Which moral values should take precedence in Israel's response to Hamas?

Author: Savant

Posts

Total: 70
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 1,999
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
Context:
In the discussions surrounding the recent events in Israel and Gaza, there seems to be little agreement on how Israel is justified in responding to Hamas' recent actions, or to what extent Hamas was provoked in the first place. Even calling Israel's actions a "response to Hamas" could easily be taken as controversial. Beyond some agreement that the death of innocent civilians is undesirable, there seems to be little consensus on what justifies the killing of x number of civilians. Preventing more deaths and acting in self-defense are both generally agreed on as mitigating factors, and intentionally targeting civilians to send a message is generally frowned upon. The scale of death is often thought to be important as well—for example, killing a thousand civilians is worse than killing ten. But these few areas of agreement do not get us much closer to how each of these factors should be weighed against one another. I will detail two possible approaches below.

I will use a number of analogies, some from popular media. Spoilers for Death Note, Loki (2021), and ASoIaF follow. I did not expect to be using the Red Wedding as a metaphor for the philosophical debate surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but few things can be expected in 2023.


Human Rights Approach:
In a previous post, most people seemed to agree that human rights should govern morality. I suppose we should start with the human rights angle since it is the most straightforward. This approach begins with the assumption that all humans have inalienable rights, which can only be violated to protect some amount of other rights. These rights can be forfeited if a human violates the rights of someone else. The most important right, presumably, is the right not to be killed. Measuring civilian casualties, then, is a simple matter of measuring the ratio of innocent people killed to innocent people saved. Different thought experiments have attempted to quantify this, and I will give five scenarios that seem to give different answers.

The classical trolley problem involves redirecting a runaway trolley toward one person to save five people. Most people who are given this scenario choose to redirect the trolley. In a different version, individuals are asked whether they would push a large man in front of the trolley to prevent it from hitting five people. Most people refuse to push the large man. This discrepancy has largely been rationalized with the doctrine of double effect—according to this doctrine, using someone as a means rather than an end is always wrong, but it is justified to directly prevent a great evil, even if it will indirectly lead to the deaths of innocent people. Israel could argue that the citizens of Palestine are not being treated as a means and that civilian casualties are simply an indirect effect of their actions against Hamas. However, the threshold here still requires a 1:1 ratio. If Israel kills more civilians than it saves, on this doctrine, it would be like redirecting the runaway trolley to hit ten people in order to save five—presumably not justifiable. We would have to account for how many more Israelis would die if Israel did not take such extreme measures in the Gaza Strip.

Complicating this is another version of the thought experiment in which the trolley, if redirected, will derail and tumble down a hill, killing someone who is taking a walk. Most people offered this scenario without hearing the others choose not to redirect the trolley, considering the person walking to be less involved in the conflict, in contrast to the trolley workers. This could work against Israel's case since the second-best scenario might involve a ground invasion with soldiers who joined the army voluntarily. Theorists could argue that killing one civilian to save five soldiers who voluntarily joined the army is not justifiable, just like redirecting the trolley in this instance.

Another event we might consider is the use of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Proponents of these attacks argue that while they killed about 200 thousand people, they saved even more (about 1 million). This presumes that directly killing one innocent person to save five is justifiable. Opponents typically argue that the bombs were not necessary, but it is rare to come across someone who argues that, even if the bombs were necessary, the United States should have bitten the bullet and let 1 million people die. It seems a rare point of agreement then, that in the context of war, killing 1 to save 5 is justifiable.

But on a strict human rights approach, that context should be irrelevant. Humans are individuals, and individuals do not become less innocent just because their leaders elect to declare war. So on a purist human rights approach, people's inclinations seem to have contradictory results. A final example is the anime series Death Note, in which Light Yagami saves about 20 times as many people as he kills, and saves about 200 times as many innocent people as he kills [source]. Most of Yagami's is almost universally condemned as evil, even the killings that were necessary to save a greater number (most of them). If that is the case, then this would seem to contradict the earlier consensus we saw with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It would also seem to contradict the actions of his father and the other members of the Kira task force, involving handing over the Death Note to known terrorists. Kira (the antagonist) kills a small number of people to save a larger number, while the task force (the protagonists) risk thousands of lives to save one person. Perhaps a purist human rights approach is insufficient to account for people's feelings on this matter.


Principle Approach:
It was my initial assumption that the human right not to be killed outweighs most other moral values when weighted in a moral calculus. But what if that's not the case? In Loki (2021), Kang the Conqueror commits genocide on a massive scale in order to prevent a multiversal war, which would likely result (on average) in less deaths than his current approach. In terms of pure death count, the TVA status quo seems like the worst-case scenario already, so Kang is not saving lives on net. Is killing trillions of people to save a lesser number ever justified? In my readings on this, the consensus seems to be that Kang was justified in these killings because an alternate Kang would be a dictator, restricting freedom across the multiverse, even if this alternate version of Kang might kill less people. So perhaps the principle of having freedom outweighs a few trillion lives, even if protecting freedom requires killing those people directly.

It may also be assumed that if a particular war or conflict is provoked by another group, all blame for civilian casualties lies on them. At the Red Wedding, Catelyn Stark's killing of JB is often considered justified under the reasoning that even if killing an innocent person is morally worse than breaking a vow, Walder Frey has started the conflict and thus blame for the deaths of all innocents lies with him. Both Palestine and Israel would likely make this argument, with Israel in particular focusing on Hamas' decision to put bases inside of soft targets like hospitals.

