(IFF) Deism is true (THEN) what?

#121

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

3

5

EtrnlVw

01.02.2019 06:26PM

3

5

01.02.2019 06:26PM

-->

@janesix

If Jesus is real, I certainly want to know and believe.

It's all about application not religion. What Jesus teaches is to be applied, they are spiritual based principles and just apply whatever you think is applicable. That is better than anything an institution can bring to the table. This is not about beliefs but application. If being involved in a collective way is something you desire then that's fine too, just depends what you are looking for. But fellowship is fellowship, application is another thing. When all the chips fall, all that matters is what you did, not what you believed. Just put your heart into your quest and apply things to yourself. Jesus is very simple in what he teaches, it's easy to see when he is instructing you to apply something.

#122

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.02.2019 06:42PM

3

4

7

01.02.2019 06:42PM

-->

@EtrnlVw

You know, I would have been saved from a great deal of trouble had I had found the church earlier in my walk rather than going the anarchy way.

There is no Christianity without the church. Even monastics and recluses have the church.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Faith and works are very much a part of eachother. I would not discourage someone from seeking out guidance. That is why we have priests. If nothing else, it is a way to combat haughtiness.

#123

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.02.2019 06:45PM

3

4

7

01.02.2019 06:45PM

-->

@3RU7AL

What I am saying is, a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. You cannot serve two masters.

Do you love God more or your idols? I wouldn't ask you to give all your money to the church. If you wanted to do that, I wouldn't discourage you either.

Topic's author

#124

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.02.2019 07:04PM

3

4

9

01.02.2019 07:04PM

-->

@Mopac

There is no Christianity without the church.

Does the bible teach that people must attend weekly services?

Did Jesus go to church?

#125

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.02.2019 07:16PM

3

4

7

01.02.2019 07:16PM

-->

@3RU7AL

Jesus and even the apostles after him taught in the synagogues. They observed the sabbath. They observed passover. Not only can all this be seen in The New Testament, but in historical writings from the church.

James The Just was even killed at the temple. He was known for his piety among the Jews, and spent a great deal of time praying at the temple. He was asked to rebuke the Christians. He did the opposite of what they thought he was going to do, so they murdered him on the spot. He was the first Bishop of Jerusalem.

Topic's author

#126

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.02.2019 08:06PM

3

4

9

01.02.2019 08:06PM

-->

@Mopac

Does the bible teach that people must attend weekly services? - No

Did Jesus go to church? - No

Do Christians attend or teach at Synagogues? - No

Do Christians observe the Sabbath - No

#127

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.02.2019 08:21PM

3

4

7

01.02.2019 08:21PM

-->

@3RU7AL

That is easily refuted by reading the gospels and the book of acts.

Topic's author

#128

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.02.2019 08:38PM

3

4

9

01.02.2019 08:38PM

-->

@Mopac

That is easily refuted by reading the gospels and the book of acts.

Can you please be more specific?

#129

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.02.2019 10:44PM

3

4

7

01.02.2019 10:44PM

-->

@3RU7AL

Luke 4:14-15

"And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all."

And there are actually many instances where the scenes depicted in the Gospels actually take place in synagogues. In fact, there is a scene not much later in Luke where Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah in a synagogue!

Jesus and his disciples were all observant Jews.

Topic's author

#130

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.02.2019 10:58PM

3

4

9

01.02.2019 10:58PM

-->

@Mopac

Jesus and his disciples were all observant Jews.

So all Christians should be observant Jews and attend Synagogues and observe the Sabbath?

#131

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.03.2019 12:47AM

3

4

7

01.03.2019 12:47AM

-->

@3RU7AL

No, and a lot of this stuff was sorted out in the early church.

We Orthodox do recognize Saturday as the Sabbath, but we do usually have a liturgy on Sunday. At my parish, we do have a vespers on Saturday which I attend every week.

A lot of these things are actually explained in the new testament, particularly the letters written by Paul.

