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@ludofl3x
Knowing all things means he knows everything. If an action is not performed, then he doesn't know about it since this thing has not happened yet. He can predict the future but he doesn't know our freewill choices. That is the whole reason why humans were created. Someone to choose to love him or not. If he knew who would be saved, then why bother dealing with those people and just work with the ones who will love him in the end?
He also knows the future as a whole since he will have his plan carried out, but as an individual basis, we choose our fate. God will only direct. I do not believe he will jump into our freewill EXCEPT only to make sure his plan will be done. This example is done with Pharoah and the Exodus where God hardens Pharoah's heart after he was willing to let the Israelites go. There was so much to be shown in his plan for Christ and the church through the Exodus that he had to make sure it ran according to plan.
Orthodoxy and the Bible are usually different. For the new testament, please give an example for what you are referring to.
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@Stephen
It may sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but God knows our thoughts and intents, NOT our actions. I believe that God can see every possible future depending on our actions. The book of Revelation is talking about the future as a whole and not us individually.
God had a plan through Abraham and if he couldn't follow thru with God's directions, then his plan would not be fulfilled. Abraham wasn't calling a bluff, he was given orders and he was going to do it, knowing that God will make things right because God loved Abraham. Did God allow Isaac to be slain? Obviously not, AND there was a ram in the thicket not too far off. God even did not plan to have Isaac killed. It was only a test for Abraham.
You view of a brutal God demanding the blood of our children comes from a weird perspective and this proves my point of a tainted view of God will then skew your interpretation of the Bible. There was no malice or intent of malice in God's test to Abraham and Abraham was willing to perform the action out of respect to God. I agree that Job's kids were treated as a dime a dozen, but it's also possible that Job's kids were adults and wicked. There is no reference of how old they were and if they were righteous like Job.
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@Stephen
@b9_ntt
@Best.Korea
Are you referring to the idea that he begged for the life of his nephew Lot but not for his son Isaac?
I will be offline for the weekend, so I will answer the question above now. If I'm wrong on your question, then forgive me.
You are referring to the sacrifice mentioned in chapter 22 of Genesis. God tempted Abraham and asked for his son as a sacrifice. I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him. Two reasons for this logic. 1. Isaac was a promised son that was supposed to carry the lineage of Abraham. The other is that Abraham tells his servant when they get to the mountain "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." He knew Isaac was coming back down with him. Also, when Isaac asked about the animal to be sacrificed, Abraham replied, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering".
Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions. We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out.
I expect a firestorm from Stephen but I will have to get back next week for it.
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@Stephen
Have you been slighted by a priest or pastor? You're responses are very specific.
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@IlDiavolo
youre too inmersed in your faith that it clouds your understanding. Youve got to know I was raised in a catholic family and later on in protestantism, so I know what I'm talking about. Sometimes it's good to hear the reason because emotions are not trustable.
The problem with the catholic or protestant church (they are the same) is that they all endorse false doctrine. False doctrine is always made to cover some sort of sin. I will let you know that your confusion or frustration comes from that, and not God. I agree there are things in the bible that are questionable, possibly contradictory, and mysterious but that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
Also, mankind has used the bible as a weapon to dominate. To demand others follow it and not themselves. Religion ahs been used worldwide to control masses, to suck money out of people and to engage in war. It's pathetic.
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@Stephen
I don't remember saying that. Maybe you can remind me?
Oops! I looked through the posts and you did not say that. I was referring to Zed's post of "So gaps in our understanding of material processes, are no longer filled with often fantastical hypotheses." I messed that one up. Sorry.
Opinion and a poor example of people living without religion. and your example could- if there is any truth to it - could apply to a couple who are married and have a family.
I suppose your opinion is as valid as any other. But my point is that if you look at a serious relationship with your own standards and not biblical standards, then you will justify bad treatment and divorce, thus breaking up a family, which is a bad thing. This is the same for anyone with or without religion. They need biblical standards to keep themselves in check. Have a standard to follow, but if your standard is however you feel that day, it won't work. I'm also not saying that any relationship will break without a bible in the house. I'm saying that if any relationship stays intact, it is going to be by biblical standards, whether they mean to follow it or not.
So the natives tribes of Papua New Guinea and native tribes of the Amazonian rain forest are in in disarray and are deteriorating because they have never heard of Jehovah?
Really? You are going to use them as a wonderful example of civilization? I said their society is lacking without biblical principle. There is a reason why they are still primitive and why European influence has nearly occupied the globe. It has been done through biblical principles. These principles will always help a society, not tear it down. If the Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or Russian countries thrive, it is because they endorse the principles and not just the bible itself.
