The hamas charter

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ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.13.2023 08:03PM

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Here is the hamas charter from when it was formed but I will summarize a few points for the people who think hamas is fighting for Palestinians.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Here is where they explain why negotiations will never be accepted.

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

Articles 21 and after is where most of the antisemitism is contained and outlines a generic plan for eradicating Israel or what thy call restoring palestine and murdering all Jews . It also details a conspiracy theory where jews are working with freemasonry and even rotary clubs against Islam.

Just read it for yourself. Ithas nothing to do with helping Palestinians. It's only about setting up an extreme Islamic state and eradicating every infidel in the area, including jews Christians and even fellow Muslims who just happen to disagree with the.

Below is the statement justifying attacks on women and children by falsely claiming Israelites have done the same.

In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder.

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ponikshiy

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10.13.2023 08:06PM

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10.13.2023 08:06PM

Words of hamas directly

"Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

"The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

"Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

"The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth."

Statement from Hamas Ministry of Refugee Affairs on U.N. Relief and Works Agency plan to include Holocaust education in the curriculum taught Palestinian refugees, February 28, 2011

“We cannot agree to a programme that is intended to poison the minds of our children…Holocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people."

Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010

"The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine."

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org

"We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land...

"Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "

Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009

Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists."

Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, December 28, 2008

"We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before."

Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008

"This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions."

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood."

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, December 25, 2008

"Israel will pay a heavy price for its crimes against the Palestinians. Israel's actions enhance our determination to pursue the path of resistance through all means available. … [Israel is] committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn't lift a finger to stop it."

Leaflet issued by Izzadin Kassam, the armed wing of Hamas, December 25, 2008

"We won't succumb to the logic of threats made by the Zionist war criminals. Today we are prepared more than ever to foil any aggression against our people."

Hamas leader Ayman Taha, December 22, 2008

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks."

Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies

[The economic crisis is the result of] "bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby."

[The Jewish lobby] "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy."

Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007

"...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs]."

Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."

Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path."

Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, April 17, 2006

"[The Tel Aviv suicide bombing] is an an act of self defense... [it is] a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people."

Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida

"[Hamas will] never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land."

Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz

"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]."

Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters

"They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed... We say Hamas will not change its constant principles."

Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain

"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem."

Ismail Hanieh, Hamas leader, January 18, 2006, AP

"Hamas is not hostile to Jews because they are Jews. We are hostile to them because they occupied our land and expelled our people.... We did not say we want to throw the Jews in the sea or feed them to sharks. We just said that there is a land called occupied Palestine. It was burglarized and it needs to be returned to the Palestinian people."

Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday

"We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land.... We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up."

Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas' platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring

"The program [of Hamas-backed list to legislative council] sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the [Hamas] charter talks about vision and strategy…The movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the [Hamas] charter."

Dr. Mahmoud Zahar, interview in Arabic with elaph.com, October 11, 2005, MEMRI

"The Taliban are 1,000 times more honorable than the American occupation and its collaborators… We are not a copy of the Taliban... Judge us according to what we are. Everyone must stop blaming the Taliban for things that in fact characterize the people of the West, who seek to turn the international community into a swamp of corruption and destruction, and to spread abomination and disease in the name of absolute freedom...."

"We are part of Allah's promise that Islam will enter Palestine and every home in the world, with a revelation of the power of Allah the Omnipotent, and a revelation of the inferiority of the infidels. Hamas is leading this plan in Gaza, the West Bank, and the 1948 territories, and the Muslim Brotherhood is leading it everywhere else. This is part of Allah's predestination."

Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI

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#3

ponikshiy

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"The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."

Mushir al-Masri, Hamas spokesman, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI

"We stand here on our liberated land, near the armistice borders. We remember when Sharon said that Netzarim is like Tel Aviv. Hamas has said, via the lion of Palestine [Rantisi], that Gaza is like Tel Aviv. The promise that has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled in the future, oh Sharon, is the promise of Allah, and the promise of Hamas. Behold, Palestine is being liberated, Allah willing..."

"We have come here in multitudes to proclaim that Hirbiya and Ashkelon will be taken by the mujahideen. We have come here to say that the weapons of the resistance that you see here will remain, Allah willing, so that we can liberate Palestine – all of Palestine – from the Sea to the River, whether they like it or not."

Hamas leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi (killed in April 2004) at a rally in Gaza, March 28, 2004, AP

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God, and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon."

Hamas statement issued after the assassination of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Chicago Tribune, March 25, 2004

"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime. All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime."

