Let’s recognize all the great Libertarian politicians who have served this country.

Author: IwantRooseveltagain

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Athias
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@Greyparrot
There are a lot of communists masquerading as Democrats,
Very true. Operation "Paperclip" and "Ratrun" as well as Joseph McCarthy's exposé of sorts would inform this.

and a lot of libertarians masquerading as Republicans.
Libertarian hypocrites, maybe.
Athias
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@Savant
If your metric for success is getting elected, then you could say the same thing for basically any third party. It's essentially impossible to get elected right now as anything other than a Republican or Democrat.
What doesn't register with the OP is, what reason would a Libertarian have to participate in an electoral process, more to the point, a process of governance, which is defined by involuntary association? It's like putting into question the reason a theist hasn't been a successful atheist.
IwantRooseveltagain
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@prefix
Holding a seat in the State legislator would then fit your definition.
Um, no. It would not. Jimmy Carter was President of the United States. Would you say he was a great politician and leader?

They have to be great when compared to others in those positions. Compared to other legislators, judges, etc…

Are you suggesting every single President was great? Washington and Lincoln are the same as James Buchanan and Rutherford B Hayes?

Don’t be ridiculous 

IwantRooseveltagain
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@Savant
Ya, you don’t get to claim Jefferson  or Reagan as Libertarians because they didn’t join the party or call themselves Libertarians.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ideologies and parties are not synonymous, and libertarianism is a spectrum, just like socialism. Parties will often have members with a wide range of ideologies that vote together strategically. For example, Bernie Sanders is not a conventional Democrat, but he runs as one because third-party candidates have trouble getting elected. If you want to evaluate the effects of libertarian policy, the only way to do that is via members of the two main parties, since they're the only ones with a chance of getting elected. If you mean, "Have we had any prominent members of the Libertarian party in high US offices?" then the answer is no, as we would expect for any third party. But assuming the Libertarian party is the only group with libertarians is a bit like assuming the United States is the only country with states. The US is not a parliamentary democracy where every voting bloc has its own party.
prefix
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@IwantRooseveltagain
 great is defined -  of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average.
The mere fact that someone is elected to office shows "ability considerably above the normal or average."

You defined it, so you must agree. QED
Greyparrot
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@prefix
The mere fact that someone is elected to office shows "ability considerably above the normal or average."

You defined it, so you must agree. QED

Stone cold.

ADreamOfLiberty
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@Athias
It's like being robbed and then accepting installments of repayment using money the robber stole from someone else.
No, it's like being robbed and then accepting installments of repayment using money that was equally stolen from you as anyone else and which would not be returned any other way.

This isn't hard to figure out. Sum up the taxes you've paid to the government, add the value lost to inflation, that's how much they stole. That's how much in government payouts you can accept without being a hypocrite in any way.

That's what I've done for myself, and my family. Let me tell you, there is still plenty I'm ready to recover.

TWS1405_2
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TDS click bait is all this thread is. 
IwantRooseveltagain
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@prefix
Ok, so anyone ever elected to anything is great. Even people who didn’t get elected are great. You stick with that position.


IwantRooseveltagain
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@Savant
libertarianism is a spectrum
I would agree Libertarians are on the spectrum.

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@Savant
So the Libertarian Party is so far out on the fringe that even Libertarians won’t admit to being a member. And when they do join the Party they almost always leave the Party soon after.
Greyparrot
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@Athias
Libertarian hypocrites, maybe

of course
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ok, so anyone ever elected to anything is great. Even people who didn’t get elected are great. You stick with that position.

I was using YOUR definition of "great", so deal with it!
IwantRooseveltagain
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@prefix
I was using YOUR definition of "great", so deal with it!
No, you’re not. A great politician is, for starters, someone who actually gets elected. He would also have political abilities above normal or average.

“Most people know how great is defined -  of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average”
Athias
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No, it's like being robbed and then accepting installments of repayment using money that was equally stolen from you as anyone else and which would not be returned any other way.
This may provide a financial indemnification, but not a moral one. One is still participating in a redistribution of stolen funds by accepting.

This isn't hard to figure out.
It isn't.

That's how much in government payouts you can accept without being a hypocrite in any way.
No, one is still very much a hypocrite because tacit legitimization is being provided in one's acceptance. Social security payments aren't doled out on one's own terms; it's on the government's terms. And it neither prevents nor stops the government from its continued thievery.

That's what I've done for myself, and my family. Let me tell you, there is still plenty I'm ready to recover.
Then any moral position you've taken against taxation and wealth distribution is undermined by that which you've done for yourself and your family.
Vegasgiants
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Dream is here  here willingly.  The door leaving the country is wide open
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Athias
This may provide a financial indemnification, but not a moral one. One is still participating in a redistribution of stolen funds by accepting.
No more than one participates in the practice of slavery by failing to go on a hunger strike as a slave.


That's what I've done for myself, and my family. Let me tell you, there is still plenty I'm ready to recover.
Then any moral position you've taken against taxation and wealth distribution is undermined by that which you've done for yourself and your family.
I see no reason to believe that, please provide an argument.

