Define a Woman Liberals.

I don’t worship Jesus because he was just a man who indulged in drugs. I don’t believe in God because I’m not so weak minded that I need a fairy tale to cling to.

Unfortunately for you, my definition is the status quo, appearing as the first entry from a couple reputable sources. (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8) 

Vegaagiants

Legally it means any person who identifies as a woman

Ask me nicely

Unfortunately for you, my definition is the status quo, appearing as the first entry from a couple reputable sources. (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8) 

• Words often have more than one meaning.  The most popular usage does not confer increased legitimacy.  Legitmacy is according to semantic context.  4 of your 8 sources explicitly state that a trans woman may be properly referred to as a woman.
  

Oh I see, so there are two "parts" to the definition of female, that of belonging to the sex, as identified through ova, and also this weird gender one.

So what does it mean to be a female per the gender description?   So what part of the trans female vlogger makes them female? 

• From WIktionary:   Identification as a man, a woman, or something else, and association with a (social) role or set of behavioral and cultural traits, clothing, etc; a category to which a person belongs on this basis. (Compare gender role, gender identity.) [from 20th c.] 
  

woman (plural women)

1. An adult female human. quotations ▼
   
2. (collective) All female humans collectively; womankind. quotations ▼
   
3. A female person, usually an adult; a (generally adult) female sentient being, whether human, supernatural, elf, alien, etc. quotations ▼
   
4. A wife (or sometimes a fiancée or girlfriend). quotations ▼
   
5. A female person who is extremely fond of or devoted to a specified type of thing. (Used as the last element of a compound.) quotations ▼
   
6. A female attendant or servant.
   

association with a (social) role or set of behavioral and cultural traits

So what does it mean to be a female per the gender description?   So what part of the trans female vlogger makes them female? 

• From WIktionary:   Identification as a man, a woman, or something else, and association with a (social) role or set of behavioral and cultural traits, clothing, etc; a category to which a person belongs on this basis. (Compare gender role, gender identity.) [from 20th c.] 
  

Ok three problems. First is that you completely dodged, in that I asked for a definition of female not gender, implying a confusion between your sex and gender doctrine.

I asked for the "gendered" conception of female as a trap, which you fell entirely in because gender is not applicable to female,

nor do trans advocates claim this - they claim it applies to woman. 

Second, even if you did mistake sex with gender, and instead provided me a definition of woman, my question was what part of the trans female vlogger makes them female/woman to which you gave a definition of gender, the mistake being you giving me a definition of the category and not the thing.

Third, this definition of woman (which I never asked for, I asked for one of female) is in contest with the previous one you submitted. 

So we therefore have two contradictory definitions of woman - notice also how the most common definition of woman mentions nothing about association with roles. My problem is this. We have two definitions which lie in contest. How do we decide which is better when they are in contest? For example, if someone who fulfils  the adult female human criteria, but associate with the social roles of a man, are they still a woman? What about vice versa? 

For example, if someone who fulfils  the adult female human criteria, but associate with the social roles of a man, are they still a woman? 

• Yes in the context of biology.  No in polite society.  See?  Words can have entirely different meanings, even opposite meanings, depending on context.  I am skeptical that you did not already know this.
  

• Not if you don't understand that words have more than one legitimate context, you don't.
  
• Let's agree that since between us we found 5 excellent lexicographic sources that confirm that WOMAN is an appropriate noun for transwomen and zero lexiographic sources that deny that the noun WOMAN applies to transwomen, that proper usage in the modern English language permits transwomen to be referred to as women.
  

So what does it mean to be a female per the gender description?   So what part of the trans female vlogger makes them female? 

• From WIktionary:   Identification as a man, a woman, or something else, and association with a (social) role or set of behavioral and cultural traits, clothing, etc; a category to which a person belongs on this basis. (Compare gender role, gender identity.) [from 20th c.] 
  

Ok three problems. First is that you completely dodged, in that I asked for a definition of female not gender, implying a confusion between your sex and gender doctrine.

