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secularmerlin
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@prefix
By your question it is obvious that you have read neither the totality of my posts nor have you read the links I have sent.
Actually I was just hoping nit to straw man your position but since you refuse to elucidate further I will try to offer my best understanding of your argument. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main argument here is "no person(s) or organization(s) should put an undue burden upon the average tax payer".
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@secularmerlin
Correct me if I'm wrong but your main argument here is "no person(s) or organization(s) should put an undue burden upon the average tax payer".
Well Mr. Straw Man you are wrong. 

By your statement it is obvious that you have read neither the totality of my posts nor have you read the links I have sent.

You have been corrected.
secularmerlin
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@prefix
Ok well if you decide you want to tell me your actual point feel free otherwise good luck with..  whatever it is you actually want.
Athias
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@secularmerlin
So children should not be allowed to starve unless no one feels like feeding them in which case they should in fact starve?
Is that what I said, or are you attempting to pigeonhole my response to that of non-coerced participation being tacit promotion of starvation? As I've said, no one should starve. I'm just not willing to cosign any coercive measures which would service that end.
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@Athias
Whatever you say, secularmerlin will hear something else entirely.

It gets tiresome very fast.


secularmerlin
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@Athias
I'm just not willing to cosign any coercive measures which would service that end.

So at the end of the day no one should have to starve unless no one cares to feed them in which case they should starve. 

Or is there a secret third option I'm missing?
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@secularmerlin
You're missing a third option all right!!!!!
Athias
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@prefix
Whatever you say, secularmerlin will hear something else entirely.

It gets tiresome very fast.
I'm familiar with secularmerlin's tact. But like everyone, I initially offer the courtesy of having the benefit of my doubt.

Athias
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@secularmerlin
So at the end of the day no one should have to starve unless no one cares to feed them in which case they should starve. 

Or is there a secret third option I'm missing?
Since you're relentless in your non sequitur, I'm simply going to quote myself:

Athias Post #124
As I've said, no one should starve. I'm just not willing to cosign any coercive measures which would service that end.
At least take responsibility for what you're suggesting--"I can't deal with children starving so I'm willing to cosign any measure that would coerce individuals, whether they be parents, public officials, or taxpayers to fund or provide any necessary provision I believe necessary in response to child starvation."
secularmerlin
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@prefix
You're missing a third option all right!!!!!
I am prepared to listen to this third option so long as you give it in plain direct language. 
secularmerlin
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@Athias
At least take responsibility for what you're suggesting--"I can't deal with children starving so I'm willing to cosign any measure that would coerce individuals, whether they be parents, public officials, or taxpayers to fund or provide any necessary provision I believe necessary in response to child starvation."
Are you categorizing the collection of taxes coercion? 
prefix
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@secularmerlin
I am prepared to listen to this third option so long as you give it in plain direct language. 

Are you prepared to accept that if I say "A" , I have said "A" even if you hear B..C..D..E..F therfore G even where G is not equal to A?

Or am I simply defending reality against some ghostly presence?
secularmerlin
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@prefix
This started as a question I thought. 

I thought the question was "if the father cannot be found then who pays?" I thought that was A.

I did my best to answer that question only to be told that you don't feel I'm engaging your point. Everything after was just me trying to determine what the actual question is.

If the question is "wouldn't it be better is all children had responsible parents?" Then the answer is yes that would be better obviously.

It does leave us with the problem still however that this is not actually the case.
Athias
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@secularmerlin
Are you categorizing the collection of taxes coercion? 
Given that one cannot refuse the collection of taxes without penalty and the implicit threat of bodily harm, yes, the collection of taxes is very much a coercive measure.

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@secularmerlin

Here are two incompatible quotes from YOU



To clarify when you say "who pays?" Do you actually mean "who ought to pay?"? 
You then went on to answer what you thought was the question  ( i.e. now you think A is B ) and later you said 

I thought the question was "if the father cannot be found then who pays?" I thought that was A.
Now you think B is A .

