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Starting the game in the middle of my D&D session, hm? I see how it is.
My character is 1955-1960, War Epic.
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@iamanabanana
Yeah, sorry about that Banana. Hope I haven't put you off too much about playing Mafia. You were easier to push because your role fit a you!scum narrative better, particularly with the "An investigative villager was interfered with Night 1" info from Day 2.
I was trying to apply the idea that a story that both gets you fully from Point A to Point B in an easy to understand way and is presented confidently is sometimes considered convincing enough to be evidence on its own. Didn't work here, huh?
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@Lunatic
Just to be clear, Pie "quitting" was at least a little strategic. He was pretty sure he was outed regardless and wanted to frame it in a light that made Banana look bad. He was still helping a lot behind the scenes with phrasing and proofreading posts.
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I'm not going to write a whole long essay about this game, because I'm sure that's already what Austin is doing. I'm willing to post a link to the scum Discord if Pie is for people to see what was going on in there.
From my point of view, at least, it definitely did seem townsided with how much info there was. But it was certainly still winnable. The Conditional Vigilante claim and the way I played it was what lost Mafia the game, as far as I can tell- WF and Lunatic both said they didn't really have a behavioral scumread on me at all until I claimed. Hence the whole, "I'm never going to get an easy townread here again" thing.
I don't want to get too deep into the mech marshes, but Pie and I were both pretty solidly under the impression that WF had been hard confirmed by the EOD2 information, which is why we ended up deciding on trying to set the narrative up against Banana starting Day 3. It wasn't meant to target her because she was new, but because her role was the hardest to clear. I hope you don't take my hard push on you personally, Banana.
We did consider pivoting to WF mid-Day 4, but I was more confident I could write a solid case on Banana than a solid case on WF. I'm not really sure it would have changed the outcome, because WF would still have been able to make the points about my claim being weird.
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I did make two scum slips over the course of the game. Not sure if anyone noticed them, but:
- At EOD1, I voted Two. This was a slip/partially outing because I'd indicated before that I was reasonably confident that Owen/Moozer wagons had at least one scum.
- During Day 2, in one post of my "catch-up," you might notice that it pings Earth, WF, and Pie. But nothing I say there is actually directed at Pie. This was a mistake, because I'd edited the post to remove a part directed at Pie that he didn't want in thread yet. I removed that part of the post, but missed the ping.
I'll take any other questions about my play this game if anyone has them.
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I suppose I'll never get an easy townread on this site again, huh?
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@whiteflame
The very last refresh before I went to sleep. Okay. Last post to hopefully not lose this game, I guess.
His legacy role is particularly strange.
Several of the legacies are pretty underpowered and/or situational, to be honest. Moozer's is minor information that has a good shot of being useless. Lunatic's is completely useless unless someone is janitored/tailored before he dies (which it doesn't even look like scum had?) or unless Pie died first. Owen's is also useless unless both he and his invention targets survive to tell a tale. My point with Banana is that it's the only one that's a direct continuation of the role- all of the others are more creative.
If I may get meta for a second, it doesn't really make sense why Austin would write a rolecard with a justification for why Banana is a Roleblocker... and then write a Legacy justification for why she gets another shot at it later.
An absence of detail seems like a common flaw.
I think there was a misunderstanding, now that I'm more closely reading how you're interpreting my role, and frankly, that's my fault for not being abundantly clear about exactly what it does. What happens is that I choose a target. It is a visit, but I picked Lunatic because I suspected that the Ascetic might have been a bluff and he was actually just Bulletproof. If they are targeted by the Mafia nightkill, I get a bullet, which can be used on a later night. It does not go off the night that I use it. I thought "I get a Vigilante charge." made it clear that it was for the future, not immediate.
- His softclaim back in DP2 doesn’t make sensebased on what we now know his role to be. He said this back then:
“Me claiming would make my role effectively worthless.”
If I were to claim a role like that, I would either get killed (making it worthless) or, I imagine, Mafia would start playing games with the nightkill explicitly to screw with me. That's why I wanted to wait.
(If you want more proof about my claim, I sort of slipped it Day 1 talking about additional nightkills and I also intentionally softed my role type Day 2 when I was talking to Pie.)
that doesn’t make sense of whyhe’s still alive. If an RB is an odd choice to leave alive, a Conditional Vigwith a dwindling number of plausible targets is even stranger, since they canend the game during the NP. Strange that Cerulean’s never noted that.
By Night 3, there wouldn't have been enough time for me to get a shot off if the Mafia was reading my role correctly. And if they were reading it incorrectly like you did, they might have assumed that I would do it with myself as the guess that Night, following my claim. But in any case, I was pretty clearly left alive because almost everyone had an expressed suspicion on me. You said it was me or you. Lunatic said it was me or you. Earth said it was me or Banana. So a scum Banana benefits from killing Earth there and hoping me, you, and Lunatic would fight it out today.
