Free Will

Author: YouFound_Lxam

Posts

Total: 53
Topic's author
#1
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
If there exists no God, then how is it that humans possess free will? 

If there is no God and we are just the remains of a giant explosion, then we would be considered to be stardust. 
So then, if we are really just stardust, then why do morals matter to us humans, why do we have purpose, and why do we have emotions.
If we are just stardust, why does it matter if one stardust, kills another stardust. 
Why is it bad for one stardust to insult another stardust. 

As stardust, why do we feel bad about that guy we saw living on the street last week.
In other words, why do we care?




#2
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,426
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Define free will?
Topic's author
#3
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Tradesecret
Define free will?
 the ability to act at one's own discretion.
#4
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,520
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
It appears that you think you are making an assertion by asking questions. If there is a God, why don't you know the answers to these questions.

If there exists no God, then how is it that humans possess free will? 
If God exists, then how is it that humans possess free will?  Why does the fact that humans posses free will depend on whether or not God exists.  Hoe exactly does the existence of God answer the question?

If there is no God and we are just the remains of a giant explosion, then we would be considered to be stardust. 
If there is a God, then what does that mean we are? Why does the existence of God mean we aren't considered to be stardust?  If God created and directs everything by speaking it into existence, then why did he create us with a seeking intellect and make a universe with the false appearance that the universe began in a "Big Bang", did God create science to trick us?  Why did God want tom trick us?

So then, if we are really just stardust, then why do morals matter to us humans, why do we have purpose, and why do we have emotions.
If God just thought the unioverse into existende, then why do morals matter to us humans, why do we have purpose, and why do we have emotions?  If made everything the way it is, then that doesn't answer any of your why questions, it only directs them toward God. Why doesn't God answer these questions for you?

If we are just stardust, why does it matter if one stardust, kills another stardust. 
If God made everything the way it is, then it doesn't matter if one kills another, it's because God made it that way.

Why is it bad for one stardust to insult another stardust. 
Ask God.

As stardust, why do we feel bad about that guy we saw living on the street last week.
In other words, why do we care?
If God exists, then why do you feel bad about that guy, shouldn't you feel that it's God's will?

If your point is that all questionshave the same answer, "God did it", then the only question left is "why ask questions".

It seems you are postulating a God who would create Man with a rational mind, a sense of wonder, and seeking intellect, while creating a universe with the false appearance of tremendous age with the overwhelming evidence of "evolution" occuring in creation as a trick or something. This concept of a deceptive God is very hard to accept, it strikes me as a much greater challenge to Christianity than any damage the concept of evolution could ever hope to do.

A perfect being ought not to be capable of imperfect creations, but then He ought not to be capable of lying either, and I think the notion of a trickster God does more harm than good to Christianity.


#5
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 347
Posts: 10,128
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Free will? 

Will cant be free. 

You are not the avatar.
#6
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,579
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Free will.

It can hardly be free will if it comes with a threat ..... of death. Gen:  2:17
#7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen
@Sidewalker
@YouFound_Lxam



.
Stephen,

As we can see AGAIN, YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker are as dumbfounded of the Bible as Miss Tradesecret is!  When will their outright bible stupidity ever end which is an embarrassment within this prestigious Religion Forum?  

We Christians DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL as Jesus' inspired words so state!  Remember when I easily buried the #1 Bible fool Miss Tradesecret upon this topic in the past, where she had to leave this forum to take a needed break from her Bible ignorance?  Now, the equally Bible Stupids®️ YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker want to take Miss Tradesecret's place in also being Bible stupid and ignorant!


JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS STATE SPECIFICALLY: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Ephesians 1:11) Key word: “PREDESTINED” where Jesus’ Jewish creation as Christians have no free will because Jesus determines in advance to His purpose in what He wants our lives to be!  Duh!

To further the outright Bible stupidity of the aforementioned pseudo-christians, here are a few more inspired by Jesus passages that support the biblical axiom that Christians DO NOT have Free Will, period!

