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@3RU7AL
Everything you mentioned as "cultural issues" are symptoms of POVERTY.
In part, I think so. Entirely, I think not.
How do you propose we "fix" these "cultural issues"?
I don’t know. I haven’t studied solutions.
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@3RU7AL
Isn't that simply discrimination based on skin-tone (not specifically "genetics")?
That would be the direct factor in the study because that's what is being observed by the police officers who are making the decisions to pull people over. I would imagine that the underlying factor would be some in-group out-group thing going on. Though, I'm not entirely sure about that. The role genetics would play doesn't seem to be significant. Perhaps only incidental in the sense that melanin content is traceable to genotypes, then genetics would be a factor, I guess.
It also true that there are problems within the POOR community that are contributing to adverse outcomes. Issues like births out of wedlock and cultural problems discouraging educational achievement (i.e. "acting smart") should also be of "public interest".
Blame must be shared across the identities or things will be interpreted as hostile to specific identities. I'm sure you have observed what I'm talking about. I would imagine that poor Americans would also respond defensively here to an assertion of cultural problems, if people identified that way. Though, there's not much class consciousness in contemporary American politics. Public policies addressing cultural issues should be specific to the problems sought to be addressed and not have any class or race based criteria imo.
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@n8nrgmi
Honestly was hoping he'd die from Covid-19.
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@Theweakeredge
I'd imagine the rate's lower largely because of fear of deportation, and that criminal aliens get deported and the one's that remain in the United States aren't the criminal type.
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@sadolite
No source then. Just baseless nonsense.
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Racism is real and causes a substantial adverse impact on a significant fraction of American citizens. It is therefore a significant public policy concern. Data on pull-over rates suggests that race is a significant factor in causing a driver to be pulled over. ( https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200507094621.htm ) Data on resume response rates suggest that having a black sounding name significantly decreases one's odds of landing a job. ( http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/Whitening%20MS%20R2%20Accepted.pdf ) Data from hospitals suggests than black babies die significantly more often when they're under the care of white doctors ( https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3315 )
It also true that there are problems within the black community that are contributing to adverse outcomes. Issues like births out of wedlock and cultural problems discouraging educational achievement (i.e. "acting white") should also be of public interest. It's a shame that the debate ends up boiling down to finger pointing between the factions at the expense of real progress.
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@n8nrgmi
GoP is disconnected from reality on the election results.
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@sadolite
Economics 101. Printing worthless fiat currency based on no value causes hyper inflation. The whole house of cards will come tumbling down. You, like govt think you can just print trillions of dollars or worthless currency every year until the end of time. So that is why you ask where do I get my information. You have no understanding of how wealth is created and how the federal reserve is supposed to function.
When one asks for a source and it isn't provided, the inference is that the other person is making things up or is concealing a weak source. I asked for a source and you didn't provide it - Twice.
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@Dr.Franklin
nah bro
Very convincing.
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@Dr.Franklin
no I didn’t lie
Yeah, you did.
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@TheUnderdog
Saying that someone is racist because they believe that whites are smarter than blacks is like saying someone is sexist because they believe men are physically stronger than women. If it’s true, then it’s not racist or sexist to say either claim. It would be a fact at that point.If someone said that gays and bisexuals are more likely to get HIV, provided the source they put is reliable, this isn’t homophobic to say. It is a fact.
OK. Start picketing that blacks have low IQs. Get a loudspeaker and say that they're genetically inferior, that the slavery really wasn't that bad, and that owning a black slave is like owning a dog. Deny that racism has any adverse impact on black people and say that their lots in life are caused by genetic deficiencies.
That's basically what that guy did here. Now why would you do something like that? It's not dispassionate. It's an expression of racial hatred. Ergo, it was hate speech.
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@n8nrgmi
Having COVID-19 is more dangerous than driving a car. Why would we go to a lifetime comparison? It is not meaningful or actionable in everyday decision making.l to look at it that way.
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@n8nrgmi
~38,800 deaths in 2019 from car accidents
~300,000 deaths in 2020 from COVID-19
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@TheUnderdog
I'm afraid it wasn't just like that. If the post had been dispassionate, then it would be. But it was part of a larger pattern of behavior of the user consistently and repeatedly spouting anti-black propaganda. So, in that respect, it was an expression of racial hatred which had become excessive, apparently to the point of actionability under the CoC according to the mods.
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@TheUnderdog
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@Dr.Franklin
You lie. That's all you're doing. Making up shit all day, talking out of your ass. Nobody believes you.
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Another killer was his claim that he would beat Joe Biden. Of course, the MSM quickly came to his defense: he did not say “beat Joe Biden,” but said he would “be Joe Biden.” I thought that was worse; who was he, then, if he was not Joe Biden? The Grinch? The amalgam of the Three Stooges? Something like that.