Not in my opinion. And god has given me no reason to love him.But to emphasize again. My problem is with the scriptures. I don't have a problem with Christians or that they have a faith. Its what they have faith in that interests me.
Your views are pretty unique. I asked you this before, but what is your religious background?
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@oromagi
@TheUnderdog
@ADreamOfLiberty
Well, I thought this thread was going to turn controversial, but Oromagi seemed to hit the nail on the head.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
@YouFound_Lxam
They start teaching these kids this nonsense because no adult would ever choose to start following religion unless they were going through some kind of personal crisis. How old were you when you first went to church? Didn’t you feel indoctrinated?
Looks like IwantRooskie is crying about his time as a child. This tells me the problem was not the church, but rather the parents.
Tell us about your parents, Rooskie.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Are you stupid?
No, I didn't go to college.
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@Greyparrot
(using mind's eye)
Hmmm. . . I still see Joe Biden sleeping.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
@Sir.Lancelot
I agree!! Brother D, show us the true light!!
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@IwantRooseveltagain
No, I wanted to show them how college students end up wasting their parents money if they have no drive.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Apparently you did.
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@Stephen
Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?
Yes.
Examples please?
Without getting too philosophical, 21st century logic tries to do away the bible and God, like you said. The problem is the bible and God is the way we thrive as a community the best. Take that away and the community deteriorates. So, for an example, if you think it's okay to sleep with whoever you deem worthy, then you degrade yourself and your future wife. You don't take it seriously and with that same frame of mind, your marriage, even with the best intentions, will fail. Families split, children are fatherless, so on and so on. Need another?
I don't understand that. can you expand?
We will focus on the disgusting behavior of catholic priests. We focus on the money grabbers like TV evangelists. What we fail to see is the actual message they pretend to give. We use those examples and then shroud EVERYTHING biblical as bad. When in truth, people are selfish in general and those few that were bad need to be isolated as hypocrites, not the message. Expanded enough?
Then you need to study "his ways" a bit closer. He is a vile , vengeful, god of war and has been from day one. And he only has an eye for his "chosen people" ; Israelites, and look how he treats them throughout the Old Testament.
This goes along with my point above. When you have a tainted outlook on this subject, you tend to isolate only what you want to see. I agree it seems that God is a heartless one during the old testament, but read the prophets and psalms. He does have mercy and kindness for those that love him.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Would you want another source?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
ignorant
Maybe
racist
Nope
daddy
Every one of them :)
with a high school diploma
Truest thing you have said all week.
and a low income.
Ha! Wrong again and I have NO college debt.
My kids have college degrees. Your kids will likely rent from my kids. Because their daddy was a dummy.
I am teaching my children how to be productive and think on their own. You want to know what your kids will say to my kids when they meet them? "You want fries with that?"
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@IwantRooseveltagain
CRT is NOT taught in second grade or even 12th grade. It is a college level class.
Partially correct. The course is for college students, but the tenants are still instituted throughout the primary grades.
Teaching grade schoolers about slavery and the civil war and Jim Crowe is completely appropriate.
In it's entirety, I agree.
You are ignorant.
Fact checked: False.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Sorry dream, I concede.
It sure was fun though!
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@Stephen
If we go by your own unfounded logic, then why the need for a "test of faith" in the first place? It was a test of faith , wasn't it?
Good question, assuming that we understand the mind of God.
21st century logical thinking instead of blind and ignorant faith.
Fine. Run your little rabbit trail of logic. My brother was the same. Dignified. So intelligent. So educated. and was out to unintentionally destroy his life and others with the "21st century logic". After a few years of beating his head against the wall, he came to his senses. He didn't become a Christian, he just decided to change his ways. He became financially successful and was able to keep friends and a wife. And guess what? He acts like a Christian without going to any church. In fact, he hates church.
Hmmm. . . amazing that 21st century logic breaks things and good ole biblical principles make them better.
People are focused on the corrupt things of man when talking about religion. I HATE religion. I believe in God and his ways.
Now look at me, rambling on about your logic.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ha! That's surprising coming from you.
What, did you let the government raise your children like the good little socialist you are?
IwantRooskies: Someone please take care of my children! I don't know enough about life to tell them how to live!
Government: Ooh! We are here to tell your children how to think, act, talk and behave! Let us indoctrinate your children!
IwantRooskies: Oh thank evolving single celled organisms because I don't believe in God. Here, have them all and make them your own.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Here is a little story about the teaching of slavery in primary schools.