1. “The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD” (Proverbs 16:33).  

2. "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand (Proverbs 19:21).

3.  "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).

4.  JESUS SAID: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope (Jeremiah 29:11).

5.  “Oh Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with ALL my ways.” (Psalm 139:1-3)


Stephen, I don't know about you, but Jesus and I are getting so tired of Bible inept pseudo-christians like are mentioned within this godly post of mine, where they still want to call themselves Christians, NOT!!!!!!!

.
#8
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,579
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
 YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker want to take Miss Tradesecret's place in also being Bible stupid and ignorant!


Well I am sure that they will both be pleased to hear that they have a long way to go yet. Neither  YouFound_Lxam nor Sidewalker  are  worthy  enough to untie the sandals of our resident Pastor and Chaplain, Tradesecret when it comes to bible ignorance and duncery.
#9
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,453
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
If there exists no God, then how is it that humans possess free will? 
There is no free will. I mean it's not full free will, I would say it's half free will because we are sort of programmed by our genes and cultural background.

In other words, why do we care?
We are social animals, that's why we care of people of our same species. 

I think you need more general knowledge, bro.

#10
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,520
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
We have the worst trolls I've ever seen, embarrassingly bad.

You and Stephen should be ashamed.


#11
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,426
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Define free will?
 the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Would you say that a slave has the discretion to leave slavery? 

Would you suggest that a dog has free will? It certainly is able to act at its own discretion. Or is it instinct?

And if instinct is different from free will, what part of the human ability to act is instinct and what part is not? For example,  the flight or flee principle? The desire to survive principle? The desire to fit in principle? The desire to breed principle? The desire to feel part of something bigger principle? 




Topic's author
#12
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Sidewalker
It appears that you think you are making an assertion by asking questions. If there is a God, why don't you know the answers to these questions.
I am asking more of a rhetorical question when I am asking these questions. I am more or less making a point rather than looking for an answer. 

If God exists, then how is it that humans possess free will?  Why does the fact that humans posses free will depend on whether or not God exists.  Hoe exactly does the existence of God answer the question?
I don't think you understand. Free will can't exist without a God. 
If there were no God, and there is no purpose to the universe, then we wouldn't be able to make our own choices and decisions because after all in the end we are just clumps of space stuff. What we do is meaningless.

If you belive that what you do by your own will impacts the world around you, then how can you not understand the simple fact that a God or a God like figure had to given at least some purpose to our lives.  Something would have to give us purpose and you can't choose to give unless you exist so in other words, the universe can't give anything, only a being can. 

If there is a God, then what does that mean we are? Why does the existence of God mean we aren't considered to be stardust?  If God created and directs everything by speaking it into existence, then why did he create us with a seeking intellect and make a universe with the false appearance that the universe began in a "Big Bang", did God create science to trick us?  Why did God want tom trick us?
We are not just stardust, because I belive that we as human beings have the ability to freely by our own will, affect the world around us, and that we ourselves choose to do that no matter what forces affects us. 

Also science isn't a trick from God to humans. It is a way for humans to percive God's creation in a fathomable way.

If God just thought the unioverse into existende, then why do morals matter to us humans, why do we have purpose, and why do we have emotions?  If made everything the way it is, then that doesn't answer any of your why questions, it only directs them toward God. Why doesn't God answer these questions for you?
Again it's rhetorical. 

If God made everything the way it is, then it doesn't matter if one kills another, it's because God made it that way.
Well if you look at the Bible, that's not how God originally created us to be like. It was by our own free will that God gave us that led to us sinning and doing morally bad things, but again I ask you, what separates moral things from immoral things.

If God exists, then why do you feel bad about that guy, shouldn't you feel that it's God's will?
God's will is different from what we do with our own free will. 

If your point is that all questionshave the same answer, "God did it", then the only question left is "why ask questions".
Rhetorical questioning is what I like to call it. 

