salvation seems to be both an event, and a process

protestants like to say they are saved, end of discussion. catholics say you have to work out your eventual salvation... but if you look closer, they are willing to say salvation is both an event and a process. i dont think it's very standard for a protestant to say salvation can be a process? 

i think the way to look at this is simply by looking at the question of 'being forgiven'. when we pray the our father, we ask as christians to be forgiven. we dont say 'thank you for forgiving me'. it's a very basic idea of repentance that's foundational... for that foundation to be off would be a wild accusation. 

it's also worth noting, that the bible often talks about falling away and such. like the parable of the seeds and how jesus said some start to grow only to later wilt due to worldly concern. only some seeds grow to maturity. 

to tie into this near death experience philosophy, a person can be loved unconditionally, and in that sense they are always saved, but a person still must face the consequences of their actions. like a mother unconditionally loves her children, she also must let them face their own consequences and actions. it's like near death philosophy says, we go to where our vibration permits. if we have a low vibration, out soul can be saved by becoming a genuine christian. that's all that's necessary. because you will grow into higher vibrations and god has your back. if your words are empty, you wont grow into higher vibrarations. there's a question about whether hell is eternal given near death philosphy, and most of those guys like to say hell is a prison. i think we can all agree that an eternal hell is possible given our free will, but we have to wonder the open question of if hell is eternal for practical purposes. it very well could be, or maybe not. it is central that hell does exist though. only one percent of NDEs are hellish, and they usually just consider that it was a learning experience. a wake up call. 

it's interesting that 'once saved always saved', ties into salvation like that. just like how it's intersesting that 'atonement' ties into the 'justification' and salvation ideas. and lately i've been incorporating NDE philsophy as well. 

I believe hell can only exist for three reasons:

1) to fix people

2) to serve as a place for those outside of heaven

3) to destroy people

I dont think hell is a place where people will be burning eternally, nor does Bible say anywhere that someone will burn eternally.

those are good ideas. yes, the idea of eternal torture is sadistic. but i think we should also be open to annihilation, for those who have no hope. the soul simply ceases to exist. 

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n8nrgim,

YOUR QUOTE OF BIBLE IGNORANCE ONCE AGAIN:  " i think we can all agree that an eternal hell is possible given our free will, but we have to wonder the open question of if hell is eternal for practical purposes."

First thing Bible fool, Jesus as God didn't create Hell and not plan on using it, understood?  Therefore, to update your Bible ignorance again, Hell is most certainly ETERNAL as the Jesus inspired passages so state shown below:

Best.Korea,

YOUR QUOTE SHOWING US THAT YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE HAS NO BOUNDS: "I dont think hell is a place where people will be burning eternally, nor does Bible say anywhere that someone will burn eternally."

Open this link that I have given n8nrgim to see how Bible stupid you are as well where Jesus' inspired words say that His creation will burn ETERNALLY in Hell, then wipe the proverbial egg from you face in front of the membership again: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9299/posts/388757

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Salvation is an assumption relative to an assumption relative to an assumption.

And pretty wild assumptions at that.

Let's start with GODDO, the eternally existent magician.

If you read it bacwards. 

( No it ain't ) is in salvation.  ( No ) (.It )  ( Aint. ) 

 (  the words you find in ( um )( ass )( on ) ( seat )     is more just in ( assumption ) 

Salvation is also an anagram of itself.

So is assumption.

Isn't that weird.

And GOD is an anagram of both  DOG and itself.

And DEB is an anagram of both BED and itself.

Isn't that wired.

I don't think you understand Protestants very well. 

Haven't you ever heard of the "perseverance of the Saints" doctrine? Part 5 of Tulip. 

Christians even in the protestant view see salvation as both an event and a process. We are saved once and for all. And yet we are commanded to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. 

The first part is regeneration. That is - being born again. A once-off event and then there is sanctification which is an all-life process. 

you say there is sanctification in protestantism, which is a life long event. but the thing is, protestants dont usually say that sanctication is tied to one's salvation other than to say that someone who is saved becomes sanctified. is it your stance that most protestants view salvation as a one time event and a process? if that were true, then catholics and protestants dont really think differently on this view even though they're always said to be different. 

I am not sure which protestants you talk to but the one's I talk to and am involved with - would indicate that sanctification is the fruit of salvation. If there is no fruit, then there is no salvation.  

We are not saved by good works, but we are saved unto good works.   If there are no good fruit, then this is evidence that there is no salvation. 

I think the primary distinction between the Catholic and Protestant is in relation to what good works are about?  Some say that being good is how we get salvation and some say that good is something you become after you have received salvation.  In other words, Did God save me or did I save myself? 

how do you view the doctrine of 'once saved always saved"? i think you might be getting at the idea that it's possible to lose one's salvation. at least, you on one way say people must work out their salvation but then say they only need to work out the fruit of their salvation. maybe you mean working out their salvation is such that they are working through while being saved the whole time? or maybe you just mean it's possible to fall away and they must work through that?  cause it's a theological possiblity that a person can be clearly in a state of salvation, but later with free will decide not to be saved. 

