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@swordburial17
Ah, an option 3) appeared.
"3) They heard about it, but they suspect the accuracy of the hadith regarding Aisha's age, so not a problem"
Non-fallacious defenses of Muhammad?
Posts
Total:
59
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@Yassine
There is a Haram Munafiq telling that the Hadiths are unreliable. Please remind this fake Muslim that real Muslims must adhere to fully believing the Hadiths! ;)
Let me explain you the history of hadiths.
I will address the problem first.Prophet (SAW) during those days was like one in all leader of Arab. Apart from passing down the Qur'an he managed all the political and social needs to the best of his capabilities. He had thousands of followers. The problem started when his followers started to write down what Prophet said. And when he came to know that people are writing down what he was saying he said them not to.
It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that.” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)
You see... They wrote it down too.(* First mistake)
Hadiths are generally what Prophet spoke and lived in his lifetime but there are hadiths written like many years prior to the death of prophet. And there source is literally trust me bro. They start like- " I am the grandson of A who was a friend of B who was the follower of a man who followed beloved prophet."( Just an example ).
You see the problem here.
Now there were many groups and people who wanted to pollute the Islamic teachings. What they did is they wrote falsehood under the name of Hadiths and distributed it.
But they were handful.
The biggest hit came from the very own Islamic rulers. They made their Maulanas to write false hadiths and incite the common public's religious jingoism to send them in wars. This happened in 10-11th century and that is the time you see the invaded India. There was the first mention of 72 hoors 300 years prior to Revelation. And there were many more. You see these Ex- muslims who ' expose' Islam talk only about these false hadiths.
Now the question remains why people are not ready to change it. Well there was any attempt to do so. There was a scholar named Bukhari who separated good Hadiths from bad hadiths but there is a catch here. He was still a human and he lived in the medival times. He had his biases clear. He gave these hadiths authenticity stamps according to his own understanding ( or maybe some of his scholars for there time). Like banning music and all. These are pure bullshit. How can you attached attribute to something lifeless?
But why do people today are not ready to change it. Because The Quran explicitly tells us that hadith & sunnah which are Prophetic actions and words are extremely important to follow and hold on to as the entire practice of the Quran and how to live by it is in the life of the Prophet (sallAllahua alaihi wassallam). Since Allah (swt) ensures us in ‘Al Quran 15:09’ that He has protected the book from all corruption till the day of judgment therefore His above commandment to all believers to follow the Prophetic teachings and actions also hold exact same surety of protection.
( I copied an argument I saw a while back).
Because hadiths still contain a large part of Muslim culture. Not everything written their is wrong but some parts are acting like tumour for the whole religion.
The book free from corruption was only Quran Sharif not anything else. But people here think hadiths are also irrefutable.
Allah promised us to safeguard revelation but not man- made historical records( Yes that is what hadith is!)
People do not try to change it because it has been like 800 years and people have associated themselves from the sects which were forbidden in Islam. Because they are validated by many other scholars whom those Muslims place trust in. There are groups of scholars who have been validating these Hadith collections whenever they were collated. That’s why whole sects have developed which affirm to certain collections of Hadith.
Hadiths are important for Muslims. They contain the prescribed lifestyle for Muslims however it is still a man made product. Denying it's incorrectness is where the problem lies.
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@RationalMadman
I believe in One God. I believe in angels. I believe in prophets. I believe in Quran. I believe in the Judgement day. I believe in life after duniyah. I never denied the importance of Hadiths but people elevate hadiths to the level where it is irrefutable. They need it understand that it can be change with time. Like banning Music! How come something like that a discipline associated with negetive elements. People in Afghanistan are putting burqas on mannequin ( yes check that out) quoting weak hadiths. This is want I am against of. Hope you get what I am saying.
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@Savant
You believe a psychologically ill abused girl can lead a whole country for 60 years or some. I generally refrain from answer this particular question about Mother Aisha. Because it is a waste of time. People call our Prophet a war mongerer but do not know his tragedy of life. He grew up without a father. He lost his mother early. Lost his grandfather. Lived with his uncle. Lost his first wife very soon. His days before prophethood were normal. But after he was 40 his hardships increased. During the 13 years in Mecca he wa ridiculed, threatened, and abused but he still kept his patience. He is the perfect example of how a Muslim should be. Even if you go now there are remains of his home well preserved. That will show how he lived.