It seems you are postulating a God who would create Man with a rational mind, a sense of wonder, and seeking intellect, while creating a universe with the false appearance of tremendous age with the overwhelming evidence of "evolution" occuring in creation as a trick or something. This concept of a deceptive God is very hard to accept, it strikes me as a much greater challenge to Christianity than any damage the concept of evolution could ever hope to do.
Evolution and the age of the universe doesn't contradict the Bible so I don't know what your talking about. 



Topic's author
#13
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
It can hardly be free will if it comes with a threat ..... of death. Gen:  2:17
It's not a threat, it's a choice. 
Topic's author
#14
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Stephen
Forgot to tag. 
Topic's author
#15
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@IlDiavolo
There is no free will. I mean it's not full free will, I would say it's half free will because we are sort of programmed by our genes and cultural background.
There is no such thing as halfway free will. 
If you belive that you freely by your own will can affect the universe around you by any measure than you belive that we have free will. 

We are social animals, that's why we care of people of our same species. 
I think you need more general knowledge, bro.
We also care for animals like cats and dogs, but besides the point. 

I'm asking a deeper question than that (rhetorically of course)  that your answer didn't answer. You said "We are social animals, that's why we care of people of our same species." But that doesn't answer my question about why we care. Why?


Topic's author
#16
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Tradesecret
Would you say that a slave has the discretion to leave slavery
Yes. A slave meaning a person enslaved by another does have the individual choice to leave. Now it would be considerably hard depending on the circumstances, they they do have that free will. 

Would you suggest that a dog has free will? It certainly is able to act at its own discretion. Or is it instinct?
Dogs are different than humans. They think differently than we do, they dont have free will because even though what they do affects the universe around them, they cannot comprehend that fact. They are self centered, but not in a sinful way. Just an animal type of self centered. 

And if instinct is different from free will, what part of the human ability to act is instinct and what part is not? For example,  the flight or flee principle? The desire to survive principle? The desire to fit in principle? The desire to breed principle? The desire to feel part of something bigger principle? 
Instinct is actions you take, based on your situation. Not situations your purposefully create based on your purposeful actions. 
#17
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,579
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
It can hardly be free will if it comes with a threat ..... of death. Gen:  2:17
It's not a threat, it's a choice. 

If I command that you not  do something or you will die, it has nothing to do with free will. Gen:  2:17

I understand that you want to exonerate your god from all guilt of murder but the fact remains that  only god has the power over life and death, if the bible is to be believed.

And god doesn't seem to have taken into account or mitigation and has totally ignored the fact that Eve was indeed deceived by one of his own sons, if the bible is to be believed.

It was no one else but god that was the cause of mankind's fall. He is the creator of all things including evil. Isaiah 45:7, if the bible is to be believed.
#18
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Sidewalker


.
Sidewalker,

YOUR RUNAWAY QUOTE BECAUSE JESUS AND I MADE YOU THE FOOL AGAIN IN MY POST #7:  "We have the worst trolls I've ever seen, embarrassingly bad.
You and Stephen should be ashamed".   

The only ones that should be ashamed is YOU and the equally Bible Stupid YouFound_Lxam because you cannot refute my post #7 and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath! ROFLOL!!!

Sidewalker, why are you still here in this forum where you are nothing but flotsam, in where your posts are always EXCUSES to not address the members posts to you?  You are just too SCARED to be here in the first place as shown ad infinitum, therefore I'll give you one more chance to find your "Big Boy" pants and address your complete  Bible stupidity relative to my post #7 herewith:  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9915/posts/410747  Ready? BEGIN!

Are you going to RUN AWAY and hide like Miss Tradesecret has to do all the time when she too can't address biblical axioms? Huh?  Do I see in my minds eye that you are putting on your RUNNING SHOES to run and hide from my post 7? LOL!!!

Sidewalker, your Bible stupidity is this forum is without question!