Musa Abu Marzuq, Hamas leader, interview with Reuters, March 25, 2004

"We have never targeted an American target or American interests despite its hostility. Until now we did not. I am talking about now. In the future, God knows."

Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, at funeral of Reem Raiyshi, who murdered 4 people, January 15, 2004, AP

"She [first Hamas woman suicide bomber] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."

Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin (killed in March 2004), January 30, 2003, Teheran Times

"America is implementing Zionist Israeli policy to serve the Zionist project in Palestine. The battle America is undertaking is designed to allow Israel to remain in the Palestinian homeland...."

"Zionist Israeli and Jewish policy is to strike every power emerging in the Arab and Muslim world… Any country that develops power threatening to this entity (Israel), they want to smash it."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with the Muslim website Alskifa, January 10, 2003, translated by Israel Defense Forces

"Suicide attacks and jihad reinforce national unity in the ranks....Our voice is one of struggle, of jihad and of suicide....Iraq could win if it equipped its citizens with explosive belts and turned them into human bombs."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with Australian Muslim youth magazine, Nida'ul Islam, June/ July 2002

"We reject this US domination and this frantic war. From our side, we concentrate on striking blows to it here in Palestine, with the aim of ironing out the Jewish entity in Palestine, which is the cause of trouble in the world..."

"America... always works in favor of the existence of the Israeli entity... This is mainly due to the Zionist-Christian conviction and the 70 million Americans who follow the Protestant creed, which is in favor of Jews against the Muslims. The same applies to most of Britain's population..."

"Because the Israeli and American enemies are ravaging the earth; they do not believe in anything besides power. The Ummah must adopt the principle of Jihad and fighting the enemies."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview, Palestine-info, March 2001, Early Hamas communiqués (distributed by Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Movement within two months [after the intifada broke] was able to launch qualitative operations that shook the world… there are qualitative Jihad operations such as those in Natanya and Khadera. We are proud of such operations and the next days will witness better and bigger ones...."

"I say that the final battle will result in our victory and that this land will reject this enemy similar to its predecessors..."

"It is not a must that it would be in 2027 for it could be five years earlier or ten years later. The important thing is that the equation revolves round 2027 and the Hebrew state would end Insha'allah [God willing]."

Hamas communiqué, March 9, 1989, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine

"Come to jihad, come to jihad, come to martyrdom..."

"Those thirsty for Jihad all over the world. For the sake of Allah. For liberating the land of Palestine and Jerusalem...."

"We declared and continue to declare now, that a Jew is a Jew... [do not trust them when they say they want peace because they act only] to serve their religion and their people."

Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine

"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."

Hamas communiqué, September 8, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine

"The Nazi Jews tried different methods..."

"Let everyone know that Hamas... is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner... it realizes the Jews' methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people..."

"We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible [to commemorate Muhammad's defeat of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia]."

Anti-Defamation League

https://www.adl.org/resources/news/hamas-their-own-words

#4

Best.Korea

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10.13.2023 08:07PM

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@ponikshiy

by falsely claiming Israelites have done the same

Yeah, thats a false claim.

Israeli havent done the same. They have done far worse, and they are the occupator who has killed thousands of Palestinian civilians and stole their land.

"Same" lol

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#5

ponikshiy

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10.13.2023 08:09PM

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@oromagi

Can you ban this idiot for openly supporting terrorism?

#6

FLRW

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10.13.2023 08:19PM

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At least 583 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli military offensive on Gaza, representing one-third of the total death toll, with casualty count rapidly rising as Israeli authorities seal Palestinians in Gaza off from food, fuel, electricity, water, and medical supplies.

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#7

ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.13.2023 08:27PM

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@FLRW

See this thread for more context https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9981-videos-and-photos-of-the-original-hamas-attack-that-preceded-israels-self-defense

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#8

ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.13.2023 08:28PM

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10.13.2023 08:28PM

It sucks that children are dying due to the fact hamas is holding every resident of Gaza hostage. Hopefully hamas will do an unconditional surrender to spare lives

#9

Best.Korea

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10.13.2023 08:31PM

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@ponikshiy

Israel should just surrender.

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FLRW

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10.13.2023 08:39PM

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@ponikshiy

Who do you think is more powerful, Yahweh or Allah ?

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FLRW

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10.13.2023 08:44PM

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@ponikshiy

Hezbollah deputy chief Naim Qassem said on Friday that the group would not be swayed by calls for it to stay on the sidelines of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, saying the party was "fully ready" to contribute to the fighting.
"The behind-the-scenes calls with us by great powers, Arab countries, envoys of the United Nations, directly and indirectly telling us not to interfere will have no effect," he told supporters gathered in the southern Beirut suburb for a rally.