My friend has a daughter who went to a private school. In second grade, they taught about slavery in the south. They taught that a lot of black people were slaves. After that lesson, a boy turned to my friend's daughter and jokingly said "You're my slave!" because the girl had darker skin. So did they teach the kids about slavery or did they teach the kids to recognize each other as black and white?
Children that age cannot process the concept of racism. Until someone shows them, every child doesn't realize they have any differences. The problem with CRT is that it teaches the kids to divide themselves according to their skin color and not about the nature of slavery. I doubt the creators of CRT had good intentions, but if they did, they are going about the wrong way to raise awareness.
Also, if you can remember primary school, they didn't go into depth about any subject. Slavery in America and around the world has a huge back story to be portrayed in the correct light. Do you think the teachers are going to give a little child a good background of the subject? Come on, the kids today have an attention span of a gnat.
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@Stephen
He was a Prince. They don't work for a living. It is more likely he got his wealth and title from conquest. This doesn't indicate intellect nor logic.
Some pretty amazing jumps of logic here! In fact, it looks like some real mental acrobatics going on in your head! If only I could rise to the level of your mental capacity.
I'd say 21st century logic is treating you well, as long as you get to fill in any blanks with your own way of thinking.
This actually could be fun!
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@Greyparrot
That it is. I actually home school my children so I don't worry about that, but my kids' friends (yes they have friends, even though they are home schooled) spout off some of the dumbest things they learned from school. It's sad to hear it.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Hey, IwantRooskies, have you ever heard of negotiating? He is spouting off the extreme ends so that he is either not challenged or when he is challenged he can pull back to a lesser position but still in his favor. He has done that his whole life. I hate it too. It makes him look dumb, but he is not trying to look smart, he is trying to run a country.
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@YouFound_Lxam
I think has been set in a terrible light from the media and had been dubbed "toxic". Trump is a loud mouth, yes, and he also is not a fiscal conservative, but I really think he has the ability to do a lot of good for the country. I say this because the system and media is still trying to slander him and destroy him. It says to me that they are afraid of him. They don't bash Niki Hailey or DeSantis nearly as much or really at all.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
@YouFound_Lxam
Yikes dude, for being an inclusive Democrat, you really aren't living up to that name.
Actually, democrats are good at segregating. Remember civil rights in the south? IwantRooskies is a tried and true democrat, full of venom for others that don't look and believe like him.
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@IlDiavolo
In all seriuosness, I'm fed up with stupid people.
Now, here is something we can agree on! :)
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@Stephen
Well I did - the moment I first I read it.That is 21st century logic.
I'm sure that Abraham figured this out too. He wasn't well to do because he was stupid. He believed God would stick to his word, unlike most folks in the 21st century.
I see your view more as 21st century skepticism.
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@zedvictor4
So gaps in our understanding of material processes, are no longer filled with often fantastical hypotheses.
Not trying to sound challenging here, but give me an example.
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@IlDiavolo
The only possible way for people to come back to chrsitianity is that you introduce the Holy Inquisition in the US, like in the middle ages. Lol.
Can't someone choose their God? I'm not saying FORCE back to Christianity, I'm saying that forcing a replacement is the wrong idea.
All in all, I would agree that new age is just for educated and reasonable people.
You mean elitism? This would say that anyone believing otherwise is not educated or reasonable. Sure, that would make sense in the political and social climate of today.
Don't take it as a threat. The new age movement just tries to make sense of christianity. You can be christian and practice the new age principles at the same time. I understand you want to stand for your faith, but we have to be prepared for changes because things change over time and we have to accept it.
No threat taken. My belief is strong in my faith, not how the world would interpret it. The bible is very clear on how to please God and an ecumenical movement doesn't change it.
Now, the story makes sense. You see?
Sure. Makes sense for the educated and reasonable people in this world. I'll remain stupid and knuckle dragging. :)
I'm not sure if you realize that I am just as capable as you in understanding. You choose to see the ego talking to Jesus, I choose to see an actual being trying to ruin the plan of God. That doesn't make me uneducated or unreasonable, but it sure does make you sound elitist since I don't believe like you.
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@Stephen
@zedvictor4
What are you referring to as 21st century logic?
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@IlDiavolo
Me being religious has nothing to do with the fact that Americans are getting more depressed because they are straying from Biblical values, as you have stated. I'm not sure why my religion is an issue. Enlighten me.
Newage doesn't cover the main problem of humankind, and that is sin or the fall of mankind. They just change the definitions of sin or lower the bar. My prediction will be that people will still be depressed because they have not dealt with the inner man.