NEXT DUMBFOUNDED RUNAWAY MEMBER THAT HAS TO RUN AWAY FROM POSTS TO THEM LIKE "SIDEWALKER" BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ADDRESS THEM, WILL BE ...?

.

#19
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,520
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Astoundingly lame trolls, Baxter is only 8 years old and he could do better than that.....and he's my dog.




Topic's author
#20
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Stephen
If I command that you not  do something or you will die, it has nothing to do with free will. Gen:  2:17
The not what is taking place though. 
If you put yourself in a risky situation by your own free will, then someone comes along and gives you a way out, that is not threatening, that is loving. 

I understand that you want to exonerate your god from all guilt of murder but the fact remains that  only god has the power over life and death, if the bible is to be believed.
He  has the power over life and death. But what happens when God gives us free will. Now, we can choose which path to take. He has the power over it, but he let's us choose. He gives life not death. We choose death and he gives life. 

Just because he has the power over life and death doesn't mean he will use it unjustly. 

And god doesn't seem to have taken into account or mitigation and has totally ignored the fact that Eve was indeed deceived by one of his own sons, if the bible is to be believed.
Satan want a son, he was an angel. A fallen angel that purposefully chose to part from God. It's called temptation and if you read the story about the serpent and the tree then you would have known that. 

Are you just going to blame all of your bad decisions on other people just because they decived you? 

So you didn't do it, the devil made you do it.

It was no one else but god that was the cause of mankind's fall. He is the creator of all things including evil. Isaiah 45:7, if the bible is to be believed.
He is. But does that mean he is evil? You can't have good without evil and free will at the same time. That is a fallacy. So god had to create a decision for humans in order to give us free will. Him vs evil. 


#21
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,520
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Astoundingly lame trolls, Baxter is only 8 years old and he could do better than that.....and he's my dog.
I'm pretty sure Baxter understands the Bible better than you and Stephen too.
#22
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,579
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@YouFound_Lxam

If I command that you not  do something or you will die, it has nothing to do with free will. Gen:  2:17
The not what is taking place though. 
If you put yourself in a risky situation by your own free will, then someone comes along and gives you a way out, that is not threatening, that is loving. 
That is what exactly took place.. The two brand new-sparkling humans didn't put themselves in the garden where god knew there was a talking serpent lurking.



I understand that you want to exonerate your god from all guilt of murder but the fact remains that  only god has the power over life and death, if the bible is to be believed.
He  has the power over life and death. But what happens when God gives us free will. Now, we can choose which path to take. He has the power over it, but he let's us choose. He gives life not death. We choose death and he gives life. 

How many times!!?  It is not free will if it comes with the threat of the penalty of death. 

Just because he has the power over life and death doesn't mean he will use it unjustly. 

He  served out death sentences to two people that was on the other end of HIS OWN SON'S deceit. 

And god doesn't seem to have taken into account or mitigation and has totally ignored the fact that Eve was indeed deceived by one of his own sons, if the bible is to be believed.
Satan want a son, he was an angel.

And the angels were sons of god. learn your bible.


Are you just going to blame all of your bad decisions on other people just because they decived you? 

If I commit a crime unwittingly on the deceitful advice of others, then yes I will blame the deceiver.


So you didn't do it, the devil made you do it.

The devil didn't make them do it, did he. He deceived them into doing it.  The serpent was a very wise creature and much wiser that these two brand new humans that had only been around for a few (biblical) days. If the bible is to be believed.


It was no one else but god that was the cause of mankind's fall. He is the creator of all things including evil. Isaiah 45:7, if the bible is to be believed.
He is. But does that mean he is evil?

Not necessarily, but it make him responsible .


So god had to create a decision for humans in order to give us free will. Him vs evil. 

And you have good BIBLICAL evidence for this decision, do you? 

Answer me this, who was created first- the Angels or humans?



#23
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Sidewalker


Sidewalker,

Well, we see you couldn't find your "big boy pants" so I'll make it easier for you and repost my post that YOU ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM, okay?

