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I mean, I would say "There's no way that someone would be that stupid," but Owen did claim Miller without a lick of irony and then tried to use that exact defense.
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@Earth
I don't think that's a good reason to townread Moozer here. There was a full 8 and a half (9?) hours left in the phase- Evening/Post-work for the US-based people here. Pie had also pinged a bunch of people, so it was pretty likely that someone was going to come in to hammer.
And also, I did say earlier that I was going to come back and explain my reads list... which also had Moozer in the bottom tier.
In my opinion, the better reason to call Moozer Town is that the "I forgot" justification is actually believable based on his playstyle. From the way I've seen Moozer play, it's not unreasonable to me that he might've gotten confused about how it worked or gotten thrown off by the Day Phase timing.
If anyone wants to chime in on the playstyle of Town Moozer vs. Scum Moozer, I'm all ears.
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Moozer's claim is bad, but I don't want to turbo kill him. I'd like to hear from more people today, especially Lunatic
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@WyIted
No, I haven't claimed, but I'll confirm my role tomorrow. All you need to know right now is that it does target someone at night.
Bullish's ability appears to be one shot, and Owen's are each listed as 1x. Strengthener doesn't imply anything about limited shots.
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@WyIted
Pie's role looks like it visits.Do we have claims from anyone who has a visiting role at all and if so who I have been a bit inattentive
Mine also does.
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@whiteflame
3 VT, 5 Town PRs? If real, then it does definitely make sense for a Goon to exist. Pie's and Bullish's (if Town) roles aren't super powerful either, so I can see this just being a low-power game all-around.
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@Lunatic
@WyIted
@Moozer325
Hi all. Good call on Owen.
I'm admittedly not completely torn up by Pie dying, because I was getting a bit worked up in my head over whether he would hellbus a partner like that for fun and profit and to try and spew himself Town- but I suppose not.
My immediate POE of WyIted/Lunatic/Moozer hasn't changed a whole lot. Though, granted, my reasoning on Moozer somewhat depended on him having stronger teammates who were steering discussion away from him. I'm willing to hold off a bit there.
WyIted hard defended and tried to nudge the vote off Owen, so from a Level 0 perspective, I think it's worthwhile to look there. He did eventually vote Owen, but only after it was clear the vote wasn't going to shift.
Lunatic has felt very off compared to last game. He feels like less of an entity who's participating and more of just a floater. I know he might be busy, but it's jarring. And Post 66 in the last phase is... not great. The justifications are waffley and there's no real stances taken that couldn't be changed on a whim.
Moozer also needs to give me more, and I'm still weirded out about the way everyone seems to be sort-of disregarding him. He was on the "obliterate Owen" ride following the claim, so I'm willing to leave him in outer POE now to post better content.
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I think Banana is hard spewed Town by Owen- I don't think anyone was actually considering her, but I wanted to say out loud that she should absolutely never be on the table today.
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Current Mafia:
Casey - Classic Movies Mafia
Signups:
None
In the Hopper:
Lunatic - Yellowstone Mafia
Earth - Paper Mario Mafia
Mharman - Gunplay Mafia
Cerulean - Albums Mafia
On Hold:
None
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(Not ordered within tiers, to be clear. Not that that should matter a whole lot.)
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Earth Banana
Bullish Austin
WF Pie
WyIted Lunatic
Owen Moozer
This is my "off the top of my head" tier list right now. Will explain a little deeper later. Moozer not getting any attention is a little interesting, though- did I miss a reason why we're townreading him?
Bullish Austin
WF Pie
WyIted Lunatic
Owen Moozer
This is my "off the top of my head" tier list right now. Will explain a little deeper later. Moozer not getting any attention is a little interesting, though- did I miss a reason why we're townreading him?
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@WyIted
I think I've ended up with Banana and Earth as my top 2 townies- Earth for the willingness to clear things up early on and Banana for the VT claim. In my opinion, evil Banana probably tries harder to come up with a fake claim than VT.
I actually think owen leans town now and
Why?
The other guy who claimed vanilla Have to reread to remember who it was but whiteflame is the stronger town read between the tw
I hate to break it to you, but that is, in fact, Banana.
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I can understand the perspective of "If I claim this, they're just gonna lynch me again" but you need a little bit more confidence in yourself. If you're a villager you need to be villagery to be found!
