i'm sympathetic to the idea that trump was president, so he can declassify whatever he wants as he wishes. even on the stuff that it didn't matter if it was classified that he wasn't suppose to have, he was still the president. that's why i'm more on the side that it was a witch hunt on the meatier charges. but obstruction of justice is different... trump had very critical docs it sounds like, and when the government tried to get them back and fix the situation, trump evaded them and tried to hide and obscure things. for that, even if we concluded that trump didnt commit a crime,it still should have been a crime that deserved punishment. this is existential and critical information we're dealing with and trump acted irresponsibly. i think the only way a person could think he didn't do anything wrong, at least ethically, is if they are clouded with bias and can't see clearly.
regardless of whether trump is found guilty, he unethically obstructed the government
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@Greyparrot
even if trump didn't commit a crime, are you capable of at least acknowledging that trump acted irresponsibly and unethically? i would guess that you would rather let your emotions dictate your views and want to rush to trump's defense, end of story. and of course as always add something that doesn't have anything to do with the issue.
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@n8nrgim
I'm just saying, you didn't coin the word Trumpanzee on your own. It was perpetuated. That hatred is the dark energy that fuels Maga.
You can refuse to play the Maga game and not create more Maga. That is a choice you can make. Nobody is forcing you to make Trump great again by making him a political martyr worthy of all your hatred.
You can choose to put the chaotic hate card back in the deck, and play an orderly card full of progress and vision. That's a choice you can make to end Maga for good.
All US presidents commit crimes.
For example, Bush killed a million people.
If we are after presidents who commit crimes, why are we starting with Trump and ending with Trump alone?
Presidents are supposed to have immunity like they always had before Trump and after Trump.
Why are we pretending that its not the only point of these trials to prevent Trump from being president?
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@n8nrgim
The only reason Trump took the material was that he thought he could make money off of it.
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@FLRW
It's more likely he will use it all as an October surprise against Biden.
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@Best.Korea
are you at least capable of acknowledging that trump acted unethically and irresponsibly?
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@n8nrgim
But obstruction of justice is different...
It is different mostly because it's such an arbitrary subjective crime ranking up there with contempt of court. (which Trump was exonerated of during one of his political impeachments) all of which hinges on the subjective claim of intent.
A good analogy is a hateful and emotional cop deciding you are drunk just because he doesn't like the way you react to his questions, or says you are resisting arrest just because you didn't comply fast enough. The cop is assuming your intent in both situations, but what's worse is he is assuming intent through a biased and emotional lens..
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@Greyparrot
this is my favorite definition of the term 'trumpanzee'
An irrational creature prone to wild overreaction, rattling its cage at the slightest provocation and indiscriminately flinging its feces around until everything is covered in excrement.(That is the original definition from the person who coined the term)"The devout Trumpanzee is immune to fact or evidence caring only for the unintelligible howls of the tribe's Alpha male"
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@n8nrgim
Favorite? So deep down you enjoy what Maga is doing to the country. You believe the entertainment value far outweighs any possible damage Maga can and will do to America.
I guess that's 1st world entertainment for you.
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@n8nrgim
are you at least capable of acknowledging that trump acted unethically and irresponsibly?
I literally did acknowledge that.
"All US presidents commit crimes."
"All US presidents" includes Trump.
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@Greyparrot
i wouldn't vote for the guy, but even i can relate to the MAGA, and have a little maga in me too. if i say 'fuck it let's watch the world burn', it's only cause i'm partly MAGA myself. except, i recognize it's not a virtue and can still think objectively... the virus hasn't completely destroyed my brain.
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@FLRW
is there evidence trump was trying to make money off it? i read an article that said he was trying to have source documents so he can prove he's right when arguing with people... it was ego related. i guess i do suppose that that's a little weak for a reason for why he'd take all the documents though.
i really dont know what he was trying to accomplish in taking all those docs.
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@n8nrgim
I'm just hoping people realize the joy of participating in "The Trumpanzee Show" is paid with a burning country.
You can choose to be much less hateful.
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@n8nrgim
i really dont know what he was trying to accomplish in taking all those docs.
It's likely for political leverage.
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@FLRW
@n8nrgim
@Best.Korea
The only reason Trump took the material was that he thought he could make money off of it.
With fairness, FLRW, you do not know this. An assumptive, all-in, definitive statement like that is pure inflammation and not a cohesive idea, or representative of fact. So let's reign it into facts, and reasonable thoughts.
n8nrgim, You have unfairly concluded guilt. The foundation of the criminal system is about a fair trial, and the presumption of innocence, and a predetermination of guilt is not contiguous with the principals of justice..
I agree with Best.Korea, all presidents commit crimes. Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama... all war crimes. Nixon for his Watergate, Clinton for his obstruction... Then when you look at mismanaging classified information, we have Hillary, Trump, and Biden, when he was VP. We could be here all day, on both sides of the political spectrum. However the actual guilt needs to be determined through a fair process.
I am not a Trump fan. I think he is a pathological narcissist, with no moral compass, and only focused on his own wants. Regardless, I believe the DOJ's focus on Trump is disproportionate. The process also makes it nearly impossible for Trump to get a fair trial.
With respect to the documents retained by Trump, and the criticality of them, we are never going to know if there was a real national risk attached, because they are classified. This gives the Government a near unfair advantage in their prosecution efforts. We see this issue in the Guantanamo related trials.
As a society, and on this site, there is a growing polarization, assumption, and a loss at appreciating the fundamentals of a bigger picture. I hope we can fix that. Those are my thoughts.
