There is no palestine

Author: Vegasgiants

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#61
Greyparrot
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@WillyB
and putting your guns down etc is not the right thing to do if you’re fighting evil. 
My point is that USA didn't have to stop at dropping 2 nuclear bombs. There was plenty of "evil" in the world left for the USA to conquer, but they chose to lower their guns instead..... well until Korea...Vietnam...etc...

Oh comeon man, you have to be American to understand.
#62
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@FLRW
@Sidewalker
If they give us back the $24 in beads, they can have Manhattan back.
It's actually happening lol!


#63
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@WillyB
Of course the colonised should end the violence rather than the colonisers,
In every war the USA "won", yes that's what happened. Both sides put their guns down, and the winner gets to choose to define what "evil" is.
#64
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@Greyparrot
There’s been no point since WW2 that the US has lowered its guns

#65
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@Greyparrot
I mean the US won in Iraq, but we all know that what they did there was evil. The British won many colonial wars, like the Zulu war, again we know what the British did was evil and anyway when we can literally see with our own eyes and critical thinking skills what is happening in front of us, we don’t need a winner to tell us who is evil. But then again, I’m not American so I don’t know what it’s like to be at the receiving end of some of the most effective propaganda ever

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#66
Vegasgiants
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@WillyB
You are simply on the receiving end of the umbrella of our protection 
#67
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@WillyB
USA was actually close to nuking china after ww2. Instead of the conventional Korean war.
#68
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@Greyparrot
I guess I should by thankful they didn’t do it and instead just did war another way

#69
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@Vegasgiants
I assume you mean American protection? In which case the Umbrella is rammed up my arse and opened in my intestines and protecting me from what exactly I’m not sure🤷‍♂️

#70
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@WillyB
I think the point is that Americans don't know how to put the gun down and work for actual peace. PLO doesn't either.

The American elites, like the PLO, don't simply want "land"

They want world hegemony, and the eradication of everything that is not "them"
land is just an afterthought and collateral.

Nowhere is this more apparent than what is happening in Ukraine. Much of the land has been blasted on both sides after 9 years of perpetual artillery strikes. Land is collateral to the supreme motivation for the war. The elimination of the other, whether it's Kiev, Donbas Russians, or Moscow Russians.

The proof is the endless war pictures of blasted wastelands for hundreds of square kilometers.

It's been 9 years since the start of the 2014 war in Donbas. That's a long time. Hundreds of thousands of artillery strikes to the land. Endless land mines. It's most definitely not about "land" anymore. There's no value to any of the land now.
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#71
Vegasgiants
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@WillyB
You're welcome
#72
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@Greyparrot
For sure, when it’s the US, Russia etc it’s about power and authority over everyone and everything, that’s undeniable. And I think that for say the PLO or Kosovo then it is a mixture of getting the land and basically ethnic superiority, same on the opposite side for Israel and Serbia. But I mean you bomb Ukraine and don’t expect a response? You kick out Palestinians from their homes, treat them as second class citizens, murder and rape them and you don’t expect a retaliation? And in terms of no value to Ukrainian land, there is it can act as a buffer zone (iron curtain if you will) between west (EU and NATO) and Russia, it may have no monetary value, but it has political and military value

#73
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@Vegasgiants
Thank you big Yankee america for bombing my family and aiding their death. 🦅🦅🦅🦅
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#74
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@WillyB
You're welcome
#75
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@WillyB
I'm not entirely convinced NATO is going to be satisfied with a buffer zone as that would mean an official end to NATO expansion.
#76
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@WillyB
Mostly what I hear as an American, is Americans, telling me how evil America is.
Still, maybe vocal minority on their part, and selective memory on my part.

The Zulu Kingdom expanded through war,
Iraq invaded Iran in 1980.

That's not to say America is 'good, or the Zulu Kingdom and Iraq evil,
But I don't find British or American actions exceptional.
. . .

I think the modern West is more peaceful, than not.
#77
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@WillyB
But I mean you bomb Ukraine and don’t expect a response? 
Ukraine was bombing itself long before Russia joined in. Everyone wants to forget 2014 like it never happened. That was the US response to those bombings. Silence. Tacit approval.
#78
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@Greyparrot

You know that in February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine, don't you?
#79
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@FLRW
Yeah, funny how America had a problem with that, yet also approved Kiev killing innocent people in the Donbas. The properly approved people have to die you know. The rest can suffer.

9 straight years of cratered land. And for what? So NATO doesn't have to say no to Expansion? None of that had to happen if NATO was ok with a buffer state.
#80
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@Lemming
Of course the modern west is more peaceful and the world in general due to general understanding of borders and international rules and laws. But whilst the west may be on the face of it peaceful, what it has caused in its history, both modern and fairly old, is complete misery and underdevelopment of other nations. This as well as the west (mostly america) insisting on violently overthrowing governments and meddling in elections, seems to me that the West is not peaceful, as long as the violence isn’t near them geographically
#81
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@b9_ntt
It is you who changed the subject actually.

The subject is if Palestine is a country being denied the right to self-determine into a nation.
#82
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@WillyB
I don't find negative American influence on other countries exceptional,
Whether in the modern era, or past history.

The world had come too far, at the end of WW2,
Isolationism, no longer an option,
No longer an age of wooden boats,
Rather of aluminum planes.

We defeated the Axis,
But in one of our allies, found an enemy,
The USSR.

In an age of nukes, of massive armies,
The Cold War begun.
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I'd say in 'hindsight, the Domino Theory of Communism was mistaken,
Though perhaps part of it's failure, was due to Stalin, being more 'Nationalist, than 'Communist (I 'think)

But America was faced with a great enemy,
And viewed Communism much the way it viewed Nazism,
Dictatorship, Force, Tyranny.
. .