• I'll leave the doctrine to you nosy busybodies.  I'm just advocating for the use of the most respectful, inclusive language available and trying to figure out why such respect engrages the MAGA lads.
  

• You asked "what does it mean to be a female per the gender description..  You call it a dodge but I guess you are going to have to explain how.  I gave you a definition of gender that explains that one correct meaning of being of female gender is to identify as a woman in  a socio-cultural context.  That is as direct an answer as I can fathom 
  

I asked for the "gendered" conception of female as a trap, which you fell entirely in because gender is not applicable to female,

• Let's call that a part of your religious belief since the lexicographic sources seem to agree that FEMALE  is the gender which is typically associated with  the sex which typically produces egg.  What trap? 
  

• The answer was plain:  self-identity  as female/woman is to female/woman as coffee bean is to coffee.
  

So we therefore have two contradictory definitions of woman - notice also how the most common definition of woman mentions nothing about association with roles. My problem is this. We have two definitions which lie in contest. How do we decide which is better when they are in contest? For example, if someone who fulfils  the adult female human criteria, but associate with the social roles of a man, are they still a woman? What about vice versa? 

• Again, you just don't seem to be familiar with English language dictionaries.  Many words may have entirely contradictory definitions, depending on context.
  
• To SCREEN something can mean to conceal or to show off depending on the context.
  
• To SANCTION can mean to approve or punish depending on the context.
  
• To RENT can mean to buy or to sell, depending on the context.
  
• A BILL can mean either payment or invoice, depnding on the context.
  
• An APOLOGY can mean contrition or defense, depending on the context.
  
• A WOMAN can mean "pussies only"  or "pussy irrelevant," depending on the context.
  

Let's also agree that adult human female remains the primary definition for woman.

Let's also agree that the "context" deference does nothing to bolster the coherence of your position - if two definitions stand in contest, the contradiction ought to be resolved. 

And does this progressive definition of female not undermine biology, zoology and any characterisation in which a partition between female and male exist? 

So the only criteria for being a female/woman is if you identify with being a female/woman? Surely this idiocy is not what you are suggesting. 

 You assert that a woman is both an adult human female and also a social label you identify with. These cannot be simultaneously true, for it is conceivable that, in the same context someone can be both an adult human female and also not associate with these labels.

There are many, many problems with your shallow concept of this "social roles" view. One is that not all people you would call women identify with these labels. Seems rather sexist of you to reduce women into these "social expectations".

The second is the problem of that you have actually confused feminine and woman. You define woman as someone abiding by certain social parameters, but how would you define feminine? 

 Looks like you just stole a well established concept and took it for yourself because I would suspect the definitions to be the same.

• Nope, I just read a dictionary with honest comprehension.

The third is of course that you cannot identify an individual based purely on subjective B-properties,

• I don't know what B-properties mean
  
• I have identified people as funny without much difficulty.  
  
• I don't need to identify to respect identity.  Maybe that's a burden of the heirarchical mindset.

Let's also agree that adult human female remains the primary definition for woman.

• Settle down with the heirarchies.  It about matching meaning to context, it not a supremacy of  one meaning dominating another.  Jeez.
  

Let's also agree that the "context" deference does nothing to bolster the coherence of your position - if two definitions stand in contest, the contradiction ought to be resolved. 

• Let's recall that my position is that people have a certain right to claim their identities as valid which right other people need and ought not to disrespect
  

And does this progressive definition of female not undermine biology, zoology and any characterisation in which a partition between female and male exist? 

• Does the progressive definition of rock as a musical genre undermine geology?
  

So the only criteria for being a female/woman is if you identify with being a female/woman? Surely this idiocy is not what you are suggesting. 

• It was not my suggestion.  Rather it Feminism that made this assertion.  It was also 5 out of 8...
  

 You assert that a woman is both an adult human female and also a social label you identify with. These cannot be simultaneously true, for it is conceivable that, in the same context someone can be both an adult human female and also not associate with these labels.