With this much contribution of his I feel terrible when I answer such questions. You have asked it in a good way ( and I am happy for that not many do) that is why I chose to answer or else why should I waste my breathe on someone who's sole aim is to demean my religion. You might not believe me but if you really want to know how his life was go do some research and to be honest I wish no one should face a life that hard.
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@swordburial17
I am being sarcastic. Yassine tried to correct me many months ago when I said only the Qur'an and Allah infallible to Muslims, not necessarily Muhammad and the Hadiths.
He said this is Haram and completely abhorrent to purport.
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@swordburial17
I see the Hadiths as very important, without the Hadiths, the insanity of Islam seems only a quarter as bad as it really was (or is in its purest form). Muhammad and Khalid were a pair of gangsters, they brutalised and bullied the world into their religion.
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@RationalMadman
How come Prophet Muhammad was a gangster?
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@RationalMadman
You know the problem with muslims is the moment they get a question out of their syllabus they declared it as sunnah or else haram. The just leave it be without an explanation. Why not accept that you do not know the answer and promise to comeback with valid answer with authentic sources. Seems hardwork for them.
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@Barney
@Path2Paradise
@swordburial17
.
swordburial17, who is as "Islam Stupid®️" as tigerlord and Path2Paradise,
Listen up camel herder Muslim fool swordburial17, all you did in your embarrassing post #28 relative to Aisha is to “try” and promote LIES AND HEARSAY without any citations whatsoever, get it “Camel Jockey” dumb ass Muslim? Huh?
Whereas IN FACT, the sweaty camel rider diaper-headed Muhammed married an innocent little girl named Aisha when she was only six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old, therefore your false illiterate prophet Muhammad was FUCKING A 9 YEAR OLD INNOCENT LITTLE GIRL irrelative to having any babies, where she had to be at least 12 to 14 years old, and the ramifications of this age in having babies in the first place! Do you understand this history of your abhorred stinking faith of Islam? Yes?
Furthermore, do you want to go on record that these direct ISLAM references to Aisha being SIX YEARS OLD when your sweaty camel assed Muhammed married her are wrong?!
1. Aisha, daughter of Abu-Bakr was a beautiful little girl. Muhammad married her when he was fifty three years old AND SHE WAS ONLY SIX YEARS OLD! (Wives of the Prophet, pages 57-61).
2. Narrated by Aisha: “that the Prophet married her WHEN SHE WAS SIX YEARS OLD and he consummated his marriage WHEN SHE WAS NINE YEARS OLD, and then she remained with him for nine years till his death. (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:)
3. “The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six years old. ….. Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).
Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of
age.” (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:)
When your “Ahab the Arab” illiterate diaper headed false prophet Muhammed, that couldn't even read or write or understand the Arabic language, “consummated” the marriage with Aisah at ONLY NINE YEARS OLD, then he was FUCKING HER TINY LITTLE VAGINA, ANUS AND MOUTH! Can you see in your minds eye THE 53 YEAR OLD Muhammed getting on top of a little 9 YEAR OLD GIRL CHILD TO FUCK HER in the name of the despicable faith of Islam?! Sure you can, Muslim fool!
The above FACTS WITH CITATIONS is a gross case of child abuse by the false and desert sweaty prophet of Islam Muhammed, therefore, when said prophet married Aisha when she was ONLY SIX YEARS OLD AND BEGAN FUCKING HER AT ONLY NINE YEARS OLD, then Muhammed set an example for other “Carpet Kisser” Muslim men to this day to marry innocent 9 YEAR OLD GIRLS as sickeningly shown in the image/links below!
ANY CLOSET PEDOPHILES, YOU CAN JOIN THE DESPICABLE FAITH OF ISLAM TO BE ABLE TO FUCK LITTLE INNOCENT GIRLS 9 YEARS OF AGE!
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@swordburial17
It sounds like a lot of cherry-picking by all sides in Islam.
Maybe the prophet was right that people should have just used the Quran, and not recorded things about him (ironic that those records include him telling them not to make such records).
He is the perfect example of how a Muslim should be.
Related to this, do you subscribe to virtue ethics? Do must other Muslims?