IwantRooseveltagain
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This isn't hard to figure out. Sum up the taxes you've paid to the government, add the value lost to inflation, that's how much they stole. That's how much in government payouts you can accept without being a hypocrite in any way.
Well genius, you get way more from Social Security and Medicare than you pay in to those programs.

An annuity that gives you the same benefits as Social Security would cost over a million dollars.

Athias
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@ADreamOfLiberty
No more than one participates in the practice of slavery by failing to go on a hunger strike as a slave.
Not even remotely apropos. You are not coerced into accepting social security.

I see no reason to believe that, please provide an argument.
I already have:

Athias Post #30:
While I do understand her point, she was still a participant in that which she had condemned as an immoral welfare system. Her collection of social security checks is not akin to filing a grievance or conscientiously objecting. Yes, the government stole her income, but since the government generates no (morally) legitimate income, she was essentially remunerated with stolen funds. It's like being robbed and then accepting installments of repayment using money the robber stole from someone else. While receiving some of the stolen amount may have been a conciliatory resolution to her dispute, she was definitely a hypocrite, morally.
Athias Post #46:
No, one is still very much a hypocrite because tacit legitimization is being provided in one's acceptance. Social security payments aren't doled out on one's own terms; it's on the government's terms. And it neither prevents nor stops the government from its continued thievery.


ADreamOfLiberty
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@Athias
Those appear to be simple assertions to me, I need something more precise to understand.

How do you define "participation" and how does your given definition imply hypocrisy?

Keep in mind hypocrisy is acting in contradiction to stated principles, and one of Rand's stated principles is the golden rule. In other words, she would not be a hypocrite to shoot back. She was very clear about the moral error being in the "initiation" of force, not counter attacking.

Once you are more precise we can apply your argument to a slave plantation.
Average_Person
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@IwantRooseveltagain
FDR shared his father's bond with the democratic party you mf
Average_Person
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and thats how he beacme popular u mf
Greyparrot
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Well genius, you get way more from Social Security and Medicare than you pay in to those programs.


Hell, Social security has not even kept up with inflation in the last decade, meaning you are losing your wealth.

What a royal scam perpetuated on the financially ignorant.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot
You found the claim that social security (which they have stolen from and has zero assets) is a magic factory of wealth on the order of $1 million per person sane enough to respond to huh?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Like it was soooo hard to find....

And the giant pension and investment fund run by the government of Norway earned 10.9%.
The returns earned by Social Security is the scandal that keeps on taking. The previous year, the Norwegian pension fund gained 20%, the balanced index fund 22%, and the S&P 500 31%.

Your and my Social Security dollars? Just 2.2%.
No, I’m not kidding. So far in 2021 the fund’s returns have been less than the rate of inflation.

Actually, over the past 10 years the returns of the Norwegian fund have outpaced those of our Social Security dollars by more than 400%. That balanced fund has beaten Social Security by nearly 600%.


And President Roosevelt wanted to use Social Security’s funds to help pay for government deficits.
Greyparrot
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Do you know any portfolio adviser that would recommend a 100% investment in T-bills? Good lord.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot

And President Roosevelt wanted to use Social Security’s funds to help pay for government deficits.
Well now I need to make something clear, you do know there is no social security investment fund right? They never invested the SS payments into private stocks. It gets routed straight to the normal federal budget, which we know they don't use for investment. Roosevelt's want came to pass.

If the social security entitlement is going up it's purely arbitrary, probably based on legislation. There is nothing in the bank. EMPTY, your SS money is wasted with the rest.

It's not a safety net, it's just another IOU from a government fantastically deep in debt. No legal recompense is possible either, if they actually need to pay out they'll just dilute the currency which is why it can't outpace inflation.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well now I need to make something clear, you do know there is no social security investment fund right? They never invested the SS payments into private stocks. It gets routed straight to the normal federal budget, which we know they don't use for investment. Roosevelt's want came to pass.
It's a portfolio with a 100% investment in T-bills. Which are worth nothing as inflation rises. Huge Ponzi scheme, investing in the government. Yet another involuntary tax.
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@Greyparrot
Well now I need to make something clear, you do know there is no social security investment fund right? They never invested the SS payments into private stocks. It gets routed straight to the normal federal budget, which we know they don't use for investment. Roosevelt's want came to pass.
It's a portfolio with a 100% investment in T-bills.
Oookkk, but the net result is the same. Let's not get confused by organized crime style book-keeping.

Treasury bills are where you give them USD and they promise to give you USD at some rate of return. If all your income buys T-bills all your income goes straight to the general federal budget.


Which are worth nothing as inflation rises. Huge Ponzi scheme, investing in the government. Yet another involuntary tax.
Yes, it's not an investment. If they invested in private stocks they would still be on the hook for stealing the money and ruining businesses but at least they wouldn't have given themselves the power to spend the money instantly on government waste.

There are no assets. If you buy half of Microsoft you have bought rights to assets. When you buy a T bill there is no asset, just the promise that the US government will steal to pay you back.

The reason the other portfolios are going up 20% is because that's inflation. They didn't go up 20% in real value, the currencies went down 1 - 1/120%.