#132

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

3

5

EtrnlVw

01.03.2019 01:10AM

3

5

01.03.2019 01:10AM

Let's not forget the real Jesus of the Gospels was not some pew warmer, quite literally his opposition WAS religious people and the religious establishment. Jesus was raised a Jew and was faithful to his heritage but at the same time he came to change all of that and certainly singlehandedly resurfaced the face of religion.

The "church" was never at any point some religious sect or institution, it was always the people themselves. Let us not get things twisted. The Epistles do say not to forsake the assembly but that has nothing to do with putting ones trust in any organization. The Gospels are about application to help get the individual connected to the Divine, the spiritual aspect of themselves. On a collective level we should also be involved with one another, but again this reference of the church is the people, us, you and all of us as individuals. WE are what make the church, not the other way around. For whatever reason people have been fixated on dividing themselves from other believers, that is not what the teachings of the Gospels or the Epistles call for, rather unity is strictly what the orders of the people are....or what we should be striving for.

#133

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.03.2019 02:58AM

3

4

7

01.03.2019 02:58AM

-->

@EtrnlVw

Yes, this is a common protestant/secularist viewpoint that I even bought into for a while but there actually is a Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church, and it is The Orthodox Church.

The church has priests and bishops. Not only can this be seen in the new testament, but the earliest writings of the church make it very clear that this was always the case.

And the anarchy of protestantism is where that type of thinking leads. I will take the church founded by the apostles over the churches of heretics who are only truly united in their opposition to Orthodoxy. For us to say, hold an ecumenical council with heretics would be absolutely unheard of and could only serve to compromise the integrity of our church which has carried The Truth for thousands of years faithfully even to this day.

We do not share the same faith.

If these protestants really cared about unity, they would join the historic church that they are two steps detached from! Indeed, many do. There are at least 3 former pastors at my parish who lead churches for over 20 years. They came to Orthodoxy because all the evidence points to it as being the true historic church. That is what lead me there!

Topic's author

#134

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.04.2019 02:57PM

3

4

9

01.04.2019 02:57PM

-->

@Mopac

The church has priests and bishops. Not only can this be seen in the new testament, but the earliest writings of the church make it very clear that this was always the case.

Please give specific examples.

I'm quite sure there are no catholic style priests or bishops mentioned in the bible...

Ah, ok, wait a minute...

https://www.catholic.com/qa/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned

Ok, so it looks like, according to the experts, that "priest" "bishop" "preacher" "presbyter" "minister" and "deacon" and "christian" and "believer" and "follower" all mean the exact same thing.

Actually according to the New Testament all believers are a priesthood unto themselves and all are ministers.

That is the way it should be in all churches. However most denominational churches have standards set by their denomination.

I think each state may have regulations concerning legal tax exempt ministries, but as far as someone claiming to be a minister, our freedom of religion forbids states from inter fearing.

If a person wants to be a minister and start his or her own church, It should be their choice.

Jesus chose the twelve disciples and then seventy preachers, but other than that we have no scriptural evidence that there ever was any kind of ordination.

The duty of a priest is to come before God on a person or persons behalf and when Jesus died and rose from the dead each believer is now able to do that their self and thus is a minister, and priest in their own right. The bible calls the believers a royal priesthood see 1 Peter 2:9 The New Testament also calls each believer a minister. [LINK]

#135

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.04.2019 04:16PM

3

4

7

01.04.2019 04:16PM

-->

@3RU7AL

All of this is explained very clear in Church tradition actually.

It wasn't even a 100 years before bishop and priest came to be seperate offices. A deacon was never the same thing as a priest.

It is important to note that while we are indeed a nation of priests, there is a difference in office between someone who is an elder and leader of congregation and someone who is a layman. This is very clear even in The New Testament.

And I used to buy into this anarchistic interpretation you seem to have until I actually did some studying. The earliest church certainly had bishops. My Church's first bishop was Saint Ignatius, and his writings which date back to the first century make it very clear that there is a distinction. The church has always had leaders.

Sure anyone can start their own church, but we wouldn't call it the church because it isn't the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, which is The Orthodox Church, and we have Holy Orders. They came from us, but they aren't of us. They are schismatics and heretics. The nice word is heterodox, but I personally think that is giving these "churches" too much credit.