In this case virtue ethics refers to pre-decided positive or negative judgements, like anything he did must have been good because he did it.
As a thought experiment:
If you found real proof that the prophet sexed someone much younger than 20, would you then deny his perfection?
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@Barney
@swordburial17
.
Barney,
Seriously, as a part time moderator, do the moderators have a sign out somewhere within DEBATEART that this Religion Forum is looking for "Carpet Kisser" stinking desert sweaty camel-assed Muslims to join this esteemed forum to easily be made the outright fools that they are in swallowing the most abhorred religion known to man being the ungodly faith of Islam?!
We got rid of the "whiny- cry-baby" tigerlord, aka, "Paper Tiger," that could no more defend Islam than Path2Paradise can, to have another "Ahab the Arab" camel herder named "swordburiel17" to conveniently take his place? WTF!
Q: Do you know what the secret of an islamic marriage is?
A: The Muslim man get's to be a PEDOPHILE in being able to marry an innocent 9 YEAR OLD GIRL TO FUCK!
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@Barney
He is not perfect being.
He is a perfect example. Most ideal for that matter. No I don't think anything what he did should be replicated. The intent behind his actions are to be understood before judging him.
And yes most muslim will say yes on a whim of you ask them so don't bother.
Answer to your thought experiment
If I find him to be a lecher I will surely condemn him. However I doubt it. It is like declaring Jesus as a fraud. This whole pedo thing was never questioned before 20th century. Even his enemies who attempted to assassinate him and spread rumours about him never thought of it. Surely people then never found it disturbing. It is only after 20th century people started questioning him.
Ahh you should also know this.
Back in those days boys and girls are betrothed at the time of their birth. They used to marry at (15-17) and live with husband's family. But before that the girl used to spend some time with the husband's family so that she feels welcomed when she goes there.
Seriously you guys don't have anything else to discuss. I see a cycle here where some people just enjoy shitting on people grow up. There are many things to do. Don't make hating your sole reason to exist.
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@swordburial17
.
swordburial17,
YOUR EVER SO REVEALING POST #44: "Seriously you guys don't have anything else to discuss. I see a cycle here where some people just enjoy shitting on people grow up. There are many things to do. Don't make hating your sole reason to exist."
Your circular reasoning is all for naught and laughable! The "Cycle" is the sickening FACTS about your abhorred faith of Islam, get it? Therefore, in part, your Islam faith that was created through delusions in a cave near Medina by an illiterate sweaty camel assed false prophet named Muhammed, where in part, married a SIX YEAR OLD GIRL CHILD named Aisha, and then when said marriage was "consummated" when she was ONLY NINE YEARS OLD, he then was able to FUCK AISHA'S LITTLE VAGINA, ANUS AND MOUTH AS A 53 YEAR OLD MAN!
Since you are RUNNING AWAY from my post #40 in front of the membership, then when are YOU going to grow up to address said post? Are you too embarrassed to discuss the FACTS shown within my post 40?! TO SCARED to even at least "try" to discuss said facts, other than to RUN AWAY from them and go into hiding? LOL!
Heads up, we're going to have a lot of fun with YOU like we did with the other disgusting camel herder Muslim tigerlord, where you will now take his place, so "chain up" because your ride in this forum is going to be real bumpy at your expense!
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I don't know why 'this post, #45 is the one I finally went through with reporting,
I don't tend to read BrotherD.Thomas's posts,
And view it more the responsibility of those he interacts with, to report him or not.
But, I find myself bothered, annoyed,
Whether this one is 'worse than usual,
A straw,
Or seeing an honest person, genuinely reaching out with good intentions, be so maligned. . .
Then again, there have been other good people,
And one can't 'truly tell who people are online, 'just from their posts,
But the posts I found good, 'seemed telling of a good person, good intentions.
, ,
Anyway, reported.
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@Lemming
mods only will ban that absolute toxic piece of work if his victims report. I have given up trying as I am banned from reporting the normal way and don't want to pm them with every link to his posts.
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@swordburial17
Do you deny that Muhammad and his men were violent thugs and that Islam was founded on merciless warfare upholding Islamic values?
Please read those 2 sources fully, they say better than me the things. I can get into it if I need to but I tell you this, I never fully read the Hadiths, it made me sick and angry to read how nasty and manipulative Muhammad was.