• Yes and sometimes you can have coffee for your coffee.  Both meanings can be simultaenously true in the same context.
  
• This claim strikes me as lunacy.
  

There are many, many problems with your shallow concept of this "social roles" view. One is that not all people you would call women identify with these labels. Seems rather sexist of you to reduce women into these "social expectations".

• Seems even more sexist of you to reduce women to their tits.  Reduction or no, the principle is Feminist in origin and long fought for as a necessary right for women.
  

The second is the problem of that you have actually confused feminine and woman. You define woman as someone abiding by certain social parameters, but how would you define feminine? 

• Same way I define most words.
  

The third is of course that you cannot identify an individual based purely on subjective B-properties,

• I don't know what B-properties mean
  
• I have identified people as funny without much difficulty. 
  

my definition is simply the one which is most commonly used in all circumstances. 

So if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female? 

my definition is simply the one which is most commonly used in all circumstances. 

• but not the only definition and this word has more than one meaning.
  

You can't "claim" you are a female any more than you can claim you are 6 foot tall. 

• That is your belief.  The facts are that in modern American society,  people sometimes claim they are female in a legal, social sense.
  

If it were the case that rock referred two antithetical ideas within a single discipline, then there would be a contradiction. 

• But our multiple meanings of woman, gender, female, etc don't apply to the same discipline.  
  

So if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female? 

• gender identity (countable and uncountable, plural gender identities)
  

1. (psychology) A person's internal sense of self as belonging to a particular gender or genders, or to no gender.
   

Not at all, I merely observe biological facts, respected by scientists, archeologists etc. You on the other hand fight against first wave feminists, cherishing archetypes not only as desirable ways to act, but as things which actually constitute what a woman is. 

• False.  Even first wave Feminists resented being reduced to biological roles.
  

But it would be wrong to describe someone as objectively funny, given the innately subjective measure of comedy. 

• Wrong?  really?  Look, we refer to comedians as funny all the time, in spite of our understanding that humor is subjective.  Even if we don't find a comedian funny, we don't take away that comedian's right to advertise as funny as refer to oneself as a funny person.  LIkewise, the subjectivity of the trans person's claim is baked in to the usage.  Even if we don't find a claim to womanhod particularly persuasive, proper social conduct is nevertheless to to respect the claim as valid.
  

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@<<<oromagi>>>

my definition is simply the one which is most commonly used in all circumstances. 

• but not the only definition and this word has more than one meaning.
  

But they can't have claims which are contradictory. You still don't understand. 

You can't "claim" you are a female any more than you can claim you are 6 foot tall. 

• That is your belief.  The facts are that in modern American society,  people sometimes claim they are female in a legal, social sense.
  

The fact that there are people in modern American society doing it doesn't make it philosophically or conceptually coherent.

What is the symetry breaker between this and identifying as 6 foot tall?  

If it were the case that rock referred two antithetical ideas within a single discipline, then there would be a contradiction. 

• But our multiple meanings of woman, gender, female, etc don't apply to the same discipline.  
  

They do they - they are directly contradictory and both refer to an individual

So if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female? 

• gender identity (countable and uncountable, plural gender identities)
  

1. (psychology) A person's internal sense of self as belonging to a particular gender or genders, or to no gender.
   

Look I know you have no intellectual originality, but citing dictionaries doesn't actually answer the question I am asking.

You referred to a female as something you can self identify as, meaning a female is someone who identifies as a female.

Even the dictionary definition you cite is actually wrong because I didn't ask for your definition of gender identity.  

Not at all, I merely observe biological facts, respected by scientists, archeologists etc. You on the other hand fight against first wave feminists, cherishing archetypes not only as desirable ways to act, but as things which actually constitute what a woman is. 

• False.  Even first wave Feminists resented being reduced to biological roles.
  

But I am not reducing them to biological roles - I am observing biological facts.

I'm sure first wave feminists wouldn't want men in their bathrooms

But it would be wrong to describe someone as objectively funny, given the innately subjective measure of comedy. 