First election conspiracy theory is simple: No one can describe why, in the string of the last 14 presidential elections [back to FDR in 1944] Ohio has backed the elected President in all but 2 elections
No theory has been presented here. What is this supposed to be? If Ohio didn't vote for the winner, then the election was not legitimate?
Second election conspiracy: In PA, 2016, there were some 200K mail-in ballots; the first time PA flirted with mail-in ballots. IN 2020, PA had 2.5M mail-in ballots, a >100-fold increase.
Assuming your numbers are correct, that is a 12.5-fold increase, not a ">100-fold increase."
Of course, all lazily point to Covid-19 imposed restrictions, but the same restrictions applied to OH, FL, and other states coincidentally won by Trump, and states who have longer experience with mail-in balloting, and who had not near the troubles PA had with handling their over-bearing increase in this ballot type. What makes this conspiracy particularly troubling for Democrats to explain is why, with all the troubles of PA’s novice effort, their percentage of erroneous, discarded ballots dropped significantly from 2016, which was in the 20th percentile of erroneous ballot discards, whereas 2020,
with a 100-fold increase in mail-in ballots,
The fact that you're repeating the figure shows that it is no typo.
the erroneous, discarded ballots dropped to just 3% of the total number of ballots cast. Explain that phenomenon, Democrats. It also baffles statistical probability.
There were changes in election law, and the supreme court of PA made it so ballots could no longer be rejected for non-matching signatures. Even if the same ballot rejection rate from 2016 was applied to 2020, that would only result in ~30,000 rejected mail in ballots. Even if you add every one of those 30,000 votes to Trump (or take them away from Biden), it's not sufficient to close the gap between Trump and Biden, as Biden won PA by 81,660 votes. https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/story/news/2020/10/15/how-many-mail-ballots-rejected-pennsylvania/3651762001/ The point is moot, and further so by the fact that Biden would still win even if PA flipped to Trump.
Are we beginning to see a trend?
Yes, we are. Post-truth politics. Alternative facts.
I am purposely leaving off my researched sources. I want you to find them yourselves.
Great way to build trust.
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@sadolite
Really, where are you getting your "information" ?
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@sadolite
The media is not a fact based source of information nor is the govt. Both have proven beyond all doubt top me that they are not.
Is Trump's twitter feed your gospel? Perhaps word of mouth and the conspiracy rants on YouTube. Maybe it's a that one rambling alcoholic who comes by every now and then raving up nonsense. Really, where are you getting your "information" ?
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@n8nrgmi
Yeah, thankfully we have separation of powers. We'd probably have dictator Trump. The widespread fraud theory makes little sense. It's probably true that some people sent in multiple ballots when they got them mailed to their house, but I doubt it happened on a scale large enough to alter the outcome of the election. The theory doesn't make any sense because there's insufficient motivation for people to do that. It's hard enough to get people to vote in the first place because there is no personal benefit to doing it. Voting's a sacrific for a cause. I'm wondering if a lot of Trump voters didn't vote because they didn't want to go to the polls and didn't trust mail-in ballots because of everything Trump was saying about them. Maybe that actually caused him to lose lol.
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@sadolite
Trump would have presented good evidence. He didn’t, because he didn’t have any. Absence of evidence is evidence if absence when a thorough search has been conducted by a well organized and well funded, highly motivated entity. When no good evidence was found, Trump’s arguments started to become “well we don’t got good evidence but we can’t rule out the possibility that the election was stolen and if we can’t verify that it wasn’t stolen then we simply assume that it was.” Too bad because election results stand unless proven otherwise. The burden of proof is on the challenger, not the presumptive winner.
That, and the fraud allegations are coming from a man who has a long history of fraudulent and dishonest conduct. Trump is a liar through and through. His track record proves this. Any allegations he makes shouldn’t be taken seriously, and I don’t think that you’re so foolish and naive to actually believe Trump’s bullshit. What’s far more likely is that you’re simply doing the same thing Trump is - Being a sore loser. Reminds me of childhood memories of kids falsely alleging that their opponent cheated or got lucky in some pathetic attempt to save their egos. Biden is the better man, and he won fair and square. Get over it.
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@bmdrocks21
The racism bogeyman will likely continue at least for the rest of our lives. Race has dominated American politics since the founding fathers, and it's beneficial for politicians and certain interests to divide us along racial lines. If you read about George Wallace's campaign, you will see that's exactly what he was doing. Racial tensions will likely be fomented intentionally or just through happenstance. I'm pretty pessimistic about it. I don't think MLK's dream of integration will ever become a reality here. We're as divided as ever, and just looking at where people choose to live and send their kids to school, it seems that people don't want racial integration for the most part. They go to the marketplaces, workplaces, and other public spaces and tolerate it because they have to in a multiracial society, but when they have a choice I see what they're choosing to do. Actions speak louder than words, I guess.