And fyi, you in your haste neglected to read anything beyond the question in your first link. Your second link is YAHOO ANSWERS.

But what you expressing is a very protestant attitude, even though most protestant churches still aren't quite as anarchistic as what you are describing.

#136

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

3

5

EtrnlVw

01.04.2019 04:44PM

3

5

01.04.2019 04:44PM

-->

@Mopac

Yes, this is a common protestant/secularist viewpoint that I even bought into for a while but there actually is a Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church, and it is The Orthodox Church.

Yeah I don't bow down to religion, only the Creator so no institution defines or controls my output and experiences. I know what you are and what you believe. Secularist is laughable though, that is so far from my paradigm it's not even funny.

The church has priests and bishops. Not only can this be seen in the new testament, but the earliest writings of the church make it very clear that this was always the case.

The mistake that has been made is to believe that a Priest or a Bishop must exist within the confines of some religious sect. No, the offices and order of the "church" is for the people, not religious groups. How do you know I'm not one of those? because I have not been ordained by some religious authority lol? nah I used to think like you do now but that day is long gone.

And the anarchy of protestantism is where that type of thinking leads. I will take the church founded by the apostles over the churches of heretics who are only truly united in their opposition to Orthodoxy. For us to say, hold an ecumenical council with heretics would be absolutely unheard of and could only serve to compromise the integrity of our church which has carried The Truth for thousands of years faithfully even to this day.

Maybe you are anarchy, not me. Ever thought about that? I know you believe I'm some heretic, blah blah try something new and stop judging people if they don't squeeze into your mold. I don't care what religious institutions do but I don't like being labeled a heretic by heretics.

We do not share the same faith.

Obviously, so what?

If these protestants really cared about unity, they would join the historic church that they are two steps detached from! Indeed, many do. There are at least 3 former pastors at my parish who lead churches for over 20 years. They came to Orthodoxy because all the evidence points to it as being the true historic church. That is what lead me there!

If you want to know what unity is described as in the scriptures go read the NT, it has nothing to do with organizations. This has always been about the people, and why Jesus went out into the midst of them and showed why religious authoritarian institutions are in contrast to true spirituality and that they are corrupt or can be corrupt. I'm not personally against anything in particular but I will argue and contend when you are off the mark.

#137

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.04.2019 04:56PM

3

4

7

01.04.2019 04:56PM

-->

@EtrnlVw

The ideas you are putting forth are fairly new and recent compared to the thousands year tradition of the church, which has remained faithful to what was passed down to them by the apostles and Jesus.

#138

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.04.2019 05:01PM

3

4

7

01.04.2019 05:01PM

-->

@EtrnlVw

Jesus was speaking of religious hypocrisy, showing the forms but lacking the spirit.

The spirit being Truth and Love.

And certainly, you could be an accidental pharisee as an Orthodox as well.

The rituals and outward forms are not what the faith is about. To the religious leaders that Jesus spoke against, this is all it was about. We Orthodox use rituals and our liturgy is very ordered. We are very meticulous that we do these things properly.. or at least should be.. but without The Holy Spirit it will be vain. We do recognize this.

Topic's author

#139

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.04.2019 05:12PM

3

4

9

01.04.2019 05:12PM

-->

@Mopac

It wasn't even a 100 years before bishop and priest came to be seperate offices.

So, in bible times, they were the same thing?

Some of them were hand-picked by the Jesus, but others, like Saul/Paul had a private, qualitative experience (no formal ordination).

All of this is explained very clear in Church tradition actually.

I am unfamiliar with "Church tradition" where would I find such a thing?

It wasn't even a 100 years before bishop and priest came to be seperate offices. A deacon was never the same thing as a priest.
It is important to note that while we are indeed a nation of priests, there is a difference in office between someone who is an elder and leader of congregation and someone who is a layman. This is very clear even in The New Testament. And I used to buy into this anarchistic interpretation you seem to have until I actually did some studying. The earliest church certainly had bishops. My Church's first bishop was Saint Ignatius, and his writings which date back to the first century make it very clear that there is a distinction. The church has always had leaders.

