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@keithprosser
But I don't think the best way forward.
What do you mean by " the best way forward" ?
Think Islam is a religion of peace? Think again.
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Total:
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@secularmerlin
There you see. Faith based beliefs can be used to harm others. (In this case harming the self esteem of individuals who are only fulfilling their primary biological function).
Like I said.
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@secularmerlin
Firstly psalms 137:9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks
Yes 137:9 is absolutely disgraceful and should be condemned. What's your point? This is from the Hebrew scripture it has absolutely no bearing on the situation today in ISRAEL and you, just like Keith Prosser are wasting your time trying to contextualise it with today's ISLAMIC barbarity You're clutching at straws in defence of an vile and vicious ideology that has one single purpose and makes absolutely no secret of it aim.
Secondly it hardly matters what the new testament says since Jesus specifically states that he did not come to change a dot or letter of the (old testament) laws (Mathew 5:18) so all the violence commanded and condoned by Yahweh carries over.
Stop it. 1st, you do not even know which "laws" Jesus was referring to . 2nd how many laws were "carried over" that are carried out by Christians today on the strict instruction of Jesus the Christ as are the instructions and laws laid down by the Quran and the Sunnah to this day? Do Christians stone adulterers today as do muslims in the name of their religion.?
Lastly it doesn't matter what a faith based system actually teaches. Even if the belief is all about sunshine and rainbows it still carries the potential to be used as a justification for doing harm to the "nonbeliever" and christianity, which has observably resulted in human atrocities, is no exception to the rule.
I agree. There have been atrocities committed by Christians, I have already said so. But show me where in the New Testament does the Christ himself instruct his followers to go out into the world to rape and maim and murder IN HIS NAME anyone for not believing in him as does the Quran? You have failed already to show me this evidence.
This does not mean however that I am singling christianity out.
No , it is you trying to say that these religions are exactly the same when they are clearly not. Muslims are taught to hate non believers. This is a fact. this is not to say that they all do.
Recently, the great scholar, Shaykh Saalih ibn Fowzaan al-Fowzaan (may Allaah preserve him) was asked:
"What is the ruling on rejecting the idea of hatred for the sake of Allaah and claiming that it is not from Islam? Is a person"s Islaam valid if he does not hate the Jews and Christians"?
The Islamic scholar responded:
"Walaa" and baraa" (the islamic system of loyalty) is a must. (It is) disallegiance with the enemies of Allaah (the disbelievers)and loyalty to the allies of Allaah. Walaa" and baraa" means to have hatred, declaring oneself free of them (the disbelievers) and their religion, this is baraa".
"Indeed you have a good example in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: We are free of you and all that you worship beside Allaah"" [Meaning of Quran 60:4]
"Indeed you have a good example in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: We are free of you and all that you worship beside Allaah"" [Meaning of Quran 60:4]
This was declaring themselves free of unbelievers and their idols and their objects of worship.
""We are free of you and all that you worship beside Allaah. We have disbelieved in you (i.e. your religion), and there shall be enmity and hatred between us forever, unless you believe in Allaah alone." [Meaning of Quran 60:4]
"Thus it is not permissible to love the disbelievers. Whoever takes them as allies, Allaah, the Mighty and Most High", has said:
"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and Christians as allies! They are allies of one another. Whoever takes them as allies is indeed from them. Verily Allaah does not guide people who are oppressive." [Meaning of Quran 5:51]
"The issue is very serious. Walaa" (loyalty) and baraa" (disallegiance) are from the essential foundations of this Religion: Islaam. The religion (of a person) is not valid without both of them".
The shaykh"s answer given on 23/8/2013 in Jeddah.
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@Grugore
I hear it all the time. Idiots claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion. Well, I'm here to set the record straight. Read this and learn the truth.
The Storyof Mohammed Islam Unveiled
by
Harry Richardson
4.13 · Rating details · 430 ratings · 60 reviews
The Story of Mohammed
Islam Unveiled
(Non-fiction full length book)
Do Non-Muslims Need to Know The Story of Mohammed?
Yes they do!!!
Mohammed’s story is the most incredible story never told. It is said that truthis stranger than fiction and honestly, NO-ONE could have made this up. Thereare battles, murders, intrigues, rapes, assassinations, torture, intimidation,and much much more. Along the way Mohammed invented Jihad, the most effectivesystem of conquest ever devised.