I guess there is an allegation of collective misconduct when people scream racism. I'd take most of it with a grain of salt, and I'm not a believer in collective responsibility. If I didn't do it, then it's not my fault.
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@bmdrocks21
Yes, I was reading from the wrong lines on the table. That's my bad. These data compel me to be more open to the idea. It is something that I think should be further studied. If I were a researcher in academia though, I'd definitely be too concerned about my career to touch it with a ten foot pole. Kindof wondering about more recent data on the Flynn effect and the narrowing of the black-white IQ gap since 2000. There may be new data.
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@TheUnderdog
The guy got banned for unwarranted systemic invective, including hate speech, personal attacks and other vitriol.
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@bmdrocks21
I think that it is an issue that isn't definitively proven one way or the other, but it seems the limited evidence available shows that there is a significant genetic component to intelligence. And genetics vary quite a bit based on the geography of your ancestors.
Yes, that's what the evidence suggests. However, if we're talking about the specific causes of an observed gap between two groups of people, those causes may be nature, nurture, or a combination thereof.
What Minnesota study are you speaking of? I have heard of the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, which found that both environment and genetics play a role in IQ.They took kids of different races and had them be adopted by affluent White parents.They found that the IQ scores were highest for those with two White parents, then Black/White, then Asian or Indigenous American, and the lowest was two Black parents.
Yes, that's the correct study. If you look toward the second table you with the data adjusted to take in to account the Flynn effect, you will see the age 7 IQ gap at 1 point (negligible in my view) and the age 17 gap at 4 points. My take on that is that by age 17 some of the black kids would start to get wrapped up in their black identities and be adversely impacted by the anti-educational aspect of black culture. (i.e. "acting white") I know that's just speculation, but it's my best guess, and I think a better explanation than a genetic one because the latter explanation does not explain the same IQs at age 7.
That's my take on it, and it doesn't rule out anything genetic necessarily, just that whatever's going on is probably negligible. I mean, OK like 1 IQ point (or even 4) isn't going to be some crazy huge impact on earning power in a lifetime.
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@Theweakeredge
Guy's been talkin' out of his ass left and right for years. None of it should be taken seriously. Shoot down the bullshit IMO.
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@Dr.Franklin
Those lawsuits were thrown out because they were without merit. There is no vast anti-Trump conspiracy within the judiciary. That's just more lies. Be a better human.those lawsuits were thrown out because the system hates trump
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@Dr.Franklin
there is enough
No, there isn't. 50/51 lawsuits thrown out. No good evidence. No good arguments. That's why. If there was good evidence, then that wouldn't have happened. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/12/08/trump-and-the-gop-have-now-lost-50-post-election-lawsuits/?sh=dfc58d429606
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@HistoryBuff
So why do you still believe something happened when the people making those claims have been proven wrong every time they step into court?
They don't believe it. They'd rather lie to try to save face than to admit that they've been beaten. There's nothing more to it than that.
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@sadolite
We both know the truth. The difference between us is simple - You just refuse to acknowledge it. There is no genuine dispute.
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@sadolite
I will never believe Biden won fair and square given all the irregularities and out right fraud that I have seen. You will never convince me that there is nothing to see here. Nor will the courts because they refuse to even hear the evidence or listen to testimony from people under oath.
You know the truth but refuse to acknowledge it. You are already convinced that Biden won, and require no further convincing. This is just posturing and stubborn bluster. Trump will be gone and there is nothing you can do to stop it. You have lost.
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@Dr.Franklin
Not enough to change the outcome.
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@drafterman
Lol yep.
The State of Texas’s motion for leave to file a bill ofcomplaint is denied for lack of standing under Article III ofthe Constitution. Texas has not demonstrated a judiciallycognizable interest in the manner in which another Stateconducts its elections.
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@Theweakeredge
No idea who's doing it until they do it. What percentage of folk is doing it? IDK. If I were to throw out a number I'd say maybe 25% wouldn't surprise me.
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@thett3
Politics and religion can be changed. There is hope in that way. And they usually aren’t discussed much unless both people are on the same side of things. (there’s usually some hint about it that gives the green light) So, in that way it’s kindof an invisible difference I guess I’m probably oblivious to in a lot of situations. When people get together and start praying before eating then it starts to become awkward lol. Race can’t be changed, and it’s a very visible difference. I can walk in to a church nobody’s gonna know. I can’t get gas at the cheapest Arco in Memphis without sticking out like a sore thumb.