Now, don't be SCARED again, okay, my post below only shows in how biblically STUPID you truly are, so just accept this fact, OR, try and refute my post shown below, or do you have another EXCUSE to have to run to your mommy and hide under her apron? LOL!!

THE MEMBERSHIP IS WATCHING, READY, HERE IT IS AGAIN, BEGIN:

As we can see AGAIN, YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker are as dumbfounded of the Bible as Miss Tradesecret is!  When will their outright bible stupidity ever end which is an embarrassment within this prestigious Religion Forum?  

We Christians DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL as Jesus' inspired words so state!  Remember when I easily buried the #1 Bible fool Miss Tradesecret upon this topic in the past, where she had to leave this forum to take a needed break from her Bible ignorance?  Now, the equally Bible Stupids®️ YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker want to take Miss Tradesecret's place in also being Bible stupid and ignorant!


JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS STATE SPECIFICALLY: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Ephesians 1:11) Key word: “PREDESTINED” where Jesus’ Jewish creation as Christians have no free will because Jesus determines in advance to His purpose in what He wants our lives to be!  Duh!

To further the outright Bible stupidity of the aforementioned pseudo-christians, here are a few more inspired by Jesus passages that support the biblical axiom that Christians DO NOT have Free Will, period!

1. “The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD” (Proverbs 16:33).  

2. "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand (Proverbs 19:21).

3.  "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).

4.  JESUS SAID: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope (Jeremiah 29:11).

5.  “Oh Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with ALL my ways.” (Psalm 139:1-3)


Stephen, I don't know about you, but Jesus and I are getting so tired of Bible inept pseudo-christians like are mentioned within this godly post of mine, where they still want to call themselves Christians, NOT!!!!!!!

.

#24
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,520
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
One post, done a thousand times, you must think it's clever LOL.

Pathetic trolling.

Now do that tired old boring post that nobody but Stephen reads again.
#25
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,426
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Would you say that a slave has the discretion to leave slavery
Yes. A slave meaning a person enslaved by another does have the individual choice to leave. Now it would be considerably hard depending on the circumstances, they they do have that free will. 

Not trying to be difficult, but surely a slave is owned by another person and does not have the freedom to just up and leave.  Let's take it to another level.  Would you hold to the view that humans are born into the estate of sin or that they are born free?


Would you suggest that a dog has free will? It certainly is able to act at its own discretion. Or is it instinct?
Dogs are different than humans. They think differently than we do, they dont have free will because even though what they do affects the universe around them, they cannot comprehend that fact. They are self centered, but not in a sinful way. Just an animal type of self centered. 
So free will is more than just having the capacity to act according to its own discretion? I'm not sure how thinking differently to humans, means they don't have free will.  Why is comprehension of the ability to impact the world necessary for it to be free will? And again, would you please explain why self-centredness, sinful or not sinful is relevant to the idea of free will?


And if instinct is different from free will, what part of the human ability to act is instinct and what part is not? For example,  the flight or flee principle? The desire to survive principle? The desire to fit in principle? The desire to breed principle? The desire to feel part of something bigger principle? 
Instinct is actions you take, based on your situation. Not situations your purposefully create based on your purposeful actions. 
So would you say that any instinct that a human takes is not an act of free will? the instinct to have sex for instance - which leads to raping some person. Is that instinct - as opposed to free will? 
#26
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,579
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
We Christians DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL as Jesus' inspired words so state!  Remember when I easily buried the #1 Bible fool Miss Tradesecret upon this topic in the past, where she had to leave this forum to take a needed break from her Bible ignorance?  Now, the equally Bible Stupids®️ YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker want to take Miss Tradesecret's place in also being Bible stupid and ignorant!


JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS STATE SPECIFICALLY: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Ephesians 1:11) Key word: “PREDESTINED” where Jesus’ Jewish creation as Christians have no free will because Jesus determines in advance to His purpose in what He wants our lives to be!  