In the end, it comes down to which you think is more believable- scum having a JOAT with investigation disrupting abilities and a Godfather who has a many-use Delay ability (because remember, I would have needed to both delay you N1 and delay Banana N3 in this world), or Pie coaching Banana into making a claim that looks good and Banana coasting on a consensus townread for most of the game until the POE got narrow and the Lawyer was actually necessary. And I think even from an outside perspective, one of these is significantly more convincing than the other.
Good night, and good luck, I suppose.
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@whiteflame
I'm intending to sleep in 30-45 minutes because I have an unfortunately early day tomorrow. WF, if you have any last questions for me, ask me soon. Sad that we didn't end up getting a chance to real-time.
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You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true.
(This quote, part 2)
Okay, expanding on the Day 3 Earth thing.
Banana had exactly 1 post on Day 3, which is this:
I roleblocked earth, since he didn't have an active role, I figured it might catch him in a lie. But if you are saying you were the night kill, then maybe earth is really town, or the passive mafia role. Can you role block a passive role?
Which, okay, let's break this down.
First "it might catch him in a lie" and "maybe earth is really town" are... usually not something you say about someone you townread. It's still not really clear who you even thought was scum at that point and why you didn't block them instead if you thought Earth was Town all along.
But more importantly, this seems like a pretty heavy TMI (too much information). Banana seems to be flat-out assuming in this post that Lunatic is telling the truth about the BPV. There's no wondering about "Well, maybe I did block Earth from doing the nightkill, and Lunatic is lying..." There's no fleshed out thoughts here, no paranoia, no wondering, Banana's just flat-out saying "Oh, you got attacked? Cool, I guess that's what happened." (That's a little exaggerated, but I hope you understand my point.)
Generally, when you're a newbie Town player, the best thing you can do is be as transparent about your thought process as possible. Because while you may not have the knack for catching and casing scum, you can at least try and make yourself obvious. While I respect that Banana does indeed have a life beyond DART and Mafia, most of the posts she made after Day 1 didn't show any real chain of thought or the sort of messy thinking you would expect from a newb Towny. It's more aligned with a Mafia member who's afraid to post because it's hard to come up with a thought process that looks "real."
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
Alright, let's go point by point.
He has already decided that I am mafia and is making a case against me to fit his own narrative. Does he do this as town? Whiteflame is by far not confirmed either so it makes no sense for him to do this. This is why I think cerulean is probably mafia and trying to go for me, the weaker, easier target. I don't know all the terminology and mafia lingo so he thinks he can bully me into getting lynched because of this. He might be right, but I am going to go down fighting!
Most of this is an appeal to emotion. But more importantly, I explicitly left the door open for you to tell me why I'm wrong. I offered to explain anything that might be confusing. The reason I wrote a lengthy narrative is because the roles in this game are kind of weird and there's a lot of mechanical info to trudge through, so I assembled the solve/explanation that made the most sense to me both mechanically and socially.
If you look at the mafia guide posted by earth the roles listed there are: Goon, Godfather, Stalker, Politician, Lawyer, and Busdriver." So unless you thought I was going to claim any of those roles, it was fairly obvious that I was claiming Roleblocker very early from my first post.
Bus Driver is a villager role (Transporter) in Town of Salem, which is a pretty popular Mafia site. It's not unreasonable to me that if you were going to claim something in the "scum role" list, you could leave the door open for that possibility. The last game I had here, there was a JOAT with a Bus Driver charge, so it's certainly plausible.
As of right now the POE is still the same, whiteflame, and pie were not on the lynch. We know pie was mafia and whiteflame's alignment is still up in the air, so from my POV this is still a town move to vote 0 here.
Your last POE that you posted in Day 1 was Owen, WF, Pie, Casey. You also explicitly said you had a problem with Casey a couple of posts later. Why is this omitted from your explanation?
I literally Roleblocked a mafia member night phase one. And that is an alibi? What?!
...Yes? Because by doing that, it would be a soft "Pie couldn't have carried the nightkill last night, meaning he's less likely to be Mafia." Even unstated, the implication is still there. Or at least, it was until Moozer revealed the Strengthen.
And I claimed this immediately in my first post, there was tracking roles at the time that could have caught me in a lie if I was lying. So for your narrative spin to work here, you are operating under the assumption that I got super duper lucky to not be caught by casey, and even luckier still that casey was the night kill target.
Your first post was an hour and a half after Casey claimed her investigation, no luck necessary. If she had claimed something like "Pie wasn't visited last Night," you could've pivoted elsewhere like Earth or Lunatic and say that you were checking to make sure their claims held up.