Mohammed’s life story is also the key which unlocks the complexities andconfusion of the Islamic religion itself. By understanding his story we quicklygain a clear insight into the Islamic religion and the incredible importancethis holds for our future.
This amazing book pulls no punches and brings the subject to life in a waywhich is both fascinating and informative. Rather than looking at Islam througha prism of Western (and by default, Christian) perspective, it takes Islamapart and explains the Islamic perspective itself.
In doing so it illuminates the stark contrasts between Western and Islamicethics and beliefs in clear and simple language which makes it a delight toread. There are no apologies, no excuses and no pretending. This is not Islamas we want it to be, this is Islam as it really is, warts and all. Every pageis packed with important, but little known facts and key passages from Islam’sholy books. These are carefully arranged and then cemented into place withlogical and insightful commentary which reveals the true picture, as Islamicscholars have always known it. This is the information which is never reportedby the mainstream and this book will have you turning pages right to the veryend.
The reader is then left with an entirely new understanding of issues such asterrorism, the treatment of women, immigration and poverty. Inexplicableactions suddenly begin to make perfect sense. Seemingly insane or randombehaviour fits perfectly into a well thought out and wildly successfulstrategy. By the end, the reader is hit with a real sense of the vitalimportance of this information.
Millions of people, both Muslims and non Muslims are tragically affected byaspects of Islam. More than 95% of all wars and armed conflict today involveMuslims. Muslims also suffer some of the highest rates of poverty, disease,hunger, illiteracy, environmental degradation and many more crippling disadvantages.
Islam is also increasingly affecting the Western World and not just throughterrorism. Muslims make up 5% of the population of Denmark and yet they areestimated to absorb 50% of that countries welfare budget. Other Westerncountries face similar challenges.
These problems all have their roots in Islam. The good news is that they canall be fixed. By tackling the subject head on, this book leaves us with theknowledge and understanding to address these problems with logical and wellthought out solutions rather than hiding behind fine sounding, politicallycorrect assumptions which have no basis in fact.
Pat Fraser described it as follows:
“A hard hitting book confronting a world epidemic. Using language for all agesand levels of education, the author has clearly illustrated the history andradical concepts behind one of the world’s largest and most influentialreligions. Written free from bias or personal agenda, it is a must read book totruly gain an understanding into the darker sides of this belief and thenegative effects they have had on countries around the globe. If for greaterunderstanding or just personal interest, this is definitely worth yourtime”.
Ishiro Yamamoto called this “A truly informative and well researched work thatshould be read by all those who wish to know the real truth”.
by
Harry Richardson
The Story of Mohammed
Islam Unveiled
(Non-fiction full length book)
Do Non-Muslims Need to Know The Story of Mohammed?
Yes they do!!!
Mohammed’s story is the most incredible story never told. It is said that truthis stranger than fiction and honestly, NO-ONE could have made this up. Thereare battles, murders, intrigues, rapes, assassinations, torture, intimidation,and much much more. Along the way Mohammed invented Jihad, the most effectivesystem of conquest ever devised.
Mohammed’s life story is also the key which unlocks the complexities andconfusion of the Islamic religion itself. By understanding his story we quicklygain a clear insight into the Islamic religion and the incredible importancethis holds for our future.
This amazing book pulls no punches and brings the subject to life in a waywhich is both fascinating and informative. Rather than looking at Islam througha prism of Western (and by default, Christian) perspective, it takes Islamapart and explains the Islamic perspective itself.
In doing so it illuminates the stark contrasts between Western and Islamicethics and beliefs in clear and simple language which makes it a delight toread. There are no apologies, no excuses and no pretending. This is not Islamas we want it to be, this is Islam as it really is, warts and all. Every pageis packed with important, but little known facts and key passages from Islam’sholy books. These are carefully arranged and then cemented into place withlogical and insightful commentary which reveals the true picture, as Islamicscholars have always known it. This is the information which is never reportedby the mainstream and this book will have you turning pages right to the veryend.
The reader is then left with an entirely new understanding of issues such asterrorism, the treatment of women, immigration and poverty. Inexplicableactions suddenly begin to make perfect sense. Seemingly insane or randombehaviour fits perfectly into a well thought out and wildly successfulstrategy. By the end, the reader is hit with a real sense of the vitalimportance of this information.
Millions of people, both Muslims and non Muslims are tragically affected byaspects of Islam. More than 95% of all wars and armed conflict today involveMuslims. Muslims also suffer some of the highest rates of poverty, disease,hunger, illiteracy, environmental degradation and many more crippling disadvantages.