Remember that Trump said that Hezbollah was very smart.

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#12

ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.13.2023 08:49PM

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@FLRW

Remember that Trump said that Hezbollah was very smart

What does his analysis of their leadership's IQ thus? have anything to do with this?

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#13

ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.13.2023 08:51PM

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@FLRW

Who do you think is more powerful, Yahweh or Allah ?

Well since they are both Abraham's religions, this would be a tie

#14

FLRW

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10.13.2023 09:23PM

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@ponikshiy

It's actually Abrahamic religions , but you are correct.

#15

Vegasgiants

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10.13.2023 10:13PM

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@Best.Korea

That is hilarious. Lol

#16

Best.Korea

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10.13.2023 10:59PM

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@Vegasgiants

It is hilarious to think you can steal land.

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Vegasgiants

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10.13.2023 11:23PM

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@Best.Korea

Of course you can

America stole a country. Lol

#18

Best.Korea

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10.13.2023 11:29PM

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@Vegasgiants

So you think its okay to steal land. Your mind is brilliant.

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Vegasgiants

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10.13.2023 11:30PM

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@Best.Korea

Yeah its great

#20

oromagi

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10.14.2023 04:41PM

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@ponikshiy

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@<<<oromagi>>>
Can you ban this idiot for openly supporting terrorism?

Can I ban you first for alting like a serial killer?

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#21

ponikshiy

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10.14.2023 05:33PM

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@oromagi

Can I ban you first for alting like a serial killer?

I might be gone soon anyway. This is very concerning the whole thing.

I never thought that the sort of anti semitism I am seeing, the support for terrorism would happen here. It's useful to take controversial positions but more than half of this site supports hamas under the guise of supporting the Palestinians whose lives they have destroyed and lives they will destroy.

I am a deeply empathetic person to my own detriment and the horror that these Israelis and Palestinians are facing at the hands of Hamas has me choking back tears.

I am a bitch, whatever.

I really want to do something for these suffering people but thinking of them and my inability to do shit has me feeling completely worthless.

Worse yet the type of attitude that allowed this tragedy to happen to start with has been magnified lately or at least has become more visible.

I think a lot of my world view has been shattered as a result of this whole thing as well.

The Jews have no control over this narrative emerging, and I kind of wish my prejudices were correct because they really should be controlling this narrative. Unless of course the jews controlling this narrative are too naive to realize how suicidal that action is.

Everyday I am seeing new videos of what has and is happening. It's deeply heart breaking stuff, and you have people blaming the victim. It's not the fault of Israelis that these terrorists who only care about genocide started destroying, murdering and torturing so many civilians, children, the elderly, women. I know any life lost is a tragedy but there is just something about when it is women and children that make it so much worse.

You guys can have this site. It is a shithole. There is room for controversial opinions. There is room even for debate on this whole Israel thing. We can debate whether biden's money towards Iran was a significant cause of this or whether an Israel version of the 2nd amendment could have saved lives here. We even have room to debate the ethics of Israeli settlers in the Westbank or treatment of Palestinians in general.

Yet we don't have those debates. We have debates of people trying to use circular logic to defend Hamas. We have idiots looking to conflate hamas with Palestinians so they can feel better about supporting terrorists.

I think more than half this site legitimately supports Hamas right now. It's fucking sick, and I certainly didn't expect to see it from the people I have seen it come from, which makes it even more disappointing.

I saw a lot of propaganda from al Jazeera and the middle east eye, the weeks preceeding his attack directed at me, but I thought there was no way it was having an effect, but here we are. Apparently all of the propaganda from radical Islam towards leftists has worked. The same people that would burn and torture homosexuals alive is currently being openly supported by gay rights organizations with Palestinian flags on their websites to thinly veil the actual support of hamas.

Whatever becomes of the West because of the open support of terrorism and general degenerate behavior, is well deserved. I wish I could ethically kill myself so I don't have to see how bad things are going to get, but I have an obligation to my family. Death will be much kinder than to experience what is coming for all of u.

#22

HistoryBuff

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10.14.2023 07:12PM

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@ponikshiy

I never thought that the sort of anti semitism I am seeing,

I might have more sympathy toward that statement if you hadn't also accused me of anti-semitism for pointing out that Israel has also done horrible, horrible things. They are currently killing hundreds and hundreds of children. It seems like you think criticism of Israel is the same thing as anti-semitism. And any support for innocent people being bombed by Israel is anti-semitism.

It might also be more convincing if you hadn't said this.