Hey you got me here. Evil old banana, laughing maniacally and twisting my invisible evil villain mustache as I purposely just have an actual life away from you nerds. I was probably watching netflix or something, but no, as you say, yeah totally intentional. Literally don't even know how to respond to this without laughing at the absurdity of it.
Fine, I'll take the dig at me. But you cast the hammering vote. You knew there would be an investigation. There's hardly an excuse to miss it when it was open for that long.
You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true.
That's exactly the point, that you didn't have any suspicion on Earth even after the block. I'm going to put this one on hold because I actually wanted to write a longer post about it- I think it's a pretty critical point.
I don't even recall ceru ever scum reading me prior to this actual day phase.
My take at the moment is that it's Banana and Pie is also frustrated about them not Playing The Game as much but I haven't done a real close look on how that mech would work yet. It feels like we have enough info to piece it together, though. (Me, Day 3)
By the way, WF read this part, do scum in DART get to talk in their chat after they die? Asking because this is a pretty decent wall for someone's.. first? Second? game.
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Ah.
No point in waiting to cross, I suppose.
VTL Banana
I'm going to assume you're not slowrolling as scum, WF, because that would be cruel and unusual punishment. Let's see what Banana said...
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@whiteflame
Taking into account what I've seen from both of you, Cerulean seems to be pretty clear that he's sussing Banana, so at this point, he should be putting up a vote, especially if he sees me as pretty solid town since there's no risk that I'll just hammer out of nowhere.
I'd rather give Banana time to respond first. I know I wrote a whole long case out, but saying I'm 100% certain that Banana is scum isn't quite correct. I have bad tunnel vision sometimes, and I'd rather not possibly throw the game to you and get my ear chewed off by Lunatic post-game because I didn't at least give her a shot to explain things.
Speaking of time remaining, is there some time today where all three of us will be around to real-time? That would be ideal, in my opinion. I don't recall if I've mentioned my schedule at all, but I'm in EST (8:52 AM as of this post) and I'll be around pretty much until I go to sleep (approx. 10-11 PM, which is 3-4 hours before EOD if I remember right).
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@iamanabanana
I don't know half the things he is talking about. Still, I will do my best to respond to the stuff I can soon.
I can explain things if you ask. I admit I sort of went into case-writing mode without considering the audience properly.
Notice how Cerulean has to paint every aspect of the story his way to cater to his narrative that I am mafia.
I do feel the need to clarify that there's a different between points that explain why your actions make sense from a scum perspective and points that explain why your behavior is scummy in the first place. "Banana is the JOAT and Pie is the Godfather" isn't a reason you're scummy, it's an explanation of why the world in which you're scum isn't contradictory, if that makes sense. "Banana showed up to hammer Moozer in the middle of a conversation and then disappeared for the investigation" is a reason why you're scummy to me, for instance.
sees that I actually voted 0 and pie voted 2, and now I am "Distancing" myself from pie?!
My mistake, yes. The point is that 1) You were wrong even though the right answer would have made more sense from the perspective you gave and 2) Frankly, it makes more sense than you voting 2 in a world where you're scum because distancing from Pie is what was going on Day 1, with you scumreading him but not thoroughly pushing him.
how would you know 100% that I am scum?
If I was 100% confident I would have voted you already. I'd put it around 80/20, 70/30, something like that. I think you're significantly more likely to be the scum than WF and I want to know where I'm wrong if I am.
You can say I'm jumping through hoops, but you have to jump through hoops for me to be scum (Because I would have to be a Godfather who also has a multi-shot Delay ability) or for WF to be scum (Because it means the scum were completely avoiding the D1 wagon and that the one angleshoot about WF's result is wrong). The world where you're scum doesn't really require any major or weird mechanical assumptions at all. If it does, tell me how.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
...Am I screaming into the void? I hope not.
I'm going to bed, I'll finish this tomorrow morning (All hail work from home days). Hit me with your responses or questions.
Banana, in the off chance you're Town, your job at this exact moment is to convince me why I'm wrong and stupid and tunneling you horrendously.
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The Night Actions
This is the first mechanical point against Banana- claiming to block Pie. The reasoning is vaguely there, but it's mostly just mirroring what Lunatic was already saying. The idea, presumably, was to have Pie be "roleblocked" as at least a partial alibi. Unfortunately for them, Moozer ruined that.
Silenced
Pie pretending to be silenced was... weird, for sure. It was one of those Refuge in Audacity plays, and it did work, mostly because Moozer and WF were feeling the pressure for a lot of the Day. The scum team didn't need to exert too much force on Day 2 because of that. Lunatic was the only one who really pressured or put heavy suspicion on Pie. Pie intentionally voted all over the place, presumably including votes on Banana to throw things off. He could've avoided Banana entirely- she was consensus townread, after all- but I imagine this was more distancing by placing votes on almost everyone.