Indeed, "predestined"  is certainly the key word there Brother D.  If someone else had pointed out the bleedin' obvious I don't doubt for a second that the Reverend Tradesecret would have asked for the definition of the word "predestined", which is always the Reverends default.

So to save some other poor sod from having  to suffer the insufferable Reverend Tradesecret trying to come across as educated and intelligent , here are the definition/s of the word Predestined:

Foreordained; Decreed.


Foreordained. To ordain or appoint before; to preordain; to predestinate; to predetermine.

Decree.  Determined judicially; resolved; appointed; established in purpose.

As in;
Job 22:28 - Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: 
Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Job 28:26 - When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:

 


Topic's author
#27
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Tradesecret
Not trying to be difficult, but surely a slave is owned by another person and does not have the freedom to just up and leave.  Let's take it to another level.  Would you hold to the view that humans are born into the estate of sin or that they are born free?
Well technically speaking people in North Korea are not free legally, but they have the free will to choose to leave. 

And for your second comment, according to the Bible, all people are born into sin. Now that doesn't mean that at the moment of birth a person is sinfull, but they are born into sin. 

I don't understand why you ask," or free". We are both born into sin and free to choose it or not. 

So free will is more than just having the capacity to act according to its own discretion? I'm not sure how thinking differently to humans, means they don't have free will.  Why is comprehension of the ability to impact the world necessary for it to be free will? And again, would you please explain why self-centredness, sinful or not sinful is relevant to the idea of free will?
I'll answer this sentence by sentence:

Yes it is. 

Humans can purposefully see the action they want to do, see the consequences, some clearer than others, and purposefully choose to do it. Animals instinct is all based on survival. 

It's not self-centeredness, its purposefully realization and choice of moral and immoral things. 

So would you say that any instinct that a human takes is not an act of free will? the instinct to have sex for instance - which leads to raping some person. Is that instinct - as opposed to free will? 
Rape is not an instinct. 
The desire for sex is the instinct. Again the desire is the instinct not the action. It's called temptation. 
#28
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,426
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Once Again, thanks for the responses. 

Not trying to be difficult, but surely a slave is owned by another person and does not have the freedom to just up and leave.  Let's take it to another level.  Would you hold to the view that humans are born into the estate of sin or that they are born free?
Well technically speaking people in North Korea are not free legally, but they have the free will to choose to leave. 
I'm not sure how that helps in our discussion of free will. If someone is owned by someone else, it would seem implicit that they don't have the right and therefore the capacity to leave of their own free will. No offence meant in that, but ownership must mean something. Including the right to transfer. Hence, North Korean people might have the ability to leave, and perhaps that is a sort of capacity, but is it legitimate? AND if its not legitimate, is it therefore free will?


And for your second comment, according to the Bible, all people are born into sin. Now that doesn't mean that at the moment of birth a person is sinfull, but they are born into sin. 

I don't understand why you ask," or free". We are both born into sin and free to choose it or not. 
Hmmm. that's a surprising response.  Would you care to explain what you think the difference is between a person who is born in sin, and someone who was not born into sin?  Your last question is intriguing. If someone is born into sin, it must mean something. What do think it means?


So free will is more than just having the capacity to act according to its own discretion? I'm not sure how thinking differently to humans, means they don't have free will.  Why is comprehension of the ability to impact the world necessary for it to be free will? And again, would you please explain why self-centredness, sinful or not sinful is relevant to the idea of free will?
I'll answer this sentence by sentence:

Yes it is. 
Okay. Please explain what you mean. 

Humans can purposefully see the action they want to do, see the consequences, some clearer than others, and purposefully choose to do it. Animals instinct is all based on survival. 
Evidence for this assertion please. 

It's not self-centeredness, it's purposefully realization and choice of moral and immoral things. 
Of course it is. You haven't yet distinguished enough between the two to make any sense. 