• Wrong?  really?  Look, we refer to comedians as funny all the time, in spite of our understanding that humor is subjective.  Even if we don't find a comedian funny, we don't take away that comedian's right to advertise as funny as refer to oneself as a funny person.  LIkewise, the subjectivity of the trans person's claim is baked in to the usage.  Even if we don't find a claim to womanhod particularly persuasive, proper social conduct is nevertheless to to respect the claim as valid.
  

All agreed to

it's roots are incoherent. 

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@<<<oromagi>>>

my definition is simply the one which is most commonly used in all circumstances. 

• but not the only definition and this word has more than one meaning.
  

But they can't have claims which are contradictory. You still don't understand. 

• There's nothing to understand.  You are special pleading some contradiction that your own sources refute.
  

You can't "claim" you are a female any more than you can claim you are 6 foot tall. 

• That is your belief.  The facts are that in modern American society,  people sometimes claim they are female in a legal, social sense.
  

The fact that there are people in modern American society doing it doesn't make it philosophically or conceptually coherent.

• There are many social constructs that are not conceptually conherent.  Monarchies are not philosophically coherent.  Trumpists are not philosophically coherent.   That does contradict the dictionary definiton of Monarch or Trumpist.
  

What is the symetry breaker between this and identifying as 6 foot tall?  

• I don't know what symmetry you are believing in.  I don't believe all or even most social constructs are bound by the physical.
  

So if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female? 

• gender identity (countable and uncountable, plural gender identities)
  

1. (psychology) A person's internal sense of self as belonging to a particular gender or genders, or to no gender.
   

Look I know you have no intellectual originality, but citing dictionaries doesn't actually answer the question I am asking.

• You aren't asking the questions, Lxam. is.  He asked Liberals to define a woman.  Liberals root their opinion in science, academics, medicines, maximum freedom and liberty for all
  

You referred to a female as something you can self identify as, meaning a female is someone who identifies as a female.

• False.  I used my usual go-to dictionary to answer Lxam's question directly.  Liberals have no problems with humans taking control of their identities and demanding validition for any claim that does not trample on the rights of others.
  

Even the dictionary definition you cite is actually wrong because I didn't ask for your definition of gender identity.  

• Not just my dictionary definition but you are claiming most popular dictionary definitions of the past 30 years are wrong because they don't satisfy you.
  

Not at all, I merely observe biological facts, respected by scientists, archeologists etc. You on the other hand fight against first wave feminists, cherishing archetypes not only as desirable ways to act, but as things which actually constitute what a woman is. 

• False.  Even first wave Feminists resented being reduced to biological roles.
  

But I am not reducing them to biological roles - I am observing biological facts.

• ....and demanding that women adjust their self-conception according to those facts.
  

I'm sure first wave feminists wouldn't want men in their bathrooms

• Some prominent feminists did, in fact.  Most women's public stalls required a payment in coin, decades after men's stalls gave up the practice.  First generation feminists argued that pay toilets limited women's access to the public and argued that free, unisex public bathrooms would increase women's freedom.
  

it's roots are incoherent. 

• Not to Feminists, it ain't and not to liberated gay people like me, it ain't.  We understand completely how acknowledging a fellow citizen's right  to be authentic and radical in one's gender identity in spite of the long traditions patriarchs enforced with extreme violence strengthens our validity within the American franchise.  Marriage is a social construct and you can make all kinds of arguments about irrelevancy to the babymaking function of human families but you can't deny the increase in franchise and safety and visibilities LGBTQ people enjoyed as soon a that social construct absorbed our participation.  Likewise, we owe the trans citizen the same full franchise and absorbtion and expect to enjoy only increase freedom and increased participation as the result of that new definition.
  

I am not special pleading because I am utilising the most common understanding of a term

So are you conceding then that gender is conceptually incoherent? If not then what is the point of this red herring? 

What is the symetry breaker between this and identifying as 6 foot tall?  