When you say the Christian narrative doesn't work anymore, what do you mean? You stated that America was happier when they espoused to those beliefs. Why not go back to what made them happy instead of introducing something new? Not broke, don't fix it kind of thing.
To say that Newage is based on logic is "lol-able" because ALL humans base their decisions on emotion. NOBODY is completely logical. I understand that Newage may "work" for some and not others, but it is only working because it will mirror biblical principles.
AND this still has nothing to do with my main point, Christian churches are failing because the people don't want God. The people want someone to pat them on the back and tell them there is nothing wrong with them. Again, it will all meld into one big happy religious cake for everyone to eat. Yay!
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@IlDiavolo
I would like to know what you mean with inmorality. Is it homosexuality what you refer to as inmoral?
Yes and many other things that are considered immoral. Many vices that is against the biblical view.
There's always been depravation in the world, but according to the experts, western society is pretty much safe compared to other times and that is what counts, which doesn't mean there is no more to do because half the world is still in a state of savagery. If there are people doing "inmoral" things behind closed doors, it's none of our business as long as they don't hurt other people
My point is the Christian system is moving from it's doctrinal tenants because the American people are moving away from them. But since they still think they can believe in God and not do what the Bible says, then they have to change their tenants. Therefore, more and more churches are allowing homosexuals, adultery, fornication, drunkenness, smoking, drug use, promiscuity, etc in the congregations. They lower the bar because they don't want God or the bible but still want the "Christian" image. You will see ecumenical churches more and more and a huge rift between hard-noses and the ecumenical movement. There will soon be no "in between".
What we should worry about, as I said, is people's mental health. It's well known religions have a deep influence in people's wellbeing. So, as christianity is on the decline, we will see a decrease in the number of happy people. That's why I think "new age" beliefs could help fill the void christianity is leaving.
I would disagree on this point above. People's happiness can be increased through the obedience of God's word. God created humankind and gave us a manual (the bible). If we follow the directions, things should work. The problem is that people are not following the directions. Just like a car, you can't put oil in the gas tank and then wonder why it doesn't run. Since the Newage beliefs are not the biblical ones (not all, but many), then mankind still will have a deeper form of depression than if they followed biblical principles.
I will agree, however, that atheism is the bane to any society and that any society that has a religion closer to biblical concepts, the better off they are.
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@Stephen
@rosends
Rosends,
Thanks for the update on my previous question! I will look into this further and I appreciate the info.
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@WeaverofFate
Sounds fun, but I would not have the time for it. I would like to be a spectator though. Honestly, I'm new at the whole debate thing.
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I don't believe in vaccines at all. I never vaccinated my children and I will never get the jab for Covid.
Zed is right. It all comes down to money for the pharmaceutical companies. You can look at charts showing the infection for whatever disease and when a vaccine was introduced and there will be no correlation.
The biggest association to a drop in the rate of disease is the ability to be sanitary in your environment. Washing your hands is the biggest prevention to disease.
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One of my biggest changes is the outlook on war.
As a young man, war seemed glorious. You are the hero. Unstoppable. Bulletproof. Conquer the enemy for the good of your country.
Now, I realize that many wars are fought because leaders argue about politics and confiscation of resources. All our young men and women go over seas to die and the homeland is stuck in financial straights while the elites are living it up in their big chairs with freezers full of food. Curse our corrupt leaders! Especially the one's who are war hawks! We should send them as the lead into battle and not our kids.
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@IlDiavolo
To your original post:
I believe Christianity, as most know it, will turn ecumenical. Meaning, they will absorb one another and gel into one. This will happen with all the major religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Like you said, it has already been done with the eastern religions.
There will be always be a fringe "hard-nose" groups, but I think as a whole, the world will meld into a one world religion.
As for why, Best Korea is on the right track. Look at the immorality of human kind. Nobody wants to be told what to do and that they are wrong. It makes it easier to soothe the conscience if there is no line set except for the easiest one to step over. So lower the bar for everything that way all kinds of terrible things can be considered acceptable and nobody has to bother with conflict.
Every religion will lose its identity to gain the acceptance of others.
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@Stephen
I see what you are saying now. Let me chew on this.
As for the fulfilled requirements, what requirements were not fulfilled? Please don't ask me to list any of them because I wouldn't be able to rattle them off.
Thanks for the feedback.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,
I appreciate the bible knowledge that you have instilled in me. I am also grateful it is not the same "knowledge" that you "instill" in your lesser class people in the nudist camp. Surely a man of God such as yourself can provide the whole world with your bible sense and capabilities given that all lesser class will hear your cry and heed to your instruction.