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@n8nrgim
i think the only way a person could think he didn't do anything wrong, at least ethically, is if they are clouded with bias and can't see clearly.
Or they don't believe a word of it.
About the documents being critical or what not.
It's 2023. There are digital copies, and if there aren't digital copies it wasn't that critical was it?
It's grand standing on minutia out of desperate fear that Trump might actually reduce the level of global violence leading to an inexorable reduction of profits for the military industrial complex and insider trading.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It's 2023. There are digital copies, and if there aren't digital copies it wasn't that critical was it?
There are many documents NOT digitized or retrained in digital format for security reasons. You assumption is wrong.
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@Slainte
My "assumption" is correct, paper is not more secure to people who know what they're doing. Paper cannot reasonably be encrypted.
If whoever is claiming to need these documents doesn't know that already then that's white pill news for me. It means this government is so stupid and ignorant of IT that a dedicated group of cyber-punk libertarians might actually take it down.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Sorry, you are absolutely incorrect. I have security clearance for a government. Just ask ChatGPT "Why is top secret information not digitally stored"
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@FLRW
The only reason Trump took the material was that he thought he could make money off of it.You have absolutely zero evidence to back this big pile of shit up!!
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@ADreamOfLiberty
if you dont believe a word of it, that's just your bias. the government says it was critical and they talk about the subjects that were involved, which sound critical. i mean you might be right that it wasn't critical, but that's just you choosing to ignore what the government is signaling. your motive in ignoring it, could only be that you lack objectivity.
do you acknowledge that trump's behavior at least looks unethical?
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@n8nrgim
it was ego related.
Was it ego that caused the obstruction of justice, the lying to authorities, saying he declassified the documents by thinking about it, and trying to get his lawyers to break the law themselves by lying and destroying the documents?
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@Slainte
I have security clearance for a government.
Either you're lying about that or having security clearance is no guarantee of knowing what you're talking about. The later explanation is almost certainly true, so I'll go with that.
Just ask ChatGPT "Why is top secret information not digitally stored"
Asking ChatGPT is asking reddit. Since you have a security clearance you can explain no?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I actually invented one encryption for text that can be written on paper so that no one can know what it says unless they have the code.
The trick is to throw in a bunch of fake text and mix it with coded text. Only the one with the code can know which text is.
It goes something like:
1 means B
2 means E
3 means S
4 means T
So 1234 means BEST.
Then 1234 is mixed into fake text, such as:
"14214122312434"
In order to read this, you need to know that only fourth, seventh, ninth and twelfth numbers count as an actual code, while the rest is fake text.
It is an unbreakable encryption for written text, since no one can know which numbers count and which are fake except the one who has code for pattern.
The code for this encryption is 4, 7, 9, 12.
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@n8nrgim
if you dont believe a word of it, that's just your bias.
Typically when a bias is based on well supported patterns it's just called 'knowing what the hell is going on'.
You know, like when you hear a Hitler speech and you say "I don't know what he's saying, but he's probably trying to do something evil."
your motive in ignoring it, could only be that you lack objectivity.
"lack of objectivity", that's not a #(&$*# motive (imagine 300 sketch).
Don't confuse objectivity with the fallacy of the middle or an appeal to the status quo. Objectivity is the result of equally applied rational epistemology.
do you acknowledge that trump's behavior at least looks unethical?
I acknowledge some people believe it was unethical if that's what you mean by "looks".
I do not acknowledge that Trump did anything unethical in terms of retaining documents from his term in office. Refusing to hand them over to the archives when the archives have never demanded this of any other official (to my knowledge) is also not immoral; and that's presuming any kind of coherent demand was ever made.
I don't know if you've seen my explain my moral theory before, but it concludes liberty; not asymmetric and absolute obedience to a harassing government bureaucracy on the almost certainly fabricated premise that they don't keep copies of critical information.
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@Best.Korea
Best.Korea... any encryption scheme can be printed on paper; but no one would do that because a human being can't decrypt it in their brain.
If you need a computer to read the document what is the point in printing it out at all?
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@Slainte
I'm not a Trump fan either, but he deserves some credit for exposing a broken Democracy we all were carefully convinced was working before 2016. Now we know it's actually been broken for decades and will continue to be for decades to come.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The National Archives is pushing back on claims made by former President Donald Trump, his lawyers and his allies over his retention of classified documents, for which he now faces a federal indictment.
On Friday, the Archives took the rare step of releasing a public statement rebuking claims suggesting that Trump was allowed to keep classified materials under the Presidential Records Act.
“Recent media reports have generated a large number of queries about Presidential records and the Presidential Records Act (PRA). The PRA requires that all records created by Presidents (and Vice-Presidents) be turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) at the end of their administrations,” according to the statement released by the National Archives on Friday afternoon.
On Friday, the Archives took the rare step of releasing a public statement rebuking claims suggesting that Trump was allowed to keep classified materials under the Presidential Records Act.
“Recent media reports have generated a large number of queries about Presidential records and the Presidential Records Act (PRA). The PRA requires that all records created by Presidents (and Vice-Presidents) be turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) at the end of their administrations,” according to the statement released by the National Archives on Friday afternoon.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well, technically, you just need the text, the code and the meaning of letters. You dont need a computer. It just takes a really long time to read lol, so I assume it would be somewhat impractical but not impossible.
I dont know how the US government does it. I am just saying that text written on paper can be encrypted. It is difficult, but not impossible. Plus, gotta be careful about who knows the code for encryption and who doesnt.