Where do the LGB on DART stand on the T and drag queen groomer issue?

Author: RationalMadman
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#31
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@TheMorningsStar
I also think that drag is inherently sexual, and that there very much is a grooming aspect.
Counter: Bugs Bunny in drag is inherently sexual?  I don't think so. Could it be that this has more to do with women being perceived as inherently sexual carrying over to anything/anyone presenting as feminine? If so, it's a perception issue rather than a presentation issue.

As for grooming? A perusal of recent sex offenders isn't likely to include a drag queen as lawyer Kristen Prata Browe has shown. Link I think her most recent vids are from March, but the point stands. 




#32
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Oh, and there were drugs, alcohol and sex toys abound. 
#33
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@SkepticalOne
Counter: Bugs Bunny in drag is inherently sexual?
I mean, yes. Have you watched those clips? Bugs always acts in a way that accentuates the sexual aspects of the female form when he is in drag (rather than just using female clothing as a disguise). The cartoony and comedic nature of the show helps to mitigate things, but that doesn't make drag less of a sexual thing.

Could it be that this has more to do with women being perceived as inherently sexual carrying over to anything/anyone presenting as feminine?
Not at all. Women are not inherently sexual, I have never pushed such thinking either (in fact, I have often pushed against such a notion).

As for grooming? A perusal of recent sex offenders isn't likely to include a drag queen as lawyer Kristen Prata Browe has shown. Link I think her most recent vids are from March, but the point stands. 
This is why multiple drag queens that do reading at Drag Queen Story Hour have been found to been convicted pedophiles, that we see some stories  of Drag Queens (like Anastasia Diamond) have recently been found with child porn, oh, and most importantly, the exact points I made about both child drag shows (even giving an example) where you can find them acting no different than some strippers and the article that outlines the purpose of Drag Queen Story Hour that implicitly admits that it is about grooming (an article I even linked).

I mean, come on man, you were so much better at objectively addressing points, even from people you disagreed with, and constructing sound arguments in political discussions back on DDO. What happened in the last few years?
#34
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@thett3
I have an extended family member who around age 13 or so didn’t want to wear girl clothes and for a time decided she was “non-binary.”
I honestly think the whole "non-binary" thing most helps show that the ideology relies on sexist stereotyping. Ask any non-binary person what makes them non-binary and you will always get to something built upon sexist stereotyping. Even if they say something vague like they don't "feel like a boy/girl", pressing on that reveals some sort of stereotype on what they think it means to feel like a boy/girl that they don't fit.
It is why you increasingly see stories of parents with tomboy daughters constantly having people question if their daughters are trans or not.
#35
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@TheMorningsStar
child drag shows (even giving an example) where you can find them acting no different than some strippers

Its called lowering the bar.

You know, slowly adapting people to accept something.
#36
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@TheMorningsStar
As for grooming? A perusal of recent sex offenders isn't likely to include a drag queen as lawyer Kristen Prata Browe has shown. Link I think her most recent vids are from March, but the point stands. 
This is why multiple drag queens that do reading at Drag Queen Story Hour have been found to been convicted pedophiles, that we see some stories of Drag Queens (like Anastasia Diamond) have recently been found with child porn, oh, and most importantly, the exact points I made about both child drag shows (even giving an example) where you can find them acting no different than some strippers and the article that outlines the purpose of Drag Queen Story Hour that implicitly admits that it is about grooming (an article I even linked).
First, there was no link in the post I responded to. (#10). Secondly, a drag performer being a sex offender doesn't disprove the fact that drag queens arent very likely to be sex offenders. If our conception of groomers were informed by who is actually being charged sex crimes against children then we would need to be much more concerned about politicians and religious leaders. Clearly, "drag queens are groomers!" isn't based on who harms children the most (or even close to it). This raises the question of why they are being targeted. 

I mean, come on man, you were so much better at objectively addressing points, even from people you disagreed with, and constructing sound arguments in political discussions back on DDO. What happened in the last few years?

One thing I have consistently done is attack arguments rather than people. Attacking the person is a sure sign of a weak argument, imo.