• I don't know what symmetry you are believing in.  I don't believe all or even most social constructs are bound by the physical.
  

If identification is a valid means of identifying an individuals attributes, just as it is in gender, can we apply the standard to age and height? 

Lxan may have instigated the question what is a woman, but I asked you a question, that is, "if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female?".

So what Lxan may or may not have asked is absolutely irrelevant. 

I am not special pleading because I am utilising the most common understanding of a term

• You've already conceeded that popular usage does not altar the validity of different, even contrary meanings.
  

So are you conceding then that gender is conceptually incoherent? If not then what is the point of this red herring? 

• I have said before: the coherence of the concept relies on the validity of the personal experience, which I do not judge and cannot perceive.   Just I would call a king "your majesty" and respect a nation's right to have a king on the basis of personal sovereignty alone without judgement or analysis, I would call a woman a man if she asks me to, whether or not I find the alteration sincere or convincing.
  

What is the symetry breaker between this and identifying as 6 foot tall?  

• I don't know what symmetry you are believing in.  I don't believe all or even most social constructs are bound by the physical.
  

If identification is a valid means of identifying an individuals attributes, just as it is in gender, can we apply the standard to age and height? 

• People tell me deluded lies about their age and height almost daily.  I don't try to take their rights from them.
  

So if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female? 

• gender identity (countable and uncountable, plural gender identities)
  

1. (psychology) A person's internal sense of self as belonging to a particular gender or genders, or to no gender.
   

Look I know you have no intellectual originality, but citing dictionaries doesn't actually answer the question I am asking.

• You aren't asking the questions, Lxam. is.  He asked Liberals to define a woman.  Liberals root their opinion in science, academics, medicines, maximum freedom and liberty for all
  

Lxan may have instigated the question what is a woman, but I asked you a question, that is, "if a female is someone who identifies as a female, could tell me what it is that they are identifying as given as how you have just used female to define female?".

• I didn't. 
  

• what part of the trans female vlogger makes them female/woman to which you gave a definition of gender, the mistake being you giving me a definition of the category and not the thing.
  

• The answer was plain:  self-identity  as female/woman
  

female (not generally comparable, comparative femaler or more female, superlative femalest or most female)

1. Belonging to the sex which typically produces eggs (ova), or to the gender which is typically associated with it. [from 14th c.] quotations ▼female authors, the leading male and female artists, a female bird cooing at a male, intersex female patients, a trans female vlogger
   
2. Characteristic of this sex/gender. (Compare feminine, womanly.) quotations ▼stereotypically female pastimes, an insect with typically female coloration
   
3. Tending to lead to or regulate the development of sexual characteristics typical of this sex.the female chromosome;   estrogen, the primary female sex hormone, is produced by both females and males
   
4. (grammar, less common than 'feminine') Feminine; of the feminine grammatical gender. quotations ▼
   
5. (of bacteria) Lacking the F factor, and able to receive DNA from another bacterium which does have this factor (a male). quotations ▼
   
6. (figuratively) Having an internal socket, as in a connector or pipe fitting. [from 16th c.] 
   

So a female can be somebody claiming to belonging to the gender associated with producing eggs.  i.e. a trans vlogger

So what Lxan may or may not have asked is absolutely irrelevant. 

• If we are done with the OP then I am done with this forum.
  

You referred to a female as something you can self identify as, meaning a female is someone who identifies as a female.

• False.  I used my usual go-to dictionary to answer Lxam's question directly.  Liberals have no problems with humans taking control of their identities and demanding validition for any claim that does not trample on the rights of others.
  

Ok so now I know you're lying, because I asked what it is about the trans female vlogger which makes them female to which you stated and I quote "The answer was plain:  self-identity as female/woman". So the thing which makes the female vlogger a female is self-identity, that is to say, given the condition they believe they are a female, they are thus a female. So if that is the condition, as you have forced yourself into, then I ask - what exactly is it that they are self identifying as? 

• what lie, asshole?