Legacy
There's no real amazing place in the order of events to talk about Banana's legacy, so I guess I'll put it here in the Day 2 section. I have two issues with it. First, after Day 1, Banana never had enough posts to trigger it, even though it's fairly powerful. Second, it's decidedly different from every other legacy in that it's, well, just a single additional charge of her ability. Every other legacy is something at least slightly creative (depending on whatever Pie's is), yes? We have:
-Owen: Send a note to someone you gave an invention to.
-Casey: Treestump the next Day.
-Moozer: Reveal the total number of deaths.
-Lunatic: Reveal a modified flip.
-Earth: Protect someone from death.
Then the claimed ones:
-WF: Your investigation last Night is public.
-Cerulean: You can use a charge of an ability from a dead player.
-Banana: You can use your ability one more time.
Banana's doesn't really fit compared to all the others- none of them are as simple as "Use your own ability again." Even mine is choosing someone else's ability.
Hammer and Investigation
Banana hammered the vote once again with over an hour to go. To be frank, this is the first part where I actually started sussing Banan. Because Banana hammered Moozer (without ever having a stated scumread there) essentially in the middle of a discussion. And this was after I had very clearly expressed that I intended to vote Moozer eventually and was in the middle of still doing things (Yes, I am still a little mad about that). So the excuse of "I wanted to make sure there was a lynch" does not hold water.
What's even worse about this, though, is that Banana skipped out on the investigation. I think this was another audacity play, frankly, to try and skew the investigation. Because, realistically, it doesn't make sense for Banana to hammer and then somehow miss the investigation that came only 20 minutes later and was open for 2 hours.
Finally, on this point, I suspect there was a little TMI leak in what Banana said after the hammer vote. This point is admittedly a little out there, but it pinged me along with the rest of the circumstances there:
Roleblocking one of my scum reads tonight.
Scum reads, plural, gives a faint implication of knowing that Moozer would flip town. If you weren't sure, you might say something like "Blocking my strongest scumread tonight" or something similar. Even beyond not giving any impression as to who those scumreads are, the phrasing is off.
Banana's POV
At Start of Day 2, Banana's POV was presumably exactly Pie/WF- her End of Day 1 POE was Owen/Casey/Pie/WF, and two of those were dead. This was supported by Banana posting against Pie and voting against WF. The last thing Banana did before the hammer vote, though, was voting me for my role. And considering she supposedly blocked Earth the next Night, she must have been scumreading him too... except there's absolutely no evidence of Banana's attitude changing. We have no idea how Banana got from point A (Pie/WF evil) to point B (Cerulean/Earth evil??) because there's no thought process shown in the thread.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
Okay, going back to explain things.
The Scum Team: Banana JOAT, Pie Godfather
I know, WF, you said that you thought Banana would have to be the Godfather in that scenario, but I'm not so sure. The main issue with that argument is because of the claims- if Banana is passive and Pie is active, why would Banana claim active? That would get caught out by a Tracker- so I think Banana actually being the JOAT makes more sense.
The JOAT abilities: Delay, Lawyer, Frame, Rolecop
This is a point that I am admittedly less certain on. In a scum Banana world, WF was delayed on Night 1 and Banana was Lawyered on Night 3. But I'm not sure exactly what happened on Night 2- a Frame isn't very useful there because the most likely suspected investigation from WF would have been Banana/Pie/Cerulean (since Lunatic was claiming Ascetic and Earth was claiming Miller). Framing me there would make that show 2 scum, which is dangerous when both are in fact in there. So my thought is either 1) Banana didn't actually do anything that night or 2) Banana had another ability- like a Rolecop, maybe something else?- that she used in the meantime while framing wasn't useful.
The Claim
The big sticking point and best reason to townread Banana is the Roleblocker claim. But it's frankly not as impressive as it seems. There are multiple possibilities here, but scum presumably had some time to come up with fake claims- and one good way to fake claim for a newbie scum is to pick something that just slightly strains the bounds of credibility, like a role that's usually scum. I'm not sure if they committed to Roleblocker or tried leaving the door open for other roles on the guide. But in any case, the counterclaim isn't particularly compelling either because there was a 1 hour gap between Owen's claim and Banana's counterclaim. That's plenty of time for (probably mainly Pie) the scum team to decide to commit and go for it. Again, it's something that slightly strains the boundaries of credibility without being so insane that it's a straight-up 1 for 1 with Owen.
The Investigation Vote: Two and Zero
I did make a mistake on this in my "story." Banana said zero, not two. This is still a little bit off, because if we consider the Owen death, that means Banana's POE at the time was Whiteflame, Pie, and Casey- one is strictly mathematically better if they all have equal odds. But more importantly, the thing here is that both of them picked different wrong answers. While that's true that all of us were wrong, Banana's choice doesn't align because she was different from Pie. It can easily be a form of distancing, because it looks like that was the team's Day 1 plan.