But those "leaders" were not "ordained" by ceremony in the bible. Your church just made up new rules out of thin air.

Sure anyone can start their own church, but we wouldn't call it the church because it isn't the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, which is The Orthodox Church, and we have Holy Orders. They came from us, but they aren't of us. They are schismatics and heretics. The nice word is heterodox, but I personally think that is giving these "churches" too much credit.

How very christian of you.

And fyi, you in your haste neglected to read anything beyond the question in your first link. Your second link is YAHOO ANSWERS.

Please explain specific inaccuracies in any of the information I've provided. The origin of the information does not make it either true or false prima facie.

But what you expressing is a very protestant attitude, even though most protestant churches still aren't quite as anarchistic as what you are describing.

I'm going to guess that you are not a fan of the Unitarians.

#140

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.04.2019 05:34PM

3

4

7

01.04.2019 05:34PM

Some of them were hand-picked by the Jesus, but others, like Saul/Paul had a private, qualitative experience (no formal ordination).

Paul would have had to be recognized and ordained by the church to have been sent out from the church of Antioch on his missionary journies.

I am unfamiliar with "Church tradition" where would I find such a thing?

I would recommend going to an Orthodox Church and looking at their library to find more info, we have a lot of really good books. But Church Tradition is that which has been passed down by the church. There is a lot about the church that is not contained in scripture. The canon are writings that we can use during church services.

There is no one book callled "church tradition", but it can be found in the writings of the church fathers and in things like our liturgy, iconography, and even the bible, which is a part of church tradition.

But those "leaders" were not "ordained" by ceremony in the bible. Your church just made up new rules out of thin air.

That isn't really true, but I would like to point out that The Orthodox Church compiled the canon of scripture and that we knew what we believed before this was done. Sola scriptura is a protestant thing because they don't have church tradition. The church didn't wait around for 300 years for the bible to be canonized. There is a lot that isn't in the new testament.

Please explain specific inaccuracies in any of the information I've provided. The origin of the information does not make it either true or false prima facie

I already did.

I'm going to guess that you are not a fan of the Unitarians.

Unitarians deny the Trinity, so they are not really Christian.

Topic's author

#141

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.04.2019 06:11PM

3

4

9

01.04.2019 06:11PM

-->

@Mopac

Paul would have had to be recognized and ordained by the church to have been sent out from the church of Antioch on his missionary journies.

Is there a description of some sort of "ordination ceremony" in the actual bible or are you making a purely baseless personal speculation?

I would recommend going to an Orthodox Church and looking at their library to find more info, we have a lot of really good books. But Church Tradition is that which has been passed down by the church. There is a lot about the church that is not contained in scripture. The canon are writings that we can use during church services. There is no one book callled "church tradition", but it can be found in the writings of the church fathers and in things like our liturgy, iconography, and even the bible, which is a part of church tradition.

So, it sounds like after the Jesus skipped town, the remaining followers just fabricated "tradition" as they saw fit.

That isn't really true, but I would like to point out that The Orthodox Church compiled the canon of scripture and that we knew what we believed before this was done. Sola scriptura is a protestant thing because they don't have church tradition. The church didn't wait around for 300 years for the bible to be canonized. There is a lot that isn't in the new testament.

There is a lot of fill-in-the-blank "tradition" that was fabricated after the Jesus disappeared.

I already did.

And I thank you for that.

Unitarians deny the Trinity, so they are not really Christian.

The Trinity is not a strictly biblical concept.