But I think that's about enough rambling from me about conceptual matters. Back to the game.
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@Owen_T
I thought it would be best to just keep my head down.
I said this last game. If you're not a strong townie, you need to be open and vocal about your thought process because even if you're not right, you're still being transparent enough that other villagers can find you.
Now granted I was Mafia when I was saying that but it still rings true. I'm not sure why you would think keeping your head down is a good idea when you also got attacked for being "blendy" last time.
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Oh, an abbreviated phase. That's... not what I was expecting. But sure, it's still another 36 hours.
We've got Bullish role (but not alignment) confirmed now. Thoughts on giving a Day for them to lead?
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@Bullish
Well, there's one guaranteed VT according to the OP, so unless someone else is holding that and waiting, at least one is confirmed Town.
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@Bullish
This is why I dislike midday EODs.
in a 2v1 lylo scenario one of the players has to vote for themselves for my ability to work
Sure, but it could still work in a 4v3 or 3v2 LyLo, right? As long as the people cross voting aren't you.
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@Lunatic
FOS pie.
I guess the question is whether Pie would try to ram through the exact same strategy- throwing all the less active low hanging fruit to the vote- as the strategy employed last game.
(And, to be fair, Vanilla Town claims *are* a bit scary in that no actions are expected of them and they have a solid excuse for being alive late game, so I wouldn't 100% write off WF or Banana.)
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@Moozer325
Yes, I noticed from last game that Owen seems very easy to chop as both Town and Mafia- so I'm not fully on board with hammering him today, but I do think a full claim should be productive.
I'm curious, does anyone have a meta read on how Owen behaves differently as Town vs. Mafia if he's always at least a little scummy?
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@Owen_T
Agree that Owen should claim- hopefully, it's not something weird like Inventor Rolestopper this time.
VTL Owen for full claim.
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@Moozer325
Why do you prefer Banana, Moozer?
My take at the moment is to use Bullish's ability on someone- Owen or Banana are both fine to me and I wouldn't be devastated to lose either if Bullish has been bluffing this whole time.
I don't have any strong feelings on anyone right now and would prefer the extra time so I can form more coherent thoughts on everyone.
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I don't have any major lynch preferences at the moment- we could use Bullish's ability just to check it and give us some more time to discuss. In particular, so we don't have to shrug-yeet anyone for the sole crime of being inactive.
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@Earth
Cerulean is really powerful this game.
..Do you mean Bullish? I mean, I would love to believe I'm "powerful" in any capacity, but I haven't talked about my role at all.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
As for why Cerulean's my scum buddy, come on: we have to keep the colors together.
All we need now is Charcoal and we've got a solid color palette going.
Hm, a Governor that can simply restart the day is actually *extremely* powerful, because it basically gives town a free win if the-Governor survives to LYLO without claiming-The Governor doesn't get wagoned in LYLO
This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking.
The skipping the night phase is the part that makes me a little bit nervous, because I imagine the host would add that element to a Mafia version of the role to avoid letting them have a free nightkill.
There's no point in pressuring someone who isn't here, but if Bullish pops in, I'll press him, although I think he'll comply.This logic is what makes it good strategybfornscum to just ignore the dp. Is that a strategy we should reward?
Inactives get pushed too. Here, watch this: VTL Banana.
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There is actually one amusing use of that I can imagine, depending on if you're allowed to queue actions, but it requires hiding the role until LyLo, so... not viable here.
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@Bullish
Yes, that's what I thought. The justification there is at least pretty believable.
Skipping the Night entirely is an interesting component of that ability- I've seen a "Veto the lynch" role before, but never combined with that. Doesn't really progress the game much beyond confirming your role.
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Mm. Fair enough, although there are several Town-aligned roles related to lynches that might also apply to a legal movie.
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Well, the character, at least. If my snap assumption upon reading that was wrong, I suppose that just makes me uncultured.
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@ILikePie5
Surely you realize that Bullish's claim is obvious?
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@Bullish
Isn't it obvious? Casey wanted to give me a runback after I got so close to winning last game.why are you scum with whiteflame?
Anyway, Unvote.
Now that we have claims and a bit of discussion surrounding it, we can actually get into the meat of the game. At the moment, I'm cautiously townreading Pie for instigating and going through with the role claims, and I also have a slight TR on Earth for the quick claim to clear up the confusion. (I don't believe the character is fake, although it could be Mafia-aligned, I suppose).