Let's use this point to talk about Bussing Pie Day 1. Banana proposed earlier that bussing Pie on Day 1 is unpairing. This does not really work, because it's fairly basic distancing- but more importantly, pushing a teammate is very common newbie scum behavior. Anecdotally, I know this because I did it when I was a newbie scum and I've seen it happen several times. But in general, it's about TMI. It's easier to soft push a teammate and look for reasons to justify that because you know it's true. Also, I would point out that there was essentially no danger to Pie on Day 1 as a result of that push- the thread was focused on Moozer and Owen, and Banana had no real threadpull.
I would also note that Pie's behavior around Banana's claim was weird. Remember, Pie hard pushed Earth because Miller is apparently a scummy claim. But claiming a role that typically appears as scum gets an "ok ur town" (This post).
So why have Banana scumread Pie and Pie townread Banana? To me, the logic is most likely in the threadpull- Pie was essentially leading thread, so if he didn't want Banana under the magnifying glass, he could direct thread away. And that's exactly what happened.
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Minor mistake, Banana voted 0 on the post investigation vote, not 2. Mixed them up with Moozer, I think.
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I suppose I'll do this Game Theory style and start with the story that I'm proposing and then go back and explain why it makes sense. It goes like this:
-Pie and Banana roll scum. Pie is some sort of Godfather, Banana is the JOAT. We can't say exactly what kind of JOAT, but something like x1 Delay, x1 Lawyer, x1 Framer, and I suspect something like a Rolecop.
-Pie tells Banana to act like her role is a wolf one. We can't be sure if they committed to Banana being a Roleblocker early or if they wanted to leave the door open for a different role that's scum on the Guide, like Bus Driver.
-There may have been some discussion in the scum chat, but Pie presumably also tells Banana to go for the Roleblocker claim after Owen claimed Inventor Rolestopper.
-The Day ends with a lynch on Owen. Both Pie and Banana give the Two answer to throw off the investigation.
-That Night, Casey is killed and Whiteflame is delayed. We can't really say for sure who did what, but I don't think it matters.
-The next Day, Pie pretends to be silenced in the hopes that it will get him townread. Banana claims to have blocked Pie as an alibi for Pie.
-The pair lets the Day go with the Town mostly being wrong with Moozer and WF, with Pie egging on the Moozer vote a bit and Banana staying under the radar.
-Pie follows the flow for the investigation. Banana probably intentionally skipped out on it.
-That Night, Lunatic is attacked and I'm rolecopped.
-The next Day, Pie sees that Lunatic survives and... probably flips out, in combination with the sheer amount of info we got from the Day 2 vote and the fact that I'm a Conditional Vigilante.
-Banana claims to have blocked Earth, but doesn't push it much.
-Pie is lynched.
-That Night, Banana self-Lawyers and kills Earth.
-We are now up to the present.
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@whiteflame
My main issue with this Banana Town case is that it inherently relies on underestimating not just Banana, but the hypothetical Banana/Pie team. Lunatic would be able to tell you that pairing a newbie wolf with a very experienced wolf creates a dangerous situation for town, he played a champs game where that exact thing happened (I can show you if you want). Which is why I dislike cases solely based on "This person is unable to fake that thing."
I'm about to start work so I can't write out the full Banana scum case that's floating around in my head, but it's there and in my opinion it makes more sense both mechanically and socially than the WF scum world.
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@iamanabanana
If you're Town, the only way it could have failed is if I'm exactly a Godfather who also has either a higher priority roleblock or some kind of immunity. Which would be pretty powerful when Pie would have also been a JOAT in that world.
Banana, can you remind me what your legacy role is? I don't think you've ever said it, but I might have forgotten and I'm not keen on searching through every phase at the moment.
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@whiteflame
I've tried reading through this response a couple of times and I'm still struggling to understand it. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you ask "why did you say 2 for the post lynch investigation?" This is the post where I gave my investigation results:
The post lynch investigation as in the one Austin ran asking how many scum were on the wagon. You said there were two on the wagon when it was Me/Casey/Earth/Lunatic/Banana.
Owen (5/5): Casey, Earth, Banana, Cerulean, LunaLuna (1/5): Moozer...How many scum were on the final lynch wagon?
Sorry, didn't see that the DP had ended.Gonna say two.
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@whiteflame
I actually believed both you and Casey were town, so I chose both of you with the intent of ruling you out entirely and seeing if Moozer was scum.
So why did you say 2 for the post lynch investigation? If you thought Casey and I were Town, and you've apparently been townreading Banana since Day 1, did you think the team was exactly Earth/Lunatic in that moment?