So, scripture teaches us that God is both one, and at the same time three [like a holy hydra]. How can this be? First you must accept that finite man cannot fully comprehend the nature and being of an infinite God [end of discussion, if god is fundamentally unknowable, this conversation is over, buffer overrun]. The Trinity is a mystery [in other words, it is illogical and makes absolutely no sense] - we can wrestle with it, we can approach it, we can apprehend it in our hearts [what the heck?], but ultimately our mind ends up only loosely understanding, like trying to wrap your mind around the concept of infinity [quantifiable infinity is a provably false logical impossibility]. Of particular concern is trying to explain God by use of analogy, these always break down, and I have never heard one to even remotely adequate to fully picture of the Trinity as alluded to in scripture (they give us a glimpse, but taken alone the picture is nearly always of a heretical understanding) [probably because analogies are far too logical]. I have struggled with the idea of the Trinity all my journey, but recently I read Frank Sheed's Theology and Sanity, which I found very helpful. He does not attempt to explain by analogy, but describes God as being one nature shared by three persons [just like this or maybe perhaps kinda sorta a little more like this].

[LINK]

#142

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.04.2019 06:24PM

3

4

7

01.04.2019 06:24PM

-->

@3RU7AL

If you are going to have evil suspicions, by all means, believe what the heretics say.

But we Orthodox know what we believe, we have it very well documented, and we have been watching the other "churches" close enough to see where their errors come from.

Topic's author

#143

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3

4

9

3RU7AL

01.04.2019 06:28PM

3

4

9

01.04.2019 06:28PM

-->

@Mopac

If you are going to have evil suspicions, by all means, believe what the heretics say.

I'm pretty sure both "evil" and "heretics" don't exist.

#144

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

3

4

7

Mopac

01.04.2019 06:49PM

3

4

7

01.04.2019 06:49PM

-->

@3RU7AL

Sounds arbitrary.

#145

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

3

5

EtrnlVw

01.04.2019 06:54PM

3

5

01.04.2019 06:54PM

-->

@Mopac

"And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all."

And there are actually many instances where the scenes depicted in the Gospels actually take place in synagogues. In fact, there is a scene not much later in Luke where Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah in a synagogue!

Jesus and his disciples were all observant Jews.

Seriously, that is all you got to support religious authoritarian fabrications?

When you read the Gospels first of all, Jesus went into synagogues to study scripture as a young man, and as a matter of fact it says he was teaching there as well. He was not there to appease religious authorities and kiss their butts and follow their programs, He was there because there was something he was interested in and it had nothing to with religious systems. As soon as Jesus went into his ministry he went out into the people and left that garbage behind, he didn't go join the Hierarchy of religious authority he did the opposite. Jesus never set up a religious institution he went where the ordinary people were and hung out with them and taught them with power and love. There was no religious authority there claiming who could do this and who could do that and who is appointed to this and that through

"their clubs" other than the Master. Guess what? he was killed by the religious authorities because Jesus did not subjugate himself to that and was taunted and eventually murdered. Basically TBPH Jesus was murdered for the same message Hindus teach. Isn't that interesting? was Jesus more of a guru than some religious snob authority figure? I think so.

The gifts of the spirit as well as the offices of the "church" ( the people!) were and are to develop some order amongst the people. These are reserved for those more mature and who have committed themselves and are able to lead by example....but it is the people who ordain them not some religious authority who only is in that position because of some "tradition". You defy Jesus Himself believing all that tripe religious baloney organizations set up, then turn around and divide themselves from other believers. The whole thing is a mess from start to finish. If people would just grow up, take on the settings of the Gospels and go out non-judgemental and show love to the common people and stop being a proud arrogant religious snobs Jesus might not be hated so much and honestly could probably change the world. Who could hate the Man in the Gospels? he actually cared about the people the religious snobs rejected because they think everyone is a heretic and they cast them to the dogs. Disgusting really, show me where in the Gospels of any of Jesus' settings of fellowship where it looks like anything you see in mainstream institutions. No not at all, the Gospels paint a much different picture don't they Mopac? bricks that makes church building for certain religious groups is not at all what church is in the Gospels and there is no religious sect that gets to claim dibs on the Gospels. I've been applying them on my own accord since I was young. They are as much mine as anyone's. You don't get to claim them and neither does any religion get to claim them. They are the individuals, not organizations.

#146

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

3

5

EtrnlVw

01.04.2019 06:57PM

3

5

01.04.2019 06:57PM

-->