I think I want to poke at... VTL Austin for a moment. Talking about the claims generating discussion early but not actually participating in any such discussion.
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@whiteflame
I think by the end of this game I will embarrass myself with how few of these movies I've seen or even know about (can't say I'd ever heard of The Ten Commandments or Miracle on 34th Street before today).
but it’s noteworthy that the result has strayed from the original idea without any substantial pressure on those who have claimed. (WF)
The original idea is to create conversation and use that as a jumping-off point, yes? And also to try and force scum to come up with a fake claim immediately. I don't think we've strayed too far from that.
Casey is an atheist so I just assume anything christain is scummy (WyIted)We get it you are miracle on 34th street. Who cares. I buy your claim anyway (WyIted)
So Christmas movies aren't Christian enough to be suspicious by that logic? I guess I buy it. Christmas is so commercialized these days...
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@Bullish
@iamanabanana
Woe is me, for I am irrevocably and totally doomed. My soul is forfeit. My heart is shattered to a million pieces. My mind is degenerated to a mere husk of its former glory.Next person to post is gayLooks like Cerulean is... 0.o
...
Anyway, Unvote and VTL Bullish instead.
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@WyIted
VTL EARTHmod psych
What do you mean by this? You don't think Casey would include that as a "Classic" movie?
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@whiteflame
A movie is a movie, there's a lot of things it could be, so I'm not feeling too bad about outing mine.
After last game and realizing how annoying it is to actually come up with a fake claim on this forum, I do definitely agree we should at least be getting some information from everyone so they can't weasel their way out later.
With that in mind... VTL Whiteflame. A little pressure never hurt anyone.
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@Earth
Ah, okay. I guess I might as well say mine too, since I've practically hard claimed the movie already. I'm Spartacus- thought something might have happened with the "I am Spartacus! I am Spartacus!" scene.
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@Earth
It's more ancient.
I doubt Casey gave us the same movie if that's what you are asking.
That's why I called it ridiculous, but from the one scene I know about this movie it... could maybe be a thing? And me saying that probably outs the movie exactly, but I think I can live with that.
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@Earth
That's... interesting.
Do you think Casey did something a little ridiculous? If you know what I mean.
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Starting the game in the middle of my D&D session, hm? I see how it is.
My character is 1955-1960, War Epic.
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@iamanabanana
Yeah, sorry about that Banana. Hope I haven't put you off too much about playing Mafia. You were easier to push because your role fit a you!scum narrative better, particularly with the "An investigative villager was interfered with Night 1" info from Day 2.
I was trying to apply the idea that a story that both gets you fully from Point A to Point B in an easy to understand way and is presented confidently is sometimes considered convincing enough to be evidence on its own. Didn't work here, huh?
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@Lunatic
Just to be clear, Pie "quitting" was at least a little strategic. He was pretty sure he was outed regardless and wanted to frame it in a light that made Banana look bad. He was still helping a lot behind the scenes with phrasing and proofreading posts.
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I'm not going to write a whole long essay about this game, because I'm sure that's already what Austin is doing. I'm willing to post a link to the scum Discord if Pie is for people to see what was going on in there.
From my point of view, at least, it definitely did seem townsided with how much info there was. But it was certainly still winnable. The Conditional Vigilante claim and the way I played it was what lost Mafia the game, as far as I can tell- WF and Lunatic both said they didn't really have a behavioral scumread on me at all until I claimed. Hence the whole, "I'm never going to get an easy townread here again" thing.
I don't want to get too deep into the mech marshes, but Pie and I were both pretty solidly under the impression that WF had been hard confirmed by the EOD2 information, which is why we ended up deciding on trying to set the narrative up against Banana starting Day 3. It wasn't meant to target her because she was new, but because her role was the hardest to clear. I hope you don't take my hard push on you personally, Banana.
We did consider pivoting to WF mid-Day 4, but I was more confident I could write a solid case on Banana than a solid case on WF. I'm not really sure it would have changed the outcome, because WF would still have been able to make the points about my claim being weird.
.
I did make two scum slips over the course of the game. Not sure if anyone noticed them, but:
- At EOD1, I voted Two. This was a slip/partially outing because I'd indicated before that I was reasonably confident that Owen/Moozer wagons had at least one scum.
