't really know how to read test results.
I do think people overemphasize their importance sometimes though.
My eldest brother often complains that college is there to teach you how to pass tests, rather than 'learn.
And many people scores can vary I'd think, do well on some days, poorly on others.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Because America is politically divided at the moment, 'probably Trumps fault.
And his handling of the Corona virus really hasn't helped.
Personally I'd go with option 3, but wear a mask anyway.
It's my opinion the left goes about their fight against Trump in the wrong fashion, the only thing that helps them is Trumps. . . bizarre eccentricity.
Seems to me they would have been better trying to velvet glove a number of Republicans and opposing Trump, instead they went straight up against him, commendable principles, but seems foolish practicals to me (Though I'm a know nothing of politics).
I don't particularly 'dislike Biden, but I don't like him either.
I look back to the past election, and I think, hm, pretty sure one of the reasons people voted against Hillary was they saw him as part of the establishment. Biden's got the same problem. And much like last election, they're harping 'much on we 'must defeat Trump.
When they'd be better off saying what they'll do for the country, though they 'are doing that.
I think they're seeing the situation too much from their own biases and opinions.
I think a 'significant amount of the population has a different viewpoint than them.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Oh!
Sluggy Freelance!
Nice!
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@Intelligence_06
If a person can't be born evil, can a person be born good?
People can have 'supposedly evil genes/nature/tendencies,
But depending on how they grow up, be good people.
. . . Anyone ever watch the Genetic Opera? Weird movie,
But I bring it up to say
"You, I've mistaken for destiny
but the truth is my legacy is not up to my genes.
True, though the imprint is deep in me
it will always be up to me.
Up to me."
For intents and purposes, practicalities and generalities, rules of thumb and pragmatism. Though.
I suppose some people could claim that a person could be born evil.
One see's that in fantasy often enough, 'evil races, with a tendency toward evil.
Rambling a bit.
. . .
Mm, no I take that back, I'll change my opinion to everyone is born neutral, but some people are 'very likely to go one way or another based upon their nature/nurture.
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@SkepticalOne
Faith's a justified belief in itself, to my thinking anyhow.
People can possess many beliefs, based at least partially upon faith I think.
And contradictions aren't an end all be all I think.
Courts and debates have two sides of a case being argued. And sometimes there's parts that don't clear up, but remain in contention, but a decision is reached none the less.
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@SkepticalOne
Sigh, you press my memories farther than I care about really. . .
Still,
There 'is some real history in the Bible,
If I can believe in American history now, I could believe in the Bible back then.
There are Biblical lessons that taught practicality in life,
If I can believe in game theory now, I could believe in Biblical practicality back then.
There are parts of the Bible that contain humility, kindness, empathy.
If I can believe in nature and nurture, humanity and habit, now, I could believe in those parts of the bible then.
There are religious families which lead through example, who show themselves to their children, as people worthy of their trust in them.
If I can understand human nature, patterns, and such now, I could believe in my parents as worthy of my trust then.
Though I'm an atheist now.
My faith back then was not unjustified, did not appear from nowhere.
It was. . . Bah, I'm rambling.
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@SkepticalOne
"Religious faith and trust are not synonymous. That's an equivocation."
Mm, yeahh. . See the thing is, when I do a Google search for synonyms of faith, one of the matches is trust.
And when I do a Google search of synonyms of trust, one of the matches is faith.
. . .
A persons inability to articulate themselves and the reasons that they have faith or trust in someone or something, doesn't mean to me there's no reason for their trust or faith.
To me it leaves up the possibility that they just don't have a talent for articulation, that or they just don't have their experiences and reasons too strongly thought out and writ.
"there is nothing that cannot be believed on faith"
I don't really get what you're saying there.
I could understand it well enough if you were claiming that, there is nothing that can be believed on faith, though I'd disagree.
Maybe you're saying, there is nothing that can be disbelieved on faith?
But that seems pretty easy for me to disagree with as well,
So I still don't really get what you're saying by,
"there is nothing that cannot be believed on faith"
"gish gallop wall of words" . . . ? . . .
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@SkepticalOne
Hm, I don't quite get what you're saying in post #18. . .
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@Stephen
Oh jah, I was totally saying the human mind is a dead piece of wood, how insightful you are in reading my arguments.
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@Intelligence_06
Hm, you made a post titled "Facts are fundamentally just feelings", though. . .
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@SkepticalOne
Eh, maybe not 'the basis, but 'a chair leg is 'one of the bases for the chair standing up, even if there are other legs.
Some people just identify strongly with one reason or another.
If my eldest brother had been charged with the crime of trying to murder him, my faith in him would be a strong 'reason for me personally, in believing that he would not commit such an action.
Sure I could be wrong,
Sure you can't much expect other people to accept your beliefs just because you believe them.
Sure, I hold such a belief because of positive and loving interactions with him.
And sure maybe my opinion could change with enough evidence.
But the faith would remain a strong basis, I think.
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Not to the individual, it seems to me.
Seems to me that faith doesn't always appear out of nowhere, it usually occurs out of some persons experiences in life, or way in which they see life.
Reminds me a bit of instinct.
Not that I'd say follow every instinct you have, or that instincts can't be tricked, false, or misleading.
But instinct is worth paying attention to, I think.
But maybe flawed dichotomy in my example.
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@oromagi
Oh, why do you disagree?
I'm willing to listen.
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Well, going by merriam webster, one of the definitions of fact is.
"A piece of information presented as having objective reality"
Seems to me one of the more common definitions really. Information, isn't really a feeling though.
Ben Shapiro's even well known for saying "Facts don't care about your feelings."
Sure you can argue against that, though it becomes semantic reasoning eventually, I think.
Not that it's not 'worth doing, or can't teach a person a bit of humbleness when using facts,
"1500 years ago, everybody 'knew that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody 'knew that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you 'knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll 'know tomorrow." - MIB
But plain speaking, I think of facts as what's Reasoned/Recognized as true.
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If a community doesn't wear masks, mingle in crowds, or drink bleach, it's too bad.
But even whatever I recall Trump saying so far, the people who make such decisions of their own free will, bother me more than Trump.
I don't like Trump, but the current left is still too far left for me.
Most I might do is vote for a third party, but not Biden at the current time.
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@TheUnderdog
It seems to me a reasonable choice for someone who wants to bang other people, but avoid having kids.
Though there's other methods to lower the chance of having kids, just not as surefire maybe.
I think a person would 'really want to avoid having kids though.
Maybe better to put some sperm aside on ice, in an accredited medical service though, if one changes their mind later.
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