Once saved always saved is a dispensational doctrine. It is not reformed. Perseverance of the Saints is similar but different since it is covenant based. 

When I was younger, I thought the two were the same. I was wrong.  Perseverance of the Saints is trusting not in a doctrine but in God. We believe that what God promises he will ensure to keep.  

Salvation - regeneration is an act of God. It takes place in heaven and is a declaration of being justified with God. Sanctification is really the idea of us becoming holy in this life.  It is the act of us becoming more and more like Jesus. It is work that is done by the Spirit of God through his Word. As Jesus through his Spirit took up residence in our lives at regeneration, so he by his Spirit is changing and redecorating and renovating our lives so that they become more and more like him. 

The fruits of the Spirit are the fruit of regeneration.  I don't think people choose to become Christian. I think God chooses to make us his people. The word covenant is key here.  

We take the view that it is the trustworthiness of God that keeps us in his hands. It is not our work or lack of work that puts us in or takes us out.  Yet without good fruits, it is doubtful you were there in the first place. Yet good works itself is not proof of salvation.  

Many people fall away from what they consider to be salvation. They have tasted, but never swallowed.   Yet this is why we say it is in the hands of God and not ourselves.  Catholics as a rule hold to a synergistic view of salvation. Many protestants do too. Yet in the Reformed view, we hold to monogenism.  

Hope that helps.

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Stephen,

Yes, I know, Miss Tradesecret uses her weak OPINIONS over the actual words of Jesus within the scriptures, where for me alone, it is almost a full time job here on DEBATEART Religion forum to correct her Bible Stupidity all the time!

MISS TRADESECRET'S WEAK QUOTE WITHOUT BIBLE CITATION TO BACK IT UP #1: "Salvation - regeneration is an act of God. It takes place in heaven and is a declaration of being justified with God. Sanctification is really the idea of us becoming holy in this life.  It is the act of us becoming more and more like Jesus. It is work that is done by the Spirit of God through his Word. As Jesus through his Spirit took up residence in our lives at regeneration, so he by his Spirit is changing and redecorating and renovating our lives so that they become more and more like him."

Deciphering  her mish-mash gibberish above, she states that there is absolutely NO FREE will if being a pseudo-christian, which her inept mind says pseudo-christians like her do have free will. NOT!  

Nonetheless, when she states the following, the pseudo-christian does not have FREE WILL as shown: "As Jesus through his Spirit took up residence in our lives at regeneration, so he by his Spirit is changing and redecorating and renovating our lives so that they become more and more like him"

Her actually giving in to pseudo-christians not having free will like shown above in her quote, is equal to the following passages that put the final candles upon the proverbial cake that show that pseudo-christians DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL!

JESUS SAID: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope (Jeremiah 29:11).

Poor Miss Tradesecrets congregation at church where they don't know "they are being taken to the cleaners" with her outright Bible Stupidity all the time, so sad.

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Stephen,

MISS TRADESECRET'S WEAK QUOTE WITHOUT BIBLE CITATION TO BACK IT UP #3: "Yet good works itself is not proof of salvation”
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9299/posts/389090

I can't count the times where I have had to correct Miss Tradesecret upon this biblical notion of hers above in front of the membership, whereas I have to correct her again in her embarrassment! 

SALVATION IS CONNECTED TO GOOD WORKS:

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then  He will reward each according to his works.   (Matthew 16.27)

"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:20)

JESUS SAID: “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone..” (James 2: 14-17)


Stephen, we can only wonder when Miss Tradesecret preaches to her congregtaion, and afterwards totaling up the “collection plate,” in where that un-reportable CASH really goes in her behalf!

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Stephen,

MISS TRADESECRET'S WEAK AND EMBARRASSING ENDING TO N8NRGIM: "Hope that helps.”
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9299/posts/389090

HUH? How can the outright gibberish and ungodly statements she proffered to n8nrgim, without any Bible citations whatsoever, other than her weak opinions, ever help him?  As Jesus and I have shown with my previous posts in blatantly CORRECTING Miss Tradesecret AGAIN, due to her outright BIBLE STUPIDITY, is what helped n8nrgim, where he should be thanking me! LOL!


Stephen, we've talked about this many times, where we don't know how Miss Tradesecret can sleep at night in being so Bible Stupid, and in passing this on to her congregation that doesn't know any better, where they will certainly pay upon Judgment Day along with Miss Tradesecret!