On a less serious note, your point about after the flesh is noted. Thanks for the challenge of the scriptures.
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@Stephen
Indeed. A completely new religion, which I do not believe Jesus ever intended create, especially in his name. He was a failed "Messiah" as were those other Messiah's that came and went before him.
Are you saying that Jesus was not the messiah or that he could have been the messiah but failed? I'm just trying to pick up what you are putting down.
Also, you are saying that others built up Jesus to the status of "Messiah" and created a religion around it known as Christianity?
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@Stephen
So? It proves nothing, I'm afraid.
For you maybe, but my point is that there are no new religions looking for a messiah. They are all ancient.
There were no Christians in Palestine at the time of Jesus the Jew. In fact he, Jesus the Jew never once mentions the word Christian in the whole of the gospels and neither do the gospel authors.
I'm not trying to split hairs here, but you do realize that a Christian is a follower of Christ, right? You are correct, there was no such thing as a Christian during the time of Christ, but it is because the term "Christian" didn't come about till after Jesus's death.
It seems a desperate attempt on your own part to link Jesus the Jew to something that had supposed to have happened thousands of years before in the land of Summer.
I can definitely see your opposition if you don't believe the bible, specifically the new testament. I didn't create the link between the two, but the story in the old testament links with the new, so it's easy to see the connection. The need for a savior, Mosaic law as school master, Jesus it the savior. Not that hard or that desperate.
I do mind.
Don't be afraid to say what you are. I can't hurt you.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Rooskielover,
That doesn't deny the fact that DEMOCRATS wanted segregation. You endorse racism!
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@Stephen
Stephen,
Well you should first prove how the statement relates to the man Christians call Jesus the messiah. It was your own claim sunshine. Not mine.
Without wasting my time with you on this subject, the reference is easily meaning the destruction of evil at the price for the messiah. You saying "no it doesn't" does not make me have to do anything.
Well again, it is yet another unsupported claim made by you. I have shown you what Jesus himself says about coming ONLY to the lost people (sheep) of IS-RA-EL." “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" Matthew 15:24
Same as above, but there is a lot of scripture showing that Jesus's crucifixion was for all and not only for the Jews. You are clueless on the bible if you call my claim unsupported. I already admitted I didn't know what Jesus meant when he said he coming for the lost sheep of Israel. If you know what he meant about this, enlighten me instead.
No my point is the myth warped around a very human Jesus concerning his date of birth was taken from a much older pagan (more likely Roman) myth. No one can say when Jesus the Jew was supposed to have been born and not even the gospel writers can agree either.
Got it. I agree that the Christ-mass myth is pulled from pagan origins.
Ok so returning to your question: "Are there any recent serious religions that show the context of a messiah after the birth of Jesus the Jew?"
My point exactly. No formed religion after Jesus's death has a tenant of a messiah involved with it.
BTW, I'm curious to know your religious background, if you don't mind. Some of your statements would make more sense if I could know what amount of knowledge you have with the bible.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Look up who wanted segregation:
Looks like you are trying to get to your racist roots with your good ole days. Go ahead. Dig 'em up.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ah! Looks like you enjoyed the wrong aspects of the "good ole days". Leave it to IwantRooskies to remember how he loved segregation.
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@Stephen
@zedvictor4
Besides, "inextricably" is a pretty bold statement.
It's funny with you guys that anything bible is easily refutable and anything else that you agree with is "inextricably" obvious.
Just saying that there may be a different reason behind some things other than the parrot talk you guys give credit to.
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@zedvictor4
Zed, I didn't say they had some sort of isolated society. I said that the fact that almost all ancient religions have a "messiah" means it came from a single source, very much like the flood stories.
Whether it came from God or from some ancient guy picking his butt figuring out how to get the masses to follow him, that is up to you.
Just because they are similar doesn't mean it had been plagiarized.
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According to my calculations:
EBUC in the numerical sense is: 526984633
When this number is multiplied to the amount of brain cells in the entire human race today, you get a whopping: 21
Use this number and divide it by the whipped cream pie sugar count in grams and you are getting closer to: 2023
Use those same grams and sine tangent the thing all the way to the ice cream shoppe: 6
That can then be added to my spherical waistline of 36 and soon to be: 42
Therefore, life will end approximately at IHOPPY hour!! What a devastating conclusion this is!!
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@PREZ-HILTON
Never read the comic, but based on your description:
It's not rape. Rape doesn't apply to men being sexually harassed.
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