Islam is also increasingly affecting the Western World and not just throughterrorism. Muslims make up 5% of the population of Denmark and yet they areestimated to absorb 50% of that countries welfare budget. Other Westerncountries face similar challenges.
These problems all have their roots in Islam. The good news is that they canall be fixed. By tackling the subject head on, this book leaves us with theknowledge and understanding to address these problems with logical and wellthought out solutions rather than hiding behind fine sounding, politicallycorrect assumptions which have no basis in fact.
Pat Fraser described it as follows:
“A hard hitting book confronting a world epidemic. Using language for all agesand levels of education, the author has clearly illustrated the history andradical concepts behind one of the world’s largest and most influentialreligions. Written free from bias or personal agenda, it is a must read book totruly gain an understanding into the darker sides of this belief and thenegative effects they have had on countries around the globe. If for greaterunderstanding or just personal interest, this is definitely worth yourtime”.
Ishiro Yamamoto called this “A truly informative and well researched work thatshould be read by all those who wish to know the real truth”.
After reading most of these replies, it is apparent that not one single person has tried to refute anything that Mr Richardson said in his book. I'll bet that no one has even read it. So here's a challenge for you. Pick anything he said and try to refute it. I bet you cant do it. Because everything he said is the truth.
Islam definitely enforces modes of thinking that are toxic to human welfare.
For example, there's "Atomism", which establishes that Allah recreates the Universe every moment, and that there are no fixed laws of physics or science. As a consequence, the Muslim world has seen extremely little in terms of indigenous scientific advancement, and its soldiers in particular are garbage because they rarely bother to work out military strategy and just assume that Allah will give them the victory. It's a collective learned helplessness that breeds inferior people.
Additionally, the prevailing mindset in the Muslim world is that everything that happened happened because somebody caused it to happen. So whenever anything bad or otherwise undesirable happens over there, their first instinct is to blame some conspiracy against Islam, for which somebody needs to pay. That's why they hate the West and why they're so prone to murder the indigenous Christians and Jews living in their midst.
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@Grugore
After reading most of these replies,
Try reading all the replies. I don't have to read The Story of Mohammed Islam Unveiled ( although I will when I have more time).
I notice the author Harry Richardson says much of his source material comes from "Ibn Ishaq" the most revered and trusted Muslim scholars of all time and whose work I have already suggested opologist like keith prosser reads.
When I began looking into this Islamic ideology Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad was the first work I read.
Interesting comment here from Ayatollah Khomeini;
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
I suppose the apologist here will tell us that Ayatollah Khomeini who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, ' didn't know what he was talking about and was:
" woefully ignorant of Islam".
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@keithprosser
i recommend people treat what they read accordingly.
Indeed and they should accept this easily researched fact:
To be a Muslim means to accept that Muhammad was the perfect Human Being. His life is theexample for all Muslims to follow in every way possible. Of course not all Muslims are verysuccessful in this endeavour but the level of devoutness of a Muslim is judged by how closely hefollows Muhammad’s example and teachings.
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@Stephen
And mohammed was a murderer and a pedophile. Explains a lot. Doesn't it?
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@Grugore
And mohammed was a murderer and a pedophile. Explains a lot. Doesn't it?
All minutia to the apologist I should imagine and they will come back with something NT "Christian" or OT "Hebrew" in some vain attempt to counter or equal those facts. Or simply tell lies. That is always an option for Muslims and Christians alike, and usually the first option in the case of muslims
This below is what the opologist have to swallow but they just hate facts from Islamic sources as as do Christians hate when the bleeding obvious is pointed out to them from New Testament Christian sources
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
Ayatollah Khomeini.
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@Grugore
Here's one for you.
The bible commands that you stone to death any woman raped within city limits.
Refute it and prove your religion is peaceful.
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@Polytheist-Witch
This says nothing about my self esteem.
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@Stephen
All faith based beliefs can be dangerous. Nothing you have said contradicts this.
I think it is worth stating that Islam really is a world domination scheme, and there is nothing tolerant about it.
It is not "Islamaphobia", it is a real thing.
The secularists who defend it don't realize that they are actually the ones most likely to be executed if Muslims gain power. Christians would be repressed, but would at least be allowed to exist in a limited capacity. Well, I'm not sure about the borderline antinomian protestants.. they'll probably be looked at as hypocrites and executed along with the polytheists and godless blasphemers.
It really isn't fear mongering, it is built into the religion.