Well here is a C for you

In 1985 18% of births were to unwed mothers
In 2020 40% of births were to unwed mothers

do you see the problem ( A ).
secularmerlin
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@Athias
Then it is possible that I prefer some forms of coercion to wide spread poverty.

It is also possible I would prefer a commonwealth approach where the funds generated by capitalism equally benefit everyone rather than only the ultra wealthy.

Perhaps then we wouldn't even need to collect taxes.
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@prefix
Mother's being unwed is not a problem per se is it? It is children who are not being financially supported that is the problem right? 
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@secularmerlin
Mother's being unwed is not a problem per se is it?
Within this thread ...Yes it is ....A = A

 It is children who are not being financially supported that is the problem right? 
Within this thread ...Yes it is ....A = A
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@secularmerlin
It is also possible I would prefer a commonwealth approach where the funds generated by capitalism equally benefit everyone rather than only the ultra wealthy.
"the funds generated by capitalism equally benefit everyone rather than only the ultra wealthy."

What planet are you from?

I would give you a link disproving your belief, but based on what I have seen, you wouldn't read it anyway.

BTW read "Don’t Tell Bernie Sanders, but Capitalism Has Made Human Life Fantastically Better." ( no link provided for you ).
secularmerlin
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@prefix
Mother's being unwed is not a problem per se is it?
Within this thread ...Yes it is ....A = A
Ok why is it a problem if a woman's a child and also is not married?
"the funds generated by capitalism equally benefit everyone rather than only the ultra wealthy."

What planet are you from?
This one 
Capitalism Has Made Human Life Fantastically Better."
Incorrect. Industrialization has done that. Capitalism is not necessary for Industrialization.
Vegasgiants
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@secularmerlin
Maybe he thinks we should let hungry kids starve
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@Vegasgiants
Maybe he thinks we should let hungry kids starve
I don't think anyone actually wants this. The discussion would seem to revolve around if it IS preventable and if it is WORTH the cost for that prevention. 
prefix
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@secularmerlin
So many things you need to learn.....

Ok why is it a problem if a woman's a child and also is not married?
We have already addressed this issue.

. Capitalism is not necessary for Industrialization.
Any industry needs capital. It can come from  individuals as it did in the 18th century, or it can come from centralized government ( but only 2 centuries later ).
So capitalism was heading for third base when governments were  just  sitting in the dugout.

The discussion would seem to revolve around if it IS preventable and if it is WORTH the cost for that prevention. 
Now you're getting close.
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@Vegasgiants
Maybe you need to read the previous comments.
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@secularmerlin
It's not preventable 
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@Vegasgiants
It's not preventable 
It only needs to be controllable. It needs to be controlled better than it is now.

A 225% increase in 35 years is a problem that is only getting worse.

BTW I am STILL waiting for you to list a dozen sources in another forum  where you gave a non scientific view.
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@prefix
OK I guess you don't want me to debate with you here on this issue

Thought I would give it a chance


Buh bye
Athias
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@secularmerlin
Then it is possible that I prefer some forms of coercion to wide spread poverty.
You need not modify or qualify your preference for coercion, because ultimately--from what I can presume from your statements--you are not against it. Your arbitrarily selecting which circumstances you proffer as "legitimate" provides absolutely no mitigation. Case in point: I can rob a wealthy woman for her pearl necklace, hock it, and use the money to feed my starving children. That would not provide indemnification for my immoral act.

It is also possible I would prefer a commonwealth approach where the funds generated by capitalism equally benefit everyone rather than only the ultra wealthy.
Don't you mean a communist approach where commerce generated by highly productive individuals is forcibly rationed by an hegemonic collective?

Perhaps then we wouldn't even need to collect taxes.
"Need"? One does not need to "rob."

prefix
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@Vegasgiants
I have offered to debate you in the DEBATE area. This is the FORUM area,

BTW I am STILL waiting for you to list a dozen sources in another forum  where you gave a non scientific view.

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@prefix
OK hang on