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
In any case, the narrative against me falls flat because it doesn't fit if I'm the active Mafia and it doesn't fit if I'm the passive Mafia. And we know there's one of each because the info outright said:
Scum have a passive role (Godfather, Ninja, or something like that) that allows them to appear innocent to investigations. In addition, they have an active role (the JOAT, presumably) capable of causing false investigative reports.
The initial case you gave was that I was passive:
That makes it very likely that he's the Godfather (Pie was likely Lawyered NP2, so they both looked investigated innocent based on their roles).
because you investigated me as Innocent twice. But if that's the case and I was passive, how could I possible have killed on Night 3? I would have been roleblocked, unless you're specifically trying to say that I investigate as innocent and I'm roleblock immune, which is extremely powerful when Town power is significantly concentrated in roleblocks.
But then later, when you're talking to Banana, you say:
Considering that scum roles have precedence over town roles, though, and considering that scum knew your role could interfere with them while mine could not, (WF talking to Banana)
Which implies that I would need to be the active Mafia in order to stop Banana from roleblocking me- but then how was I able to elude investigation twice in a row? Most JOATs I've ever seen either have only one charge total per ability or they need to cycle through everything in order to use something again. Casey's JOAT is like that, the JOAT you've claimed is like that
The narrative just does not make sense no matter which way you slice it. I can't be the active JOAT because you investigated me Innocent twice in a row and I can't be the passive Godfather (or whatever it might be) because I wouldn't have been able to get the nightkill off.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
...Uh? I'm going to ignore that.
I was coming into today thinking things pointed towards Banana but honestly, WF is making me way less sure of it. Let's address the case on me he's got first.
We already know from DP2 that there is a Godfather in this game
Wrong, actually. We know there's "a passive role that allows them to appear innocent to investigations." That could be a Godfather, but it doesn't have to be. If Austin meant Godfather, he could have just said Godfather. There's a reason it was asked on Day 3 what passive role might exist. If it was guaranteed, that wouldn't be a question he asked.
There's always the chance that Banana is the Godfather, but frankly, I just don't believe it. There's too much evidence out of DP1 that Banana's been honest about her role, and I don't think she'd claim to be the Roleblocker if she was. If she was a more experienced player, I'd believe it's possible. I just don't believe it here.
We're talking about a team that contains Pie, who pretended to be silenced and fake claimed Innocent Child. Why is it completely out of the question for him to have told Banana to claim Roleblocker?
This is frankly my biggest issue with your play today and kind of yesterday WF and I'll get into it more later.
It would be an incredibly bastard mod move to create a role that is meant to fudge results of two different types investigators and then only have one of those types in the game.
This is flat out untrue. You're telling me you've never played or hosted a game where a role had unnecessary details that widens claim space for scum? You've never had a game where "They will die unless protected" without protective roles was stated in a role card? I can look at quite literally the last game here and pull an example:
If you ever die in the night, all lethal actions in the subsequent night will be negated. (Martyr role, Indian Politicians Mafia)
There were no killing roles in that game besides the Mafia. By the logic in your case, "all" could be considered misleading because there was only every one possible lethal action per night.
Beyond that, if I wanted to get a mislynch, I very easily could have fabricated either of the results I've given so far, especially my Dreamer result.
Sure, but that would put you in a 1f1 with someone, and with Lunatic on you pretty much at all times this game, that wouldn't be a very good outcome.
I guess you could argue that this is just a different iteration of the Conditional Vigilante
Why is this an "I guess"? The term "Conditional" is pretty clearly open to multiple different potential conditions, so I don't see any reason why you're sussing that my condition isn't identical to Joebob's from a different game with a different host.
with Luna's flip, that falls flat. We know that a lethal role used on Luna resulted in a delayed outcome. How, exactly, does a role like this work with that role? Would he have to guess Luna the night he is shot or the night he dies? With Casey alone, maybe this was believable because he was technically out of the game after he was shot, but nothing about the role as Cerulean stated it makes sense with a delayed death.
I didn't quote my role PM exactly because we're... not supposed to do that? Regardless, you can figure out pretty intuitively what it's supposed to mean with respect to Lunatic's role. It's guessing the target of the Night Kill. So Casey, then Lunatic, then Earth would be the correct answers. I did double check with Austin because I guessed Lunatic was going to get killed (due to being semi-confirmed by the BPV and frankly by pushing Pie), and I wanted to be sure that was why it didn't go off. You didn't bother to even ask me about this before throwing an accusation.
the fundamental fact is that he has nothing to support the existence of the role. Oh darn, he just missed the target of the NK 3 time in a row. How unlucky can you get?
Uh-huh. And tell me, which one of those kills would you have nailed?