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The Reverend Tradesecret talks for the sake of it Brother D. and no other reason.  S/he ran out of steam a long time ago. He's been exposed by me many times for the liar he is, and his bible duncery is beyond belief.  No one really wants to engage with the idiot (especially me), he can never hold his own and simply turns to more lies in the belief this somehow compensates for his lack of anything slightly intelligent to say.

When the Reverend blocked me did me, he a great favour. But this is another thing that compulsive liars are prone to do. They will cut off their own nose to spite their face. I can do without the twat.

Im gonna join the Christians the muslims  and any others . 

24 hrs   before i die..

if i can time it right. 

If not no biggy 

So like.

To " become" a Christians for example what are we looking at  ? 

15 , 30 seconds tops . 

And thats ( to be fair ) ( 10, 000  diffrent tickets for the draw .)  

No. ?  ? 

For christ sake guys .

Ok ok them .   

well lets SAY THAT THERE IS ONLY.

                                       5000 DIFFRENT TYPES OF CHRISTIANS DENOMINATIONS.  

Is this FAIR ? 

Thank you.  

5000 tickets for heaven 

Now this might sound like im boasting ,  buttttttt.

I can be a Muslim in under a minute flat.

Yep.     (  2 more entries for ' heaven access granted '  ) 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Now that fact that there's

《《《    20,000  DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHRISTIANS.   》》》 

And  only

2 and a bit types of  Muslims . . 

Is to be fair .   

A totallyyyyyyyyyy  different post all together.  

But It is always worthy of a quick chuckle.

hehehe.   

■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■

 

Fuck it ima just gonna say it .

THEIEST ARE UNCANNILY BRILLIANT RELIGIOUS GROUP PICKERS.

Or am i like fuck out of my fuking minddddddddd.

Narff , zerp, zerp.  

And this isn't the case.

When put  to theists the question.        Are you in the correct  ? 

They go yep ,

The dont go frigging,  humm IDK .

You dont devot your whole living life to IDK.

THEY GO YEP. 

Yep , and they look at ya like they are thinking whats he gonna ask next . .

LIKE I'VE  JUST GREEN LIGHTED   

Again , 20,000 groups.  Are you in tbe correct one ?

Yes they say , move the fuck on,

Me personally.

And my   bad luck and all  (  yes mutha fuckas  atheist are allowed to believe in luck ,

look up the figgen rules )  

I'd pick the wrong  one ,  '  Quickly  adds up '    group 417 times. 

Before NAILING IT .  (  you know when ya nail it to )               ^ dont say nailing it ^

Obviously the bible dives into the  laws of avragees and shit right  ?m  

So whats that make it. ?  One chance out of 20,000 .

As a fractio ?  

No lets do it in smarties.  My fave.m

Bill has 20, 000 smarties on a table and all over the floor. 

I leave that there,   You know the rest. . It's seriously  embarrassing.  

ERGO 

ERGO  

I repeat .

THEISTS ARE AWSOME RELIGIOUS GROUP PICKERS.  AND OR.  SMARTIE SELECTORS 

ATHEISTS ARE VERY POOR AND WEAK ,  TOTALLY USELESS   RELIGIOUS GROUP PICKERS. AND SMARTIES POOR. 

Thats FAIR ?

We the atheists see this 

ER   friggen   GO

THEISTS.

CAN YOU HELP US HOPLESS ATHEISTS  AKA  NOT AT ALL GOOD PICKERS OF  THE 1 TO 20,000. 

PLEASE.  Guys  

Smartieilliterite.

No i just need to .

Weed out crapy denoman

 I just denouncing the crappy groups i the christians. 

Like rhe gys from the watchtower 

                       ▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪  JEHOVAH   WITNESS  CHRISTIANS.  ▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪ 

OR THE 

SEVENTH DAY DICK  Christians.     Leave

Ill weed em out later. 

Good game. 

Good game. 

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Stephen,

It is very sad that some of our members actually think that Miss Tradesecret is giving them proper knowledge and descriptions within the Bible, but 99.99 percent of the time, it is her  weak "opinions" that are not vouchsafed with biblical axioms!  Whereas Jesus tells me in prayer to correct Miss Tradesecret's  Bible Stupidity because He says that she is giving His faith of Christianity a bad name!

I know you are let off the hook of Miss Tradesecret being so unbelievably Bible inept, but me being the only TRUE Christian upon this esteemed Religion Forum, I have to follow Jesus' direction in correcting her outright Bible Duncery®️ as long has she has the nerve to stay upon this forum making a fool of herself.

I truly feel sorry for her preaching to her congregation where it is the blind leading the blind.

I have corrected then Reverend bible dunce Tradesecret  many, many, many times because of his serious lack biblical knowledge Brother D...but it wasn't on the instructions of your lord Jesus.  No. It was simply because I had read the bible and that the Reverend twatington Tradesecret hadn't.