That being said, I decide what and how I address an argument as well as how much of my bandwidth should be devoted to it. I don't have a lot of bandwidth for this topic. It is a tangent from a more important discussion that I am still forming opinions on. 
#37
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@TheMorningsStar
I mean, yes. Have you watched those clips? Bugs always acts in a way that accentuates the sexual aspects of the female form when he is in drag (rather than just using female clothing as a disguise). The cartoony and comedic nature of the show helps to mitigate things, but that doesn't make drag less of a sexual thing.
The “what about *insert super innocuous but sort of similar thing here*” gotcha is a low tier gotcha but it does sometimes work because conservatives are generally either not introspective enough or are too cowardly and browbeaten to admit that they actually dislike some things. While bringing your kids to a drag show is really really weird I honestly don’t think it’s that inherently/objectively damaging. The reason I wouldn’t want my kids exposed to a drag show at a young age is because that’s not a way I want them to behave. I don’t want them associating adult behavior with things like cross dressing. I would absolutely hate it if my son did drag. That would obviously be leagues better than him going on drugs, cutting his penis off, etc to be a crude and offensive imitation of a woman but it’s still not an outcome I want. Where bugs bunny is an obvious joke, seeing an adult behave in a way and seeing your parents approve of and celebrate that behavior is very different. 

Most right wing people probably wouldn’t be willing to admit that anymore but that’s where the impulse comes from. The truth is that they don’t want people like that around their kids, period. Conservative behavior towards their children can basically be modeled as “does x increase the chances of grandchildren outside of a teen pregnancy?” If yes x is good. If no x is bad. It’s a healthy, normal outlook. Progressives happily will, and do, behave in ways that sacrifice their potential future grandchildren to appear tolerant. 
#38
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@TheMorningsStar
I honestly think the whole "non-binary" thing most helps show that the ideology relies on sexist stereotyping. Ask any non-binary person what makes them non-binary and you will always get to something built upon sexist stereotyping. Even if they say something vague like they don't "feel like a boy/girl", pressing on that reveals some sort of stereotype on what they think it means to feel like a boy/girl that they don't fit.
It is why you increasingly see stories of parents with tomboy daughters constantly having people question if their daughters are trans or not.
Yes exactly. And those stereotypes exist for a reason…most boys and girls do behave in distinguishable ways. But deviating from stereotypical behaviors doesn’t make you not a man or not a woman. To even say so is just offensive really. 

It also does seem like having some sort of a “non binary” identity is becoming trendy in some circles. It’s well documented that this trend runs like wildfire through especially teen girl friend groups. Fortunately most avoid the medicalization process but not everyone does and what happens to kids who are subjected to these experiments is a horror. The worst medical scandal this century by far 
#39
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@SkepticalOne
First, there was no link in the post I responded to.
Apparently the hyperlink broke at some point. Where, in parentheses, I quoted the name of the article (Drag pedagogy: The playful practice of queer imagination in early childhood) it was also supposed to be a link to it. Do hyperlinks not work on DART? If so, never realized that before. Will directly provide the link then,

 If our conception of groomers were informed by who is actually being charged sex crimes against children
I do not see how that follows. Grooming often doesn't result in criminal prosecution. Have you ever actually talked to or listened to/read interviews with some porn stars? Grooming can often be a slow process that doesn't result in charges being filed.