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Cerulean has arrived. Let's get this thing started. Or continued, I suppose.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
Hey all, checking in from work. I'll be around in a few (4-5 hours) to start looking back over Days, asking questions, and piecing things together.
A couple of early questions off the top of my head, though-
Banana, can you double check what WF just said about roleblocks? I find it surprising and if we're on the same team here I'd like fewer barriers to finding each other. Also, I'd like to know why you picked the roleblock targets you did.
WF, can you tell me about your reasoning for the investigations you did? (I get the feeling that you think it's me, but bear with me for at least a little while here.)
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@Earth
@Lunatic
Earth, just to be clear, you don't impact the post-lynch investigations at all, yes?
...But in any case, I suppose that suddenly puts WF back on the table if the "passive role that allows them to appear innocent to investigations" could be one that just doesn't visit (Ninja) instead of one with an alignment that appears as Innocent (Godfather).
Do you think that counts, though? "appear innocent" sounds more like an alignment investigation.
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I don't know how long you all want to discuss for today- how much time should we go for when the Pie flip/NK might turn things around next phase?
I'll drop my vote onto Pie for now, but no rush.
VTL Pie
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@Earth
@Lunatic
Did you read the info we got yesterday?
Scum have a passive role that allows them to appear innocent to investigations. In addition, they have an active role capable of causing false investigative reports. (Lunatic)
If Pie is that passive role, or if he's the active role used something like a Framer ability on me, that would create a same alignment investigation, would it not?
...And if we're angleshooting, one of those is probably what happened if Mhar got the result wrong initially.
What's your legacy role? It sounds absolutely useless. (Earth)
Have you ever played Town of Salem? It's kind of like a one-shot version of the Retributionist role from there. I would get to choose a dead role and use one of their abilities. Which, as I said, situational- I think it would only have been actually useful with Moozer, Owen, Banana (if real), and interestingly, it's not restricted to only Good-aligned roles, so I guess if an Evil died with something useful, I could use that too.
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@Lunatic
Why is Banana impossible? I still find it hard to believe that Town spawned in with a Bulletproof Ascetic, a Roleblocker, a Rolestopper Inventor, and a Strengenther without scum having a recourse, and I think having both a scum Roleblocker and a town Roleblocker would be kind of weird. Do I not know the Austin hosting psyche well enough or...?
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I'm pretty sure I'm cleared by WF's investigations. Like, I know there can be manipulatives in play, but if it were me, that would mean that WF's ability would have needed to be blocked/delayed Night 1 AND made incorrect somehow. I still don't have a strong grasp on the roles that get used here, but that seems like really weird design.
My take at the moment is that it's Banana and Pie is also frustrated about them not Playing The Game as much but I haven't done a real close look on how that mech would work yet. It feels like we have enough info to piece it together, though.
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@whiteflame
So, at this point with one known scum on the table, you think it’s plausible that there’s a Miller without a town alignment investigative role? (WF)
I think it would be silly, yes. Unless it's very specifically a Miller that messes with the post chop investigation votes or something (which Earth hasn't mentioned). As I said, I thought the only real team with you in it was with Earth, and with Pie outing that's clearly not it. So I'm willing to treat you as cleared for now.
For the record, I don’t like Cerulean’s claim. Town has a lot of very powerful PRs, and a Conditional Vig makes little sense to me in addition. Noting the lack of justification in his claim post. (WF)
It's apparently a very weak role because I'm awful at guessing nightkills. I posted a link to wikipedia for you to read, but basically, the justification is that one Auburn Calloway attempted to hijack the flight and kill all of the crew members with a (spear)gun. The reason it's conditional is because the speargun was only used after he tried to kill the crew with hammers, as a sort of last resort.
As for the legacy, which I forgot to mention, because exactly one of the crew members ever flew again, I can use an ability from one person (not myself) in the graveyard the Night following my death. Which is fairly situational.
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...Uh? Okay? I guess that means it's not WF/Earth. And I also guess that means I'm an idiot for engaging with the "Silencing" and assuming that Pie wouldn't do that.
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If we assume that the Day 1 investigation vote was wrong because the info was... rather bad, compared to the Day 2 info, that does end up removing the Lunatic/Earth and Banana/Earth teams. Which narrows it to Pie/Earth, WF/Earth, or Pie/Banana.
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Weren't we... flat-out given that there's a Godfather yesterday?one passive role scum has (Investigation question)
What else would this even be?Scum have a passive role that allows them to appear innocent to investigations. (Investigation result)
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@Earth
Okay, let's do a quick check.
The only way Lunatic can be evil is if Earth is evil. Lunatic/Banana doesn't make sense because there would be no good reason to soft clear Earth by claiming a roleblock there and simultaneously claiming a BPV, and Lunatic/Pie or WF doesn't explain why Lunatic would claim the BPV (and it would have necessitated a holster play in the first place, I believe) before Banana claimed the roleblock. If Lunatic were evil in any non-Earth, non-Banana world, the BPV claim would be completely unnecessary because Banana's roleblock would have made Earth/Banana a false difference check that would win the game for evils, presumably.