Don't get me wrong though, the proper Christian way to treat a Muslim is to show them charity, not persecute them.
It is not "Islamaphobia", it is a real thing.
The secularists who defend it don't realize that they are actually the ones most likely to be executed if Muslims gain power. Christians would be repressed, but would at least be allowed to exist in a limited capacity. Well, I'm not sure about the borderline antinomian protestants.. they'll probably be looked at as hypocrites and executed along with the polytheists and godless blasphemers.
It really isn't fear mongering, it is built into the religion.
Don't get me wrong though, the proper Christian way to treat a Muslim is to show them charity, not persecute them.
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@secularmerlin
All faith based beliefs can be dangerous. Nothing you have said contradicts this.
And I haven't tried to contradict anything. So trying to lead readers to believe I have, is deceitful.. I have made the distinction about the direct orders of Allah and his "perfect" prophet and those of Jesus the Christ.
Try letting this sink in and answer the question.
Ayatollah Khomeini;
“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”
Would you say that Ayatollah Khomeini who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, was " woefully ignorant of Islam"?
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@Stephen
I am not defending Islam. Trying to lead readers to believe this is deceitful. Of course there is always the chance that I am not implying that you are trying to contradict anything and you are not implying that I am defending Islam. So far as far as I know all that has happened is that I have said that ALL faith based beliefs can be dangerous and you have not said anything that contradicts this.
I will say that it is wrong from my perspective to discriminate against individuals based on their beliefs and that I know Muslims who are peaceful and gentle individuals who respect the beliefs of others no matter what their religion teaches.
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@Mopac
from your link
AllMuslims Must Make Jihad
"Jihad isan obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded.Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of themartyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have actedsimilarly and who have modeled themselves upon the martyrs in their performanceof jihad can join them in this reward. Furthermore, Allah has specificallyhonoured the Mujahideen {those who wage jihad} with certain exceptionalqualities, both spiritual and practical, to benefit them in this world and thenext. Their pure blood is a symbol of victory in this world and the mark ofsuccess and felicity in the world to come.
Those whocan only find excuses, however, have been warned of extremely dreadfulpunishments and Allah has described them with the most unfortunate of names. Hehas reprimanded them for their cowardice and lack of spirit, and castigatedthem for their weakness and truancy. In this world, they will be surrounded bydishonour and in the next they will be surrounded by the fire from which theyshall not escape though they may possess much wealth. The weaknesses ofabstention and evasion of jihad are regarded by Allah as one of the major sins,and one of the seven sins that guarantee failure.
Islam isconcerned with the question of jihad and the drafting and the mobilisation ofthe entire Umma (the global Muslim community) into one body to defend the rightcause with all its strength than any other ancient or modern system of living,whether religious or civil. The verses of the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Muhammad(PBUH {Peace Be Unto Him}) are overflowing with all these noble ideals and theysummon people in general (with the most eloquent expression and the clearestexposition) to jihad, to warfare, to the armed forces, and all means of landand sea fighting".
At this time the Brotherhood was estimated to have 2000 branches and well over 500,000 members or sympathizers in Egypt alone.
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@secularmerlin
I know Muslims who are peaceful and gentle individuals who respect the beliefs of others no matter what their religion teaches.
I should imagine that most of us do by now, I am sure. But this doesn't make "Islam a religion of peace", does it?
Just for once I wish you apologist for Islam would tell us all what is so beautiful and right about Islam?
peaceful and gentle individuals who respect the beliefs of others
Indeed while in the minority.
I will say that it is wrong from my perspective to discriminate against individuals based on their beliefs
More misleading and deceit.. This is another typical ploy of apologists for Islam. Criticizing Islam is not discriminating against the individual. Islam is not a person, it is not a race no more than christianity is a person or race. So stop implying that I am attacking Muslims, it is old hat and doesn't work anymore.
But that said, I am sure it won't be .long before Muslims start demanding they are seen as one race this then will give a "definition" to the silly word "islamophobia" and every White Westerner who criticizes Islam, will be charged with a "hate crime", now that would be "racist" wouldn't it? ; we are not far off that now.
How do you account for the 19million peaceful Muslims currently living in the European Union? You see, what you are alluding to as non peaceful is the book you have heard spoken of, not the people who practice the religion. How many Christians have stoned a rape victim to death as their book (god) commands? The bible is not a book of peace because it, like the Quran, was written by ignorant, primitive superstitious savages.