The mistake, in 'my view,
Was thinking that the Communists would put the cause before their nations,
But perhaps they 'might have, and it was not so wrong a view.
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Many an American citizen, soldier, and leader,
'Believed in the righteousness of their cause,
Though perhaps too did the USSR.
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If destruction and tyranny were Americas goal,
There would be far more of it.

But speak on, I am curious of your views.
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#83
Vegasgiants
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@RationalMadman
But it's not a country and never has been.  People in a area don't get a country just because they say they want one
#84
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@Lemming
Don’t mistake destruction and tyranny for selfishness and lack of empathy. What you said about the Cold War is largely accurate in my eyes, e.g Vietnam was not about communism for the VC and NV, but about a United Vietnam after years of colonialism and lack of identity and sovereignty. If America wanted to, sure it could just destroy the world, but that’s not beneficial to its wants. I’d describe it more that the overarching belief of the US is its own self-interest and that it is willing to cause and push tyranny and destruction onto land and people in order to fulfil this goal (see Vietnam, Chile and Nicaragua) but it also doesn’t need to cause tyranny and destruction to fulfil its goal (see election meddling in Italy or the security and aid it gives to nations like UK and Palau). Also when you say in hindsight domino theory was wrong, they knew this at the time and still went ahead with Vietnam and Cambodian excursion.

#85
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@WillyB
I've read 'one book about Vietnam, it 'was a big book,
As I recall and Google tells,
After the French got defeated, Vietnam got split in two, though I am uncertain 'why,
Hm,
Looks like a 'lot of reasons, lot of confusion,
I note a number of people migrated south and north,

I remember reading how Ho Chi Minh tried reaching out to American government in past, similarities in Declaration of Independence to American document.

I'm of the view that American leaders at the time and short after,
Were still big on the Domino theory,
But additionally thought negatively of Communism.
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The destruction would be through conquest,
And if ambition and self interest were America's 'main goal,
I think they would have tried then and now conquest,
As America expanded in previous ages, using conquest.
Short ages before,
But still, America changed.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Events such as the Cambodian Genocide,
Russian Gulags,
Chinese Cultural Revolution,
Cold War,

Did not turn America favorably to Communism,
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I've 'heard of Chile and Nicaragua, but I haven't read even one book on them yet.

I 'would agree self interest plays into a number of America's actions,
Though I am not willing to discount completely idealism.

Do you have a source on them knowing the Domino Theory was wrong?
American leadership varies greatly.

'Democracy proved a Domino Line of sorts after the American Revolution and French Revolution,

The Communist International,
States outright I think, for World Communism.
#86
WillyB
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@Lemming

I personally believe that people like LBJ, Nixon, Kissinger and McNamara knew that domino theory was not correct, but it was convenient to ignore this and continue to fight all ‘communistic governments’ 

You should read Killing Hope by William Blum, it gives a good overview of post WW2 American foreign involvement. I’d also recommend How to Hide an Empire and Bitter Fruit: coup in Guatemala, if you want to look into the American involvements in more detail and specifically.

I think that the US idealism and self interest are hugely interlinked. The US benefits greatly from spreading capitalism to Guatemala for example, as wages are kept lower, land is owned by few Pro-American people and the market is monopolised by the US backed corporations, leading to profits for America. In many instances the US idealism was just a scapegoat, many places of intervention weren’t communist in the slightest and even in many socialist or left-wing governments like Iran and Iraq in the 1950s there was not much of an internal communist presence or external soviet help and control.

In terms of the Gulags etc not turning america communist, the flip side can easily be made. American mass killing in Iraq and Vietnam hasn’t made those countries American leaning, neither has government overthrow in Iran or meddling in Russia. 

#87
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@WillyB
Leaders don't necessarily 'listen, agree, or think reports that they read are 'correct,
One see's this often, even in science,
People can be selective about who they listen to,
One can see this with people and news networks,
Or can disbelieve a report because it goes against what they want,
Example we're in a war, I don't want to lose the war, the report is probably wrong.

I could believe the people who wrote and researched the report believe it,
And that it's possible some people who read the report believed it,
But I don't know if 'all who read it, believed it.
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Two more books for my reading list.
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I'd agree American interest and values are often linked,
It's easier to go into a war, by appealing to people's values,
So naturally politicians often take advantage of this, (Though not 'all politicians all the time)
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I agree America has a number of bad actions itself in history,
But I use the Communism examples, as a further show of how extreme I perceive the rivalry in that time to have been.
#88
WillyB
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@Lemming
I agree that leaders will often ignore reports for their own interests, this happened numerous times with the CIA, the US governments accepts a report that the Guatemalan government needs to be overthrown, but rejects the report that Soviet citizens generally speaking had better nutrition and diets than American (in order for American propaganda to continue to be pumped out) . American values, in my eyes, are essentially we know best, we’re the best and we can do what we want, not necessarily linked to ‘classic American values like freedom, democracy and free markets’ example seen with the Mujahideen, in which no values were shared. I would agree with most of the things you say and some of the outlooks you’ve given have been interesting.
#89
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@WillyB
I'm not 'nearly as well read as I'd like to be,
And possibly a bit too idealistic, despite a fair amount of pessimism.

Googling,
Guatemala America coup reddit,
Why did the CIA overthrow so many countries reddit

And I 'remember, reading or hearing about that fruit company before,
And ja, 'how 'much the CIA involved in self, in 'so many countries,
Depressing.
#90
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@Vegasgiants
Then debate me on whether or not Palestine was and is a nation.