The only way WF can be evil is if Earth is evil. This is because if WF's Cop ability is fake, then Earth's Miller role would have no reason to exist. So unless Earth has been FPSing the entire game, other WF teams are off the game. (Although I suppose this could be wrong if Earth's Miller role would have also modified Casey's reports somehow... or the post-death investigations?? Earth, does your role impact all investigative reports or just ones done by players, and do you think it could have impacted Casey?)
That leaves:
Lunatic/Earth
WF/Earth
Pie/Earth
Banana/Earth
Pie/Banana
From my point of view, at least. Anything I'm missing here? Am I making any bad leaps of logic?
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@iamanabanana
I roleblocked earth, since he didn't have an active role, I figured it might catch him in a lie. But if you are saying you were the night kill, then maybe earth is really town, or the passive mafia role. Can you role block a passive role? (Banana)
What makes you think it's not a Lunatic/Earth team where Earth got blocked and Lunatic claimed the Bulletproof Vest to avoid Earth being outed for it? It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me. Maybe a bit contrived, but I think no matter what the solve is, it's probably at least a little contrived at this point.
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@ILikePie5
Good morning, everyone. Sorry for not being around to answer the investigation- I clearly don't check this site regularly enough.
As for my role, I am Federal Express Flight 705, a Conditional Vigilante. If I ever correctly guess the nightkill, I get a Vigilante charge. Which, of course, I haven't (I guessed Banana on N1 for being a universal townread and WF on N2 for being an Investigative claim).
I'm heading to church, so I'll be out for a bit, but in the meantime, I'd love to know why the Innocent Child that we spent an entire page back-and-forthing about yesterday hasn't come up yet.
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1) 4
2) 20%
(Nice.)
I wanted to do the math, but I'd rather follow the strategy we discussed and avoid muddling things. Even if this is wrong, we still get info.
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@Moozer325
It's you. In my opinion, there's not really anything going for you besides Lunatic's defense that your Day 1 was unlike last game- and I don't like underestimating people's ranges.
I admit, there could be a hell world where you're Town and the team is exactly WF/Earth, or something crazy like that, but I find that very hard to believe when you've spent most of today being passive and, from my perspective, trying to go under the radar.
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@ILikePie5
VTL Earth
Is this related to the question I asked you... 23 hours and 60 posts ago? And you're only answering now?? I don't think I threw any other questions at you since then- someone can correct me if I'm missing something there.
So just to be clear, your Innocent Child thing does have a restriction of some sort? Vote me and unvote for yes, vote yourself and unvote for no.
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@Casey_Risk
I have arrived, and will be here for the next hour or so. Could hammer, I suppose, but I'd rather not cut anyone off- especially if Casey has a final legacy for us?
...And also, I don't think we've established a firm plan for the post lynch vote.
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@whiteflame
There's the lynch and the post lynch investigation vote. I'm fine with letting Casey lead on the lynch if we end up deadlocked here, but I don't know if they'll be able to vote in the post lynch investigation. Something Casey specifically needs to check with hosts about, I think.
(As you might recall, we discussed potentially having everyone stack on one option so it's clear if we're right or wrong.)
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@Earth
Actually, potentially silly question and maybe one that's been answered. Earth, is your Miller role specifically for alignment investigations or does it extend to other investigative abilities as well?
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@Moozer325
My PoE pool basically has it down to Whiteflame/Pie.
Can you please give me a more detailed step by step of how you got here?
Specific questions I have are- why a Miller exists without a role affected by it in a WF/Pie world, how you went from believing 2 wolves were on the wagon at EOD yesterday to the 0 you believe now, and why you seem to have me and Lunatic as cleared.
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@Lunatic
I've seen him use town roleblockers and ascetics before, so it's not out of the realm of possibility three exist in a game, and it also perfectly explains moozer.
Sure, but my point is that if none of the roleblocking roles are Mafia, that seems to mean Moozer's role only exists to override Townies. Do you at least get why, from a rolelist design POV, I think that makes Moozer look wolfy?
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@Lunatic
@Casey_Risk
Oh, I was under the impression that Casey wouldn't be able to.
Casey- can you vote on the post-lynch investigation?
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Also, if we're doing the "everyone piles on one option" strategy for the post-lynch question, we should be picking who gets to decide which option we take- we want someone trustworthy who we also think would make a good decision.
(Austin hasn't explicitly stopped us from doing it, so I assume we're allowed to strategize about it beforehand.)
I think WF would be my first pick, where is everyone else on that?
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