- During Day 2, in one post of my "catch-up," you might notice that it pings Earth, WF, and Pie. But nothing I say there is actually directed at Pie. This was a mistake, because I'd edited the post to remove a part directed at Pie that he didn't want in thread yet. I removed that part of the post, but missed the ping.
I'll take any other questions about my play this game if anyone has them.
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I suppose I'll never get an easy townread on this site again, huh?
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@whiteflame
The very last refresh before I went to sleep. Okay. Last post to hopefully not lose this game, I guess.
His legacy role is particularly strange.
Several of the legacies are pretty underpowered and/or situational, to be honest. Moozer's is minor information that has a good shot of being useless. Lunatic's is completely useless unless someone is janitored/tailored before he dies (which it doesn't even look like scum had?) or unless Pie died first. Owen's is also useless unless both he and his invention targets survive to tell a tale. My point with Banana is that it's the only one that's a direct continuation of the role- all of the others are more creative.
If I may get meta for a second, it doesn't really make sense why Austin would write a rolecard with a justification for why Banana is a Roleblocker... and then write a Legacy justification for why she gets another shot at it later.
An absence of detail seems like a common flaw.
I think there was a misunderstanding, now that I'm more closely reading how you're interpreting my role, and frankly, that's my fault for not being abundantly clear about exactly what it does. What happens is that I choose a target. It is a visit, but I picked Lunatic because I suspected that the Ascetic might have been a bluff and he was actually just Bulletproof. If they are targeted by the Mafia nightkill, I get a bullet, which can be used on a later night. It does not go off the night that I use it. I thought "I get a Vigilante charge." made it clear that it was for the future, not immediate.
- His softclaim back in DP2 doesn’t make sensebased on what we now know his role to be. He said this back then:
“Me claiming would make my role effectively worthless.”
If I were to claim a role like that, I would either get killed (making it worthless) or, I imagine, Mafia would start playing games with the nightkill explicitly to screw with me. That's why I wanted to wait.
(If you want more proof about my claim, I sort of slipped it Day 1 talking about additional nightkills and I also intentionally softed my role type Day 2 when I was talking to Pie.)
that doesn’t make sense of whyhe’s still alive. If an RB is an odd choice to leave alive, a Conditional Vigwith a dwindling number of plausible targets is even stranger, since they canend the game during the NP. Strange that Cerulean’s never noted that.
By Night 3, there wouldn't have been enough time for me to get a shot off if the Mafia was reading my role correctly. And if they were reading it incorrectly like you did, they might have assumed that I would do it with myself as the guess that Night, following my claim. But in any case, I was pretty clearly left alive because almost everyone had an expressed suspicion on me. You said it was me or you. Lunatic said it was me or you. Earth said it was me or Banana. So a scum Banana benefits from killing Earth there and hoping me, you, and Lunatic would fight it out today.
In the end, it comes down to which you think is more believable- scum having a JOAT with investigation disrupting abilities and a Godfather who has a many-use Delay ability (because remember, I would have needed to both delay you N1 and delay Banana N3 in this world), or Pie coaching Banana into making a claim that looks good and Banana coasting on a consensus townread for most of the game until the POE got narrow and the Lawyer was actually necessary. And I think even from an outside perspective, one of these is significantly more convincing than the other.
Good night, and good luck, I suppose.
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@whiteflame
I'm intending to sleep in 30-45 minutes because I have an unfortunately early day tomorrow. WF, if you have any last questions for me, ask me soon. Sad that we didn't end up getting a chance to real-time.
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You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true.
(This quote, part 2)
Okay, expanding on the Day 3 Earth thing.
Banana had exactly 1 post on Day 3, which is this:
I roleblocked earth, since he didn't have an active role, I figured it might catch him in a lie. But if you are saying you were the night kill, then maybe earth is really town, or the passive mafia role. Can you role block a passive role?
Which, okay, let's break this down.
First "it might catch him in a lie" and "maybe earth is really town" are... usually not something you say about someone you townread. It's still not really clear who you even thought was scum at that point and why you didn't block them instead if you thought Earth was Town all along.
But more importantly, this seems like a pretty heavy TMI (too much information). Banana seems to be flat-out assuming in this post that Lunatic is telling the truth about the BPV. There's no wondering about "Well, maybe I did block Earth from doing the nightkill, and Lunatic is lying..." There's no fleshed out thoughts here, no paranoia, no wondering, Banana's just flat-out saying "Oh, you got attacked? Cool, I guess that's what happened." (That's a little exaggerated, but I hope you understand my point.)