Then they can take a nuke to the face TBH. The world can become civilized and peaceful voluntarily or by the people who stand in the way getting nuked in the face.
I dont k ow that expulsion is needed, but if it is, it's none of the business of the country the get expelled to, if they dont like it, they can get a nuke to the face, fuckem.

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#23

ponikshiy

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10.14.2023 08:08PM

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@HistoryBuff

you hadn't also accused me of anti-semitism for pointing out that Israel has also done horrible, horrible things.

We have all done horrible things, stop making excuses for terrorism.

And any support for innocent people being bombed by Israel is anti-semitism.

I support those people as well, which is why I place the blame for that on Hamas, where it belongs. I guess the expectation is for israelr to surrender and be genocide rather than do the ugly things need to make them and the people of Gaza safe from terrorists.

It might also be more convincing if you hadn't said this.

Sorry that nations that supported genocide of Jews will need to face some harsh circumstances in th name of justice if they aren't willing to make amends.

All of your whataboutism aside, it is evil to support this shit.

#24

HistoryBuff

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10.17.2023 08:21PM

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@ponikshiy

We have all done horrible things, stop making excuses for terrorism.

If you treat people like animals for long enough, they are going to fight back. Some of them are going to use horrible, inhuman tactics. I'm not excusing terrorism. I'm explaining how Israel helps cause it.

I support those people as well, which is why I place the blame for that on Hamas, where it belongs.

lol, hamas isn't bombing them. Israel is. You can't say I support those people by supporting their murder.

I guess the expectation is for israelr to surrender and be genocide rather than do the ugly things need to make them and the people of Gaza safe from terrorists.

no, the expectation is to actually negotiate and resolve the conflict. Instead they make it worse year after year.

Sorry that nations that supported genocide of Jews will need to face some harsh circumstances in th name of justice if they aren't willing to make amends.

You said you wanted to use nuclear weapons on any country who tried to stop Israel from mass deporting all the palestinians. That has nothing to do with "genocide of jews". That has to do with you wanting Israel to commit an extremely evil crime, then commit an even greater one if anyone dares try to stop them.

All of your whataboutism aside, it is evil to support this shit.

whataboutism is when someone distracts with something unrelated or tangentially related. Like when a republican does something corrupt and you point to a democrat doing something corrupt to change the subject. Explaining that Israel's long history of mistreating the palestinians has been a main cause of the current conflict isn't whataboutism. It is very much on topic.

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#25

ponikshiy

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10.18.2023 04:52PM

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@HistoryBuff

if you treat people like animals for long enough, they are going to fight back. Some of them are going to use horrible, inhuman tactics. I'm not excusing terrorism. I'm explaining how Israel helps cause it.

You just take whatever Aljazeera feeds you without critical thought. Palestinian people are not treated like animals. They are actually more successful in Israel than non palestinians and over represented in medicine, and law among other professions. They have equal voting rights and there are elected politicians who are palestinian.

In the Gaza region billions have been spent on aid only for Hamas to steal it. If they are being treated like animals it is by the terrorist organization using them as human shields.

Let's imagine your scenario is correct and the Israeli government did treat them like animals. What then would excuse Hamas targeting the very civilians most likely to fight against that injustice, meaning liberals and leftists at a music festival? 80% of the dead israeli bodies even children have been found to have been tortured prior to death?

And why are you pissing on Palestinians by equating them and conflating them with Hamas?

lol, hamas isn't bombing them. Israel is. You can't say I support those people by supporting their murder.

Yeah I guess Israel is supposed to take no action against a military who will target them and kill their civilians over and over. When people are using human shields it doesn't mean that the ideal of justice or national security goes out the window. It just means that some of your effort to spare civilians will be in vain and that idiots will blame you instead of the people using them as human shields.

no, the expectation is to actually negotiate and resolve the conflict. Instead they make it worse year after year.

peace deal after peacedeal has been proposed. Once there was even a peace deal offering palestinians most of Israel, but it was rejected by the extremists that run their area because they want an extermination of Jews. This is their own words.

whataboutism is when someone distracts with something unrelated or tangentially related. Like when a republican does something corrupt and you point to a democrat doing something corrupt to change the subject. Explaining that Israel's long history of mistreating the palestinians has been a main cause of the current conflict isn't whataboutism. It is very much on topic.

"supporting terrorists by pointing out the civilians they targeted live in a country that sometimes created bad policies isn't whataboutism, I am just saying whatabout what Israel did that is a type of terrorism also?"