One thing I have consistently done is attack arguments rather than people. Attacking the person is a sure sign of a weak argument, imo.
This was not meant to be an attack, but a genuine curiosity as we got along quite well when I was active on DDO. Since joining DART, however, it just seems like you have grown more dogmatic when it comes to certain political issues, and I was curious about what changed. If it came off as an attempted ad hominem, then I apologize, as that was not my intention.
#40
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@thett3
 It’s well documented that this trend runs like wildfire through especially teen girl friend groups
And it has been well documented for decades that teen girls are most susceptible to social contagion.
Honestly, before the widespread social acceptance movement happened, most cases of gender dysphoria appeared in men. Afterwards, there is a drastic increase in teenage girls, and yet any attempt at suggesting that social contagion has any role is often met with criticism.
#41
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@TheMorningsStar
Afterwards, there is a drastic increase in teenage girls, and yet any attempt at suggesting that social contagion has any role is often met with criticism.
It boggles my mind that there are people who have well above average intelligence that profess the belief that actually those girls were ALWAYS boys and are just now discovering it. I guess IQ isn’t a surefire shield against wacky religious beliefs 
#42
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@TheMorningsStar
Apparently the hyperlink broke at some point. Where, in parentheses, I quoted the name of the article (Drag pedagogy: The playful practice of queer imagination in early childhood)
The article does not support the 'grooming' conclusion you're drawing. I mean, a drag performer is a co-author! 😄

 If our conception of groomers were informed by who is actually being charged sex crimes against children
I do not see how that follows.
I think it's valid those charged with sex crimes against children are very likely to be groomers. Plus, there is data to support this. 

Grooming often doesn't result in criminal prosecution.
Okay. What percentage of groomers are never charged? What percentage of those are drag queens? You're saying a particular group of individuals is guilty of priming kids for sexual contact while also admitting your have no evidence to support that. Suffice to say, I find that less than persuasive. 

Since joining DART, however, it just seems like you have grown more dogmatic when it comes to certain political issues
If you say so. I don't consider myself to be dogmatic. I'm as open to having my mind changed as I ever was. If you show me I'm wrong about something, I will change my view. 

If it came off as an attempted ad hominem, then I apologize, as that was not my intention.
Apology accepted. 
#43
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@SkepticalOne
 I mean, a drag performer is a co-author! 
Yes, I know, which is why it is telling. It was co-authored by a prominent drag performer that is behind the Drag Queen Story Hour and outlines what the goals are. When you understand how grooming works, it is clear that the goals line up well with the initial steps of grooming. Do you not think that an article that says one thing cannot also show something else unintentionally?

The article does not support the 'grooming' conclusion you're drawing.
Tell me, what do you think grooming is? It isn't some quick process where you take a child, show them porn, and go "let's do that!" It is a slow process where you guide them step by step, normalizing each step along the way, until they end up doing sexual things.
Hell, many people that were groomed into being porn stars first step in the process was ordinary modeling.
Early stages of grooming can seem very innocuous, but they serve a clear purpose in priming them for each next step.

 You're saying a particular group of individuals is guilty of priming kids for sexual contact while also admitting your have no evidence to support that
That is not what I said at all.
The article I linked clearly shows that part of the intention is grooming (though it does not use that word and the authors likely have some cognitive dissonance in that regard). Saying "they aren't being convicted" is not saying "there is no evidence", as anyone that has studied the porn industry could tell you. Looking at what is happening with child drag performers, the normalization of such things, etc. is also an important point that you have seemingly refused to address.
#44
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@TheMorningsStar
Tell me, what do you think grooming is? It isn't some quick process where you take a child, show them porn, and go "let's do that!" It is a slow process where you guide them step by step, normalizing each step along the way, until they end up doing sexual things.
Agreed, in principle, but the part you and so many others seem to be leaving out is that grooming is an exploitation of a relationship. It's personal. 

Hell, many people that were groomed into being porn stars first step in the process was ordinary modeling.
Yes, but modeling is NOT grooming. Again, grooming is an exploitation - merely working with kids is not grooming. 

The article I linked clearly shows that part of the intention is grooming (though it does not use that word and the authors likely have some cognitive dissonance in that regard).
I do not agree with your assessment of the article. You are allowing your own biases to taint your understanding of it.