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, I’ve read about it and I did the test which showed significant implicit bias. People have to train themselves to stop thinking like that, but it seems to be the default way for most people. I’m thinking it may be hopeless.
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@ethang5
I’m beginning to think that anti-racism political correctness is just a big lie and that pretty much most everyone’s racist, or at least racially ethnocentric. People talk the talk on racism, but they don’t walk the walk. Look at where people choose to live or where they choose to send their kids to school. I see it around, I see it here, I see it everywhere. I’m beginning to think that racism and ethnocentrism aren’t things that can be whittled down to the point where they don’t have unacceptable adverse impacts on a lot of peoples lives. Perhaps it’s human nature and no matter how hard people try they can’t stop being the way they are.
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@n8nrgmi
Just more frivolous post election litigation from the losing side. It will fail like the other cases.
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@sadolite
Remember I said this:
I want to see Trump play every legal card he's got, get owned in the courts, and finally be dragged kicking and screaming from the white house.
So far he has not disappointed, but I’m still holding out for the day Biden shows up and evicts his ass.
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@Danielle
He might be talking about people "despising immigration" insofar as insisting nations should be homogenous when the U.S. isn't and arguably never was.
Look -
The US is far less homogenous now than it was in the past. That there has been a substantial increase in diversity is an objective fact.
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@thett3
When they say America is a nation of immigrants or has a long history of immigration, the stated fact forms a premise that can support various conclusions. (e.g. ergo it is hypocritical for America to oppose immigration or ergo immigrants are your people.) The conclusions aren’t stated because the proponents of the argument know the arguments are weak and are concealing that weakness. America is a sovereign nation and has every right to exert strict control over its borders and to set immigration policy, and is no less entitled to do so simply because there was immigration in the past.
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@bmdrocks21
genetic difference's effects on group performance
A lot of the studies “proving” that are funded by the Pioneer Fund, which is essentially a pile of racist money intended to use science to put lipstick on a pig. Unfortunately there’s a lack of genuinely academic research on the subject due to ethical concerns and also due the political situation making it a “third rail” for researchers. Though, observations like the Flynn effect and the Minnesota twins study suggest to me that any genetic thing that might be going on is not a very substantial factor comparatively.
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@Danielle
How do I tell that there's racism and bigotry as opposed to merely ethnocentric white fragility? The conduct appears to be mostly defensive in response to a perceived allegation of group responsibility rather than some unprovoked rant about black people.
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@bmdrocks21
Your defensive response toward the white guilt narrative should help you to understand why taking responsibility doesn't gain popular traction in groups. Nobody wants to take the blame. The reality is that the conditions within the black community are, to a certain extent, attributable to racism but are also attributable to other factors within the black community itself. I do think that out of wedlock births is a significant problem. Consider, however, that the children born in to those situations have done nothing to cause them. They are not to blame for that in any way. They are also not to blame for the disparities in education funding which are attributable to the property tax collections. Housing in black communities is of lower market value and the property taxes used to fund schools in those areas is consequently lower. They will grow up within a culture that, to a certain extent, glorifies criminal lifestyles, rejects education and where credibility is given by showing a readiness to resort to violence. It is reasonable to expect a significantly greater number of adverse outcomes when you run children through that environment. Yes, there is choice, but there is also pressure to make certain choices. The responsibility that we should expect people to take for making certain choices should be mitigated by the pressures people are faced with in given situations. As to whatever adverse impacts racism may be having, it is something that should be tackled. Racism does effect outcomes. It isn't entirely clear to me to what degree internal vs external problems are causing adverse outcomes, but in the end it doesn't really matter.
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@Danielle
You're right that you don't have to prove anything to me. Nobody has to do anything here if they don't want to.
I'm assuming that these are accurate working definitions here: (the underlined portion)
BigotA person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. https://www.lexico.com/us-english/definition/bigotRacistA person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/racist
He may very well be a bigot and a racist. Those attitudes did not disappear when they became socially unacceptable. They simply went in to hiding, and what we're seeing here may be "dog-whistle" racism. That is a good and plausible explanation, but it is merely that. His conduct is also consistent with having a white racial identity and responding defensively to perceived narratives suggesting white guilt and what have you. The latter explanation for his conduct is not bigoted or racist. It is ethnocentric. (Edit: I'm not a fan of ethnocentrism or tribalism btw. I think they are divisive attitudes that weaken us as a whole)
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@Danielle
he is indeed a flat out bigot
Prove it. I read everything he wrote in this thread, and I don’t see it.
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@Danielle
I’ve read a lot of his stuff. It usually comes across more like some rabble roused racial tribalism than full on racist bigotry like mgtowdemon. Maybe it’s the exhausting day and 2 hours of floor sleep I got, but I just don’t have any passion about it.
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