You said you wanted to use nuclear weapons on any country who tried to stop Israel from mass deporting all the palestinians

SO what? It's a bit of hyperbole. No matter what you do, it will be an imperfect solution? If a country has the military might to impose a solution that is the least bad solution on another country, so what. it's not a big deal, and we were discussing how we could get a more safer world with the threat of your nuclear capabilities, by putting palestinians and Israeli's in a better position, and this was only talked about in the context of one of a million solutions and of course many of the solutions can be partial and mixed.

#26

HistoryBuff

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10.18.2023 06:19PM

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@ponikshiy

You just take whatever Aljazeera feeds you without critical thought.

I have literally never watched or read Aljazeera.

They are actually more successful in Israel than non palestinians and over represented in medicine, and law among other professions. They have equal voting rights and there are elected politicians who are palestinian.

this would only be a valid point if the Israeli's were willing to give citizenship to all palestinians. But they aren't. They would rather die than let that happen.

In the Gaza region billions have been spent on aid only for Hamas to steal it. If they are being treated like animals it is by the terrorist organization using them as human shields.

From Hamas' perspective, which I am not saying is the correct one, they are using the only resources available to them to try to get their people freedom from Israeli slavery. From that perspective, using the aid this way is the best choice for their people. You can't understand people or try to resolve conflict if you aren't willing to look at the situation from their point of view. Something you seem to always refuse to do.

Let's imagine your scenario is correct and the Israeli government did treat them like animals. What then would excuse Hamas targeting the very civilians most likely to fight against that injustice, meaning liberals and leftists at a music festival? 80% of the dead israeli bodies even children have been found to have been tortured prior to death?

I would imagine the point is to tank israeli attempts to normalize relations with the saudis. By committing atrocities, it triggers the Israeli government to commit atrocities right back. And then that angers other arab and/or muslim countries. It would seem the goal was to remind the world how brutal Israel is since most countries have become numb to Israel's brutality.

Yeah I guess Israel is supposed to take no action against a military who will target them and kill their civilians over and over.

if they were trying to take steps to resolve the issue and still being attacked, you would have a point. They are not. They are actively trying to antagonize the situation and make it worse(intensifying support for illegal settlements, going to the al aqsa mosque etc). The Israeli government made an attack from Hamas inevitable.

peace deal after peacedeal has been proposed. Once there was even a peace deal offering palestinians most of Israel, but it was rejected by the extremists that run their area because they want an extermination of Jews. This is their own words.

is any of this recent? I'm not aware of any serious attempts from Israel in the last decade or 2 to resolve the situation. But they have, year after year, made peace less likely by expanding their illegal settlements.

"supporting terrorists by pointing out the civilians they targeted live in a country that sometimes created bad policies isn't whataboutism, I am just saying whatabout what Israel did that is a type of terrorism also?"

my argument is that A causes B. You are saying that by talking about A, I am engaging in whataboutism. That is not true. That is basic causality. Now obvious the situation is much more complex than that, but Israel's crimes are helping to cause Hamas' crimes. So talking about Israel's shitty behavior is not whataboutism.

SO what? It's a bit of hyperbole. No matter what you do, it will be an imperfect solution? If a country has the military might to impose a solution that is the least bad solution on another country, so what. it's not a big deal, and we were discussing how we could get a more safer world with the threat of your nuclear capabilities, by putting palestinians and Israeli's in a better position, and this was only talked about in the context of one of a million solutions and of course many of the solutions can be partial and mixed.

your "solution" was to mass expel millions of people from their country. On it's own, that is a horrendous crime. You then went further to say that when people object (which everyone obviously will since the plan is pretty evil) that you should murder millions of people to force your evil plan on them and that you have the right to inflict that evil on them because you are stronger than them. That is horrifyingly evil. Worse than the NAZIs kind of evil. How do you not see that?

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#27

ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.19.2023 02:22PM

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@HistoryBuff

From Hamas' perspective, which I am not saying is the correct one, they are using the only resources available to them to try to get their people freedom from Israeli slavery

Not to be disrespectful but I stopped reading here because that is bullshit. That is not the goal of Hamas and it is very disrespectful to actual slaves to make that comparison.

Not only is it not the only resource.

Leaders of Hamas have stated that they would be okay with the eradication of all of their people if it meant an end to Israel and the success and the spread of Islam.

They do not want peace and are willing to kill as many civilians as they can to get their way, according to themselves.

Topic's author

#28

ponikshiy

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ponikshiy

10.19.2023 02:24PM

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10.19.2023 02:24PM

I read a little bit further. There are no israeli settlements on the Gaza strip that I am aware of, besides that a civilized society wouldn't handle that issue by killing , raping and torturing women and children, particularly ones that have zero to do with it.

#29

Greyparrot