Saying "they aren't being convicted" is not saying "there is no evidence
Fair enough. You are pointing to anecdotes which is certainly general evidence of how some groomers have operated in the past. What you haven't done is shown how DQSH is analogous.  From what I can see, it seems you object to the material, and that's fine, but disagreeing with what's being presented doesn't make the endeavor an exercise in sexual predation. 
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#45
RationalMadman
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@Bones
Idk if you are gay or bi but I was joking and sarcastic when you PMd me asking the obvious which was if Oromagi was who I referenced.
#46
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Some interesting data here: 


Big takeaways: 

-the number of people with a gender dysphoria diagnosis at peak ages went up about 2.5x from a little over 200 in 100k to almost 600 in 100k from 2017 to 2021

-the median age of diagnoses gets younger and younger every year, appearing to peak in the late teenage years 

-for girls, the peak of gender dysphoria diagnosis is quite clearly in the teen years 

600 in 100k vs other things people are concerned about: 


Covid-19 deaths in 2021 per 100k Americans: 114 in 100k https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7117e1.htm

Drug overdose deaths per 100k Americans in 2020: 28 per 100k https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/index.html


So a teen in 2021 was roughly 35x more likely to be *diagnosed* with gender dysphoria than any given American driver was likely to die in a car crash, about 5x more likely than any given American was to die of COVID in 2021, 21x more likely than drug overdoses, 4x more likely than someone was to die of cancer. If you know anyone in recent years who has died in a car crash, an overdose, COVID, or cancer,  the propensity for a teen to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria is higher than all of those numbers combined. If you’re the parent of a teen, it’s definitely something you’d be rational to worry about. 

Remember, the educated, progressive position that the federal government is currently strong arming people and institutions into accepting is that these young people were ALWAYS born into the wrong body and are just now discovering it. The exponential rise is NOT AT ALL a social contagion. They need their puberty stopped, they need opposite sex hormones, and they need their breasts/penises cut off. Teenagers who aren’t allowed to drink or hold full time jobs are able to make these decisions even when they have multiple mental health challenges. The parents have no right to know about any of this.  This is what the smart set believes. 
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#47
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@thett3
As an intelligent progressive, I like that you used the term 'educated' but didn't like that you altered it to 'smart' in your ending statement. Academia isn't just brainwashing but people in white collar jobs are scared shitless to think or say otherwise, due to cancelling.
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#48
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@thett3
Yes exactly. And those stereotypes exist for a reason…most boys and girls do behave in distinguishable ways. But deviating from stereotypical behaviors doesn’t make you not a man or not a woman. To even say so is just offensive really. 
100%

It is bigotry at the core of the trans agenda.

Trans agenda is actually completely inverted to the Queer agenda and you have just written out why. This is something I noticed years back but only began saying recently as it only became relevant recently.
#49
ADreamOfLiberty
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[RationalMadman] As an intelligent progressive
..... lol

#50
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@RationalMadman
As an intelligent progressive, I like that you used the term 'educated' but didn't like that you altered it to 'smart' in your ending statement. Academia isn't just brainwashing but people in white collar jobs are scared shitless to think or say otherwise, due to cancelling.
The evidence is pretty clear that in the US white progressives have a single digit IQ advantage over white conservatives, but they’re using that IQ to justify child sex changes and worship inner city criminals. Like I said in another post, nothing really insulates people from having insane religious beliefs. “Smart set” is a term I’ve heard before that references people who are media savvy, and hold elite opinions etc 
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#51
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@ADreamOfLiberty
'Lol' is not an argument.
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#52
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@thett3
I am pretty sure that highly intelligent people with good critical thinking skills are the most immune to religious doctrine based on only blind faith as opposed to logical deduction.. However, if it is not irrational and is only insane, then I guess you are right.
#53
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This toothless wonder is off his rocker!!!!! Ogre vibes!!!! 
#54
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'Lol' is not an argument.
That's true. What goes around comes around.
#55
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@RationalMadman
You are such a weird person. 
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#56
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@Bones
Thank you
#57
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@RationalMadman
"I also notice that almost all transgender people who do not detransition all have other significant mental disorders or emotional damage whereas most sissy/femboy men or severely butch tomboys etc are generally very mentally stable and own their identity even sometimes admitting they get off on being misgendered for roleplay as they feel so extremely femme or masc but knowing their sex and thus gender can not truly change, only their expression of it."

I guess your not wrong..


#58
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Got to fill the time of day doing something.