Unwed mothers

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#151
secularmerlin
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@prefix
Any industry needs capital
No it dies not. It needs resources. You share conflating two separate ideas.
Ok why is it a problem if a woman's a child and also is not married?
We have already addressed this issue.
Post number please.
The discussion would seem to revolve around if it IS preventable and if it is WORTH the cost for that prevention. 
Now you're getting close.
The it here for me at least is children starving. It is either worth keeping children from starving or not. I think it is pretty worthwhile personally. 
#152
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@Vegasgiants
It's not preventable
Perhaps not eliminated completely but that is no reason to let more children starve than we have to. 
#153
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@Vegasgiants
It's not preventable
Perhaps not eliminated completely but that is no reason to let more children starve than we have to. 
#154
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@Athias
Before we her too much further I just wanted to clear something up that is as yet unclear in our discussion. 

When you say all coercion is wrong do you also mean that if one person gets another person pregnant that they should not be coerced or forced into providing for that child financially?

Like do you mean that while people ought to care for their children they cannot be made to or are you also in favor of slne coercion sone of the time?

Sorry to change the subject and we can get back to the rest of that possibly if we decide to. 
#155
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@secularmerlin
When you say all coercion is wrong do you also mean that if one person gets another person pregnant that they should not be coerced or forced into providing for that child financially?
In this context, yes.

Like do you mean that while people ought to care for their children they [ought not be forced] to
Yes.

or are you also in favor of [some] coercion [some] of the time?
No.

Sorry to change the subject and we can get back to the rest of that possibly if we decide to. 
No worries.

#156
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@Athias
So really no one ought take care of children unless they feel like it. That is consistent anyway. Agree to disagree but I do understand your stance.
#157
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@secularmerlin
So really no one ought take care of children unless they feel like it.
That is not what I stated.

That is consistent anyway.
As much as I prize my capacity for consistency, the compliment is misdirected.

but I do understand your stance.
No you do not. I believe parents should take care of their children. I just won't threaten them with financial penalty and the threat of bodily harm to see that happen. The labor, resources, and time a parent provides are GIFTS not DEBTS. Until you understand that, you will not understand my stance.
#158
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@Athias
I just won't threaten them with financial penalty and the threat of bodily harm to see that happen.
So they ought to take care of their children but if they don't and niether will anyone else what then ought to happen?

IF no one decides to give children the GIFT of adequate food and shelter THEN ???

(Kindly if you have the time and inclination fill in the ???)
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#159
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@Vegasgiants
How about we debate the issue of when the heart is formed. ( this is from another forum ) 

I would say at 6 weeks

Will you accept?


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#160
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@secularmerlin
Any industry needs capital
No it dies not. It needs resources. You share conflating two separate ideas.

YOU are the one "conflating"

"Is industrialization prevented by lack of capital? Many people in the Venture Capital business would argue yes. Richard Florida and Donald F Smith Jr. both argue that in order for a country to make the jump there must be enough initial capital to make the jump to (as Vollrath would say) “[producing] new things that are more valuable than the old things produced.” This is the problem for many countries today that are looking to make the jump into the modern age"https://historyatnormandale.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/is-industrialization-prevented-by-lack-of-capital/

Ok why is it a problem if a woman's a child and also is not married?
We have already addressed this issue.
Post number please.
Numbers 1 to 150.

The it here for me at least is children starving. It is either worth keeping children from starving or not. I think it is pretty worthwhile personally. 
I NEVER said "let children starve" I merely proposed a hierarchy of responsibility. Even you would have to agree that if we reduce the number of children whose sole source for survival is the public dole, we could take better care of the fewer children, as opposed to your position of creating starvation through bankruptcy.

You are the one who is promoting starvation!!!

I am promoting a society of plenty.

Which is better?





#161
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Any industry needs capital
No it dies not. It needs resources. You share conflating two separate ideas.

YOU are the one "conflating"
Imagine that currency had never been invented. Would engines cease to function? No they would not. Now let's say you have money but no gasoline. Will your engine cease to function? You betcha. Know ehy? Because capital is not the resource it is only a stand in. Resources could still be utilized without this stand in.
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#162
prefix
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@Vegasgiants
OK I guess you don't want me to debate with you here on this issue

Thought I would give it a chance


Buh bye
The debate has been posted. Accept it if you dare.
#163
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@secularmerlin
So they ought to take care of their children but if they don't and niether will anyone else what then ought to happen?
Then, it's not a matter of that which "ought" to happen, but a matter of that which "will" happen--i.e. the children being left to their own devices to fend for themselves.

IF no one decides to give children the GIFT of adequate food and shelter THEN ???

(Kindly if you have the time and inclination fill in the ???)
Already did.




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#164
prefix
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@secularmerlin
Imagine that currency had never been invented. Would engines cease to function? No they would not. Now let's say you have money but no gasoline. Will your engine cease to function? You betcha. Know ehy? Because capital is not the resource it is only a stand in. Resources could still be utilized without this stand in.
You have a very basic misunderstanding of the relationship of capital to industry.

Imagine that currency had never been invented. Would engines cease to function? No they would not.
They would not exist in the first place without massive amounts of capital.

Now let's say you have money but no gasoline. Will your engine cease to function? You betcha.
The non existent engine would not have refineries to supply gasoline without massive amounts of capital.

Your reasoning starts with the present condition where engines exist and gasoline is available.  

How much capital did Ford need?

Here is what Ford says .."With 12 investors and 1,000 shares, the company had spent almost all of its $28,000 cash investment by the time it sold the first Ford Model A on July 23, 1903."https://corporate.ford.com/about/history/company-timeline.html#:~:text=The%20Ford%20Motor%20Company%20is,A%20on%20July%2023%2C%201903.

How much money did Standard Oil need?

"How did the Standard Oil Company start?


The company's origins date to 1863, when Rockefeller joined Maurice B. Clark and Samuel Andrews in a Cleveland, Ohio, oil-refining business. In 1865 Rockefeller bought out Clark, and two years later he invited Henry M. Flagler to join as a partner in the venture."https://www.britannica.com/topic/Standard-Oil

In all free market cases capital proceeds industry, except in slave labor centralized tyrannical States.

Which do you prefer?

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#165
prefix
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@Vegasgiants
Funny message from DebateArt.....

"The debate «Science states that there exists a heart at 6 weeks gestation.» has been automatically deleted due to lack of honor on the part of Vegasgiants"
#166
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@prefix
It's fun to make stuff up
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#167
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@Vegasgiants
It's fun to make stuff up
The trick is knowing what is make believe and what isn't.
#168
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@prefix
Yep