Generally, when you're a newbie Town player, the best thing you can do is be as transparent about your thought process as possible. Because while you may not have the knack for catching and casing scum, you can at least try and make yourself obvious. While I respect that Banana does indeed have a life beyond DART and Mafia, most of the posts she made after Day 1 didn't show any real chain of thought or the sort of messy thinking you would expect from a newb Towny. It's more aligned with a Mafia member who's afraid to post because it's hard to come up with a thought process that looks "real."
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
Alright, let's go point by point.
He has already decided that I am mafia and is making a case against me to fit his own narrative. Does he do this as town? Whiteflame is by far not confirmed either so it makes no sense for him to do this. This is why I think cerulean is probably mafia and trying to go for me, the weaker, easier target. I don't know all the terminology and mafia lingo so he thinks he can bully me into getting lynched because of this. He might be right, but I am going to go down fighting!
Most of this is an appeal to emotion. But more importantly, I explicitly left the door open for you to tell me why I'm wrong. I offered to explain anything that might be confusing. The reason I wrote a lengthy narrative is because the roles in this game are kind of weird and there's a lot of mechanical info to trudge through, so I assembled the solve/explanation that made the most sense to me both mechanically and socially.
If you look at the mafia guide posted by earth the roles listed there are: Goon, Godfather, Stalker, Politician, Lawyer, and Busdriver." So unless you thought I was going to claim any of those roles, it was fairly obvious that I was claiming Roleblocker very early from my first post.
Bus Driver is a villager role (Transporter) in Town of Salem, which is a pretty popular Mafia site. It's not unreasonable to me that if you were going to claim something in the "scum role" list, you could leave the door open for that possibility. The last game I had here, there was a JOAT with a Bus Driver charge, so it's certainly plausible.
As of right now the POE is still the same, whiteflame, and pie were not on the lynch. We know pie was mafia and whiteflame's alignment is still up in the air, so from my POV this is still a town move to vote 0 here.
Your last POE that you posted in Day 1 was Owen, WF, Pie, Casey. You also explicitly said you had a problem with Casey a couple of posts later. Why is this omitted from your explanation?
I literally Roleblocked a mafia member night phase one. And that is an alibi? What?!
...Yes? Because by doing that, it would be a soft "Pie couldn't have carried the nightkill last night, meaning he's less likely to be Mafia." Even unstated, the implication is still there. Or at least, it was until Moozer revealed the Strengthen.
And I claimed this immediately in my first post, there was tracking roles at the time that could have caught me in a lie if I was lying. So for your narrative spin to work here, you are operating under the assumption that I got super duper lucky to not be caught by casey, and even luckier still that casey was the night kill target.
Your first post was an hour and a half after Casey claimed her investigation, no luck necessary. If she had claimed something like "Pie wasn't visited last Night," you could've pivoted elsewhere like Earth or Lunatic and say that you were checking to make sure their claims held up.
Hey you got me here. Evil old banana, laughing maniacally and twisting my invisible evil villain mustache as I purposely just have an actual life away from you nerds. I was probably watching netflix or something, but no, as you say, yeah totally intentional. Literally don't even know how to respond to this without laughing at the absurdity of it.
Fine, I'll take the dig at me. But you cast the hammering vote. You knew there would be an investigation. There's hardly an excuse to miss it when it was open for that long.
You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true.
That's exactly the point, that you didn't have any suspicion on Earth even after the block. I'm going to put this one on hold because I actually wanted to write a longer post about it- I think it's a pretty critical point.
I don't even recall ceru ever scum reading me prior to this actual day phase.
My take at the moment is that it's Banana and Pie is also frustrated about them not Playing The Game as much but I haven't done a real close look on how that mech would work yet. It feels like we have enough info to piece it together, though. (Me, Day 3)
By the way, WF read this part, do scum in DART get to talk in their chat after they die? Asking because this is a pretty decent wall for someone's.. first? Second? game.
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Ah.
No point in waiting to cross, I suppose.
VTL Banana
I'm going to assume you're not slowrolling as scum, WF, because that would be cruel and unusual punishment. Let's see what Banana said...
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