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@Stephen
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if anyone doubts the beauty of some of the Islamic architecture they are blind, but there is nothing right about any religion, why pick on one? All gods and all religions are the creation of men and have no place in reality.Just for once I wish you apologist for Islam would tell us all what is so beautiful and right about Islam?
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@Stephen
Islam is not a religion of peace. I never said it was. There is no religion of peace. I am not an Islam apologist. I don't know what is beautiful or right about the belief itself.
I suppose you could argue that peaceful Muslims are a minority but that is not borne out by my experience since I have never personally met a violent Muslim.
You are correct that criticizing Islam (the belief) is not the same as discrimination against Muslims. That being said exactly what would you like to see happen in regards to Islam and muslims? For that matter what would you like to see done about other possibly violent beliefs? Beliefs that call for the exalecution of homosexuals, nonvirgin women, divorced women and people that work on any day of the week they choose for example? I'm pretty sure if we ban Islam for it's violent commands it would logically follow that we should ban any belief system with similar commands. Are we upset about thise too or just Islam?
Could everyone please stay on topic? This thread is about the TEACHINGS OF ISLAM. The article I posted explains, in detail, the life of Mohammed and his teachings using the original sources. Feel free to try to refute this. But stay on topic.
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@keithprosser
What if the title was "Think Christianity is a religion of peace? Think again", and all the following posts had been targeted at Christianity.To do that properly you have to imagine the item linked to is a polemic against Christianity full of half-truths and cherry-picked quotations beret of their context intended to inflame anti-Chrisitian sentiment.If that was the case there'd be no need for me to say anything - loads of Christian DA members would have got in first! But becase the target is Islam such material goes not merely unchallenged but endorsed, even by many people who are in general terms 'liberal'.There's plenty not to like about Islam and of course there is a political problem that needs addressing. But I don't think the best way forward is to spread anti-Islamic and anti-Muslim populist propaganda. Scratch that - it's the worse possible way forward.
I would tend to agree. And there is no comparatively large population of Muslims here in America to raise the same populous outcry, just a minority and its white knights.
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@Castin
Yeah, the United States and the UK are in two different circumstances. Both countries have oceans on their side for immigration policy, but the United States has not accepted massive amounts of refugess from the disasters in the middle east, less than 1% population coming mostly from African countries vs 5% mostly from areas effected by the likes of wahhabism. The United States of course, is swamped with a migration crisis of its own arising out of Latin America. "The way forward" likely means a different thing from a UK perspective.
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@Grugore
Could everyone please stay on topic? This thread is about the TEACHINGS OF ISLAM. The article I posted explains, in detail, the life of Mohammed and his teachings using the original sources. Feel free to try to refute this. But stay on topic.
There is no single 'teaching' of islam. Even more so than Christians, Muslims are not encouraged to intrepret their sacred texts themselves but to rely on the interpretation by scholars. It almost goes without saying that almost any conceivable 'slant' has been espoused by some scholar or school. Wahabbist islam is very different from Ahmdiyya Islam. Indeed violence within islam exceeds that between islam and 'infidels' by a considerable margin.
However a certain type of critic of Islam is uninterested in all that. They see Islam as a monolithic threat to their cuture and portray it as such. The inevitable consequence of their writing and rhetoric is to ratchet up inter-community distrust and paranoia. It is disenguous to claim that consequence is unintended or accidental.
Hardly anyone in the west thought about Islam before the 1970s. The 1972 Munich olympics attack was considered as politically, not religiously, motivated. The qu'ran and hadith have not changed in the meantime, but hardline, conservative and fundamentaist interpretations have become much more influential.
i'm not interested in simplistic and populist pseudo-analyses that are essentially rationalisations of old fashioned xenophobia such as the pdf linked in the op.
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@keithprosser
conservative and fundamentaist interpretations
Fundamentalist interpretations are genuine. The reason fundamentalism is used with pejorative by the Roman Catholic church is in the context of protestants who do not accept all its tradition/teachings, and had to work with a leaner, more basic means of holding the faith.
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@Plisken
I don't think you really think a fundamentalist interpretation of the koran is the genuine word of God.
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@keithprosser
I am open to the idea actually, but theology is very difficult being more versed in Judaism and Christianity. I think it would appeal more from a standpoint that is highly heretical, or paganistic to submit to Islam. None the less, a fundamentalist interpretation of the Qur'an is Islam.
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@Plisken
That would be the opinion of some scholars, other scholars would disagree. And those that agree will disgree what the 'fundamental' meaning is!