Palestine often defends their actions with the principle of recovering land stolen from them. Israel often relies on the principle of non-responsibility, since Hamas often uses civilians as human shields, forcing Israel to choose between Palestinian casualties and the deaths of Israelis. Religion often factors into this war as well, although it plays a myriad of different roles and doesn't necessarily seem to be the main focus of the conflict. But it may affect how the principle approach is applied in many cases. Hamas would have to rely primarily on this approach since the killing of Israeli civilians is generally done for the sole purpose of sending a message, rather than to save others.

The hard thing about the principle approach is deciding how to weigh principles against each other. How many lives is freedom worth, and how can freedom even be measured? If we're not sure about how to weigh two moral factors, should we refrain from killing civilians just to be safe, or go with our emotions? And finally, when someone's homeland has been invaded and many of their fellow citizens killed, will their emotions be a reflection of accurate moral principles or cloud their judgment?
ponikshiy
ponikshiy's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 604
3
3
6
ponikshiy's avatar
ponikshiy
3
3
6
-->
@Savant
Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve (all non-Muslims) …"

Surah 2:191: "And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them … kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims).

It has Jewish specific texts referancing genocide as well. 

They are Launching a holy war they are happy to die for and this is. Ot about land. 
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
There's what I'd call the self-defense criterion. If a hundred men were trying to kill you, and the only way to survive was to kill them all, it wouldn't be immoral to do so even though their combined lives outweighed the value of yours.
One might say: "Well they forfeited their lives because they were trying to kill you." There's no basis for this. The vast majority of murderers are given a less severe punishment than the death penalty, even while the same legal system acquits those who shot an attacker dead in self-defense; if explained by the previous logic, this wouldn't make sense because uncompleted murders are routinely given a harsher penalty than a completed one, and with a reasonably enlightened state's sanction. Self-defense, then, does seem to create a right to kill that isn't limited by such concerns. This applies even when it doesn't make utilitarian sense.

Modern warfare has been called "total war", and for good reason. Soldiers are paid by the taxes of civilians, and either wouldn't fight without pay or would be of limited effectiveness because they could only work as part-time fighters. Same goes for the governments that armies work for. Otherwise, civilians participate in modern war by manufacturing war materials or by performing services attached to broader war efforts, or if nothing else, by uttering speech that contributes to a general environment of willingness to fight a war. Children will likely participate in the aforementioned manners as adults, or could become soldiers or government employees as adults. Given this, one could argue that civilians are justified targets for killing in self-defense if the end result is the saving of lives on the defending side.

Under this framework, the first question becomes "What is the least bad viable path to achieving self-defense?". It stands to reason that Israel could more or less subdue Hamas without slaughtering every living soul in the Gaza Strip. As such, they are obliged to take it, for the same reason you'd be obliged to flee from instead of kill those hundred men if possible. The second question is, "To the extent that pursuing the least bad path complicates one's achievement of self-defense, at what point does this obligation end?".
To which I have no answer. It seems you can't totally throw out utilitarianism. But it isn't calling most of the shots, nor can you rightly expect the Israelis to behave like it does.
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
The thing about the trolley problem is that the person who flips the switch is never the one tied to the tracks. In that situation, a very different calculus is running through your brain. One that has nothing to do with "one guy versus ten".
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
And personally I wouldn't play god no matter how many net lives would be saved. The idea that you can wipe your hands clean of non-defensively killing a guy because it was an "indirect death", which you had full knowledge of in advance, is insane.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Savant
Morals are made up, variable and adaptable.

We will apply morals as we see fit, in response to circumstance.

Sitting in the relative comfort and security of out places of detachment, we can scratch our chins all day long and discuss trolleys.

Such are our circumstances.


And then the aeroplanes struck the Twin Towers.

And the inalienable human rights of the Afghani citizen and their trolley, were modified accordingly.




Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
I stand with Palestine. Israel is the thief of the land.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Swagnarok
Palestine has a right to defend itself, yes.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@ponikshiy
Only a coward doesnt fight against the oppressor.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Then let them fight


And be crushed
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
Crushed? 

My friend, you have been trying to crush Palestine for 80 years.

There is no reason to believe you will succeed this time, even with USA helping you.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Must be why Palestine is such  a great country.....oh......wait.....they don't have a country.  Lol
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
And yet they strike Israel.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Strike away.   It's making their lives so much better.  Lol

Israel just expands its lands 
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
And yet Palestine still stands.

Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Blockaded.   No food, water, electricity. 


Man this is really helping them.  Lol
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
Nobody in Palestine cares about your logic.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Nobody in Israel cares about your logic 
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
Who cares about Israel?
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Who cares about Palestinians?
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
I do, and 1 billion of muslims do as well.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Must be why they are so successful at building a country.  Lol
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
Must be why Israel cant do anything about Palestine.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Except have a thriving democracy.  Lol
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
You mean living on Life support from USA.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Yeah doing great.  Meanwhile in gaza....

  • The UN’s World Food Programme (WFP) said the situation in the Gaza Strip is “dire” and “devastating” and warned that crucial supplies were running dangerously low after Israel imposed a total blockade on the territory. Israel’s energy minister, Israel Katz, said no power, water or fuel will be allowed into Gaza until Israeli hostages are returned home.

Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
1 trillion dollars sent to Israel... Israel still cant win.
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
  • The US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, said the attacks by Hamas had “harrowing echoes” of Nazi massacres, as he stood alongside the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in Jerusalem in an act of public solidarity. Blinken vowed that the US would stand for ever alongside Israel, and said he would use his tour of the region to urge all parties, especially Hezbollah, not to broaden the conflict or open a second front. The death toll of US citizens in Israel now stands at 27, the White House said on Thursday. The number of Americans unaccounted for is 14.

Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,649
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Vegasgiants
Tell us more about how Israel is about to win. (It isnt)

Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Israeli military said it struck 750 military targets in northern Gaza overnight