So would you say that any instinct that a human takes is not an act of free will? the instinct to have sex for instance - which leads to raping some person. Is that instinct - as opposed to free will? 
Rape is not an instinct. 
The desire for sex is the instinct. Again the desire is the instinct not the action. It's called temptation. 

Says you? I think it is quite feasible to say rape is an instinct. It occurs within the animal realm all of the time.  It is clearly due to the instinct to have sex and reproduce. What makes the animal instinct to rape - distinct from the human sense to rape for whatever reason?
Topic's author
#29
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Tradesecret
I'm not sure how that helps in our discussion of free will. If someone is owned by someone else, it would seem implicit that they don't have the right and therefore the capacity to leave of their own free will.
Legally, in specific places in the world and in specific time periods in history, you can be owned by another human being, but only legally. 

I am talking about something that surpasses legality. Think about it like this:
A country can control its people, but people can still revolt and take over. 

Someone can own a slave, but that doesn't nessesarraly mean that the slave can fight back or run away. 

No offence meant in that, but ownership must mean something. Including the right to transfer. Hence, North Korean people might have the ability to leave, and perhaps that is a sort of capacity, but is it legitimate? AND if its not legitimate, is it therefore free will?
No offense taken. 
Ownership is a legal right to own something. Again the word legal is very important here. 

We don't even have to use the word legal though. I belive you could say that ownership is one's ability to keep an object or person in one's possession.

And the law helps people with that ability to own that thing whatever it is. 

Also, if you can make any type of decisions by your own will to any extent, that is an example of free will. 

Hmmm. that's a surprising response.  Would you care to explain what you think the difference is between a person who is born in sin, and someone who was not born into sin?  Your last question is intriguing. If someone is born into sin, it must mean something. What do think it means?
There is no one person not born into sin. 
It's like going in a pool. You are placed into the water. Think of it like that. 

So every person that has ever lived has been born into sun, but only one didn't succumb to the sin. That man was Jesus Christ. 

Being born into sin means that you were born into a sinful world. A world full of sin. 

Evidence for this assertion please. 
Animals know what to do from birth. It's instinct. Animals live their lives off of instinct. Some animals don't even get parental guidance. 

Humans are very different though. 
Humans cannot just survive without heavy guidance. And it's not just survival skills that humans have to be guided through. It's morals as well. 

Says you? I think it is quite feasible to say rape is an instinct. It occurs within the animal realm all of the time.  It is clearly due to the instinct to have sex and reproduce. What makes the animal instinct to rape - distinct from the human sense to rape for whatever reason?
Animals have that instinct.
Humans don't. 

Because human emotion and human trauma is more heavy and complex than animals. 

Rape isn't a human instinct.

Again this is why free will is only a human trait.
Animals will get the instinct to rape and do it.
Humans will get that instinct and make the choice. 

Now animals make that choice to, but it isn't based upon morals its based upon situation. 
#30
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 390
1
2
7
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
1
2
7
-->
@Stephen


.

Stephen,

Look at poor Miss Tradesecret making a continued pseudo-christian fool of herself in her posts #25, and #28, where she continues to try and define godly "Free Will," where when doing so, she is once again slapping Jesus as god in the face AGAIN!  It's like, what part of my godly post #23 and your posts relative to Bible free will didn't she understand, along with the equally bible inept YouFound_Lxam?  LOL!   Yes, I understand, where we have forgotten more about the Bible than Miss Tradesecret will ever learn from it in her lifetime!!!

The irony of which is you and me in our posts in this thread have given another lesson to Miss Tradesecret regarding godly free will that she can't admit too at this time for the sake of further embarrassment on her part within this thread.  Rest assured, she copied our posts regarding Bible free will to use with her poor misguided congregation at a later date if need be!

Its amazing that the moderators still allow Miss Tradesecret's Bible Stupidisms®️ all the time, and that the Bible buffoon Sidewalker, that couldn't debate himself out of a broom closet, still remains upon this Religion Forum on the sidelines where he belongs as he continues to RUN AWAY from the threads topic!!!  LOL!

.