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@RationalMadman
If that's the way the mods choose, then so be it,
If only because I reported what I've 'wanted to say many times before,
And your post as a reminder to people who interact with him, of their ability to report.
I suppose it's possible for reports to be overused by users,
Used in times not appropriate,
But I don't know if they are on DART.
Might be reports are a heavy workload,
Or 'could be if people used them too easy.
. . .
Though I think your posts could be a 'bit more diplomatic as well.
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@swordburial17
This whole pedo thing was never questioned before 20th century. Even his enemies who attempted to assassinate him and spread rumours about him never thought of it. Surely people then never found it disturbing. It is only after 20th century people started questioning him.
Key problem here, that self refutes your earlier points about false accounts written by his enemies. If Islam was a-okay with pedophila until modern times, then it was in no way libel against him to claim he partook.
That said, earlier you pointed out an interesting issue:
The biggest hit came from the very own Islamic rulers. They made their Maulanas to write false hadiths and incite the common public's religious jingoism to send them in wars.
So assuming the prophet was not a pedo, it could have been pedo Islamic rulers forging (or editing) hadiths in support of their vices. This does lead to a big problem that it would seem hadiths should not be part of the faith due to what the leaders of the faith have done to ruin them.
From an early post:
hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child.
You do get why this is problematic? You are cherry picking to support your bias, rejecting any evidence about his life which does not fit with your opinion of what he should have been, regardless of what he might actually have been. This is the other pitfall of virtue ethics. Still, not a bad one, as you're guided by morals instead of religious zeal.
If I find him to be a lecher I will surely condemn him. However I doubt it. It is like declaring Jesus as a fraud.
Neat coincidence, that's much of why Jesus was put to death. ... But I do get your point, many Christians would be enraged by that notion, without pausing for rational thought.
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@Barney
Debate from "Modern debate" that deals with the topic of defense of Muhammad and minor marriages in general.
I know its 2 hours long, but watching the first 40 minutes is enough to understand Daniel's point of view.
Daniel is a muslim debater who often crushes his opponents badly.
I will agree with Barney and the now temporarily banned Bro D on this. There is no upstanding society that will think a 9 year old is old enough to become a wife. The idea is deplorable. There are only 2 reasons that Aisha would have been married, for in-laws inheritance OR for the sick enjoyment of pedophilia. A 9 year old is not mature enough to run a house, to support a husband or, much more, to help a movement from it's inception. Her mind is too small at that point, regardless if she looked like a woman. She can only do manual labor and I'm pretty sure that Muhammed made sure he got his labor needs borne from her.
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@Best.Korea
The first few seconds of that told me enough about his point of view… evil liberal conspiracy against innocent pedophiles… how dare the western world value women as people. 🤮
Note:
He’s not all wrong. As we know from Afghanistan, the western values are very damaging to Muslim girls, as it encourages them to read, which in turn gets them shot by Muslim men.
Note2:
I’m against any theocracy.
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@swordburial17
Related to: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9532-non-fallacious-defenses-of-muhammad?page=2&post_number=51
What’s your opinion of other Muslims arguing that instead of Hadiths being wrong, that Muhammad being a pedophile was a virtuous thing about him?
Also which belief do you suspect is more common among Muslims?
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@DavidAZ
Her mind is too small at that point, regardless if she looked like a woman.
But what if she ate cucumbers and dates? Then it’s ok right?
/satire, also an actual argument I recently heard from a Muslim.
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@Barney
I read the same argument and it's foolish. It's like the urban legend of eating chicken will make your dong grow bigger.
I did not know this about the Muslim religion and it's absolutely creepy. Did you read where the prophet would fondle Aisha during her period?! WTH?!
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@Barney
Anyway, we can clearly see that some muslims are publicly arguing for child marriages and doing long debates about it.
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@Best.Korea
I have my tin-foil hat on:
With the push of the Islamic attraction of child marriage and the western push for sexual inclusion, do you think that they could merge or find common ground with this?
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@DavidAZ
My prediction is that in about 20 years child marriages will be legal, or sexual activities with children will be decriminalized in USA.
That will happen with or without muslims, but muslims are also included in pushing to make it happen.