The transgenderism debate

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@<<<oromagi>>>

You've responded to like 15% of what I wrote. I guess you agree with everything else I wrote.

Actually, like Trump, I pay Stormy to do it for me.

You've responded to like 15% of what I wrote. I guess you agree with everything else I wrote.

• I just cut the repetitions and tangents.
  

OK, let's' stop right there.  

You are asserting that there is such a think as a Transgender Ideology and that it is defined as "The notion that people can be born into the wrong gender/biological sex is an acceptable interpretation, and not a mental illness,"

YFL asserts that Transgender Ideology is , "  "gender identity is as important as biological sex," which is a radically different claim.

The first assertion is mainstream scientific reporting of observable facts and not a belief in any sense (and therefore not ideology).

I suggest you start a new forum topic where all the bigots get on the same page about what Transgendered Ideology believes and then try to find at least three examples of influential people making such a claim in questions of public policy.

Oh you engage in stupid appeal to authorities as well.

Oh you engage in stupid appeal to authorities as well.

oof, didn't take you long either to find his Achilles Heel.

Not just observable, physical characteristics, but also behavioral ones. That's why we have gendered concepts such as 'mother nature', as nature gives birth and that's one of the essential functions of a mother (i.e. female). That's why nurturing is typically associated with females. There are plenty examples of typical female behavior extending into gendered notions.

My point of contention isn't that transgender people could never 'pass', despite the biological reality misaligning with their outward physical transformation.

My point is that transgenderism is a mental illness that shouldn't be indulged in -- just because you can look like the opposite sex doesn't mean you should. By allowing transgender people to engage in their mental illness, you're doing as much harm as telling a schizophrenic that the voices in their head are real and should be listened to. 

Classifications of biological sex are a "human construct", sure, but that doesn't give license to classify or term things however you want.

So, The New York Times is the only reliable source, and I must get my evidence from there. 

I just provided for you a bunch of sources, but you didn't like their opinions, so you said they are not reliable.

A lot of biased sources can be reliable if they claim they have studies to back it up, and not just opinionated blabbering.

Also, how about you address the hunter Biden laptop story.

I literally provided you many sources saying exactly to a T, that transgenderism is an ideology.

The fact that it is an ideology isn't bad, so I don't know why you are arguing against it. Now I don't agree with this ideology.

You're claiming that if a news source or media source distorted any election for any political view, then you can't trust them to say that transgenderism is an ideology?

• But then obviously, just as it would be evil of you to refer to all Catholics as pedophiles and who believe in an pedophilism ideology  that you mysteriously call Catholicism, it is exactlyh the same evil to refer to all transgender people when you are attempting to label some extremist minority opinion.   
  

Ok, I am going to say this one more time. Not all transgender people are pedophilic.

My point is that calling an ideology that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT does not represent transgendered people "TRANSGENDERISM" is every bit as socially unaceptable a renaming pedophilia Catholicism.

It does though, because even transgender people in real life and spokespersons for this ideology have claimed this is true.

I suggest you start a new forum topic where all the bigots get on the same page about what Transgendered Ideology believes and then try to find at least three examples of influential people making such a claim in questions of public policy.

My point is that transgenderism is a mental illness that shouldn't be indulged in -- just because you can look like the opposite sex doesn't mean you should. By allowing transgender people to engage in their mental illness, you're doing as much harm as telling a schizophrenic that the voices in their head are real and should be listened to. 

What one should do is entirely subjective. Since you are not transgender you really have no business telling people who've been dealing with these issues what they should be doing.

Calling it a mental illness is nothing but a meaningless subjective opinion.

Oh you engage in stupid appeal to authorities as well.

Way to be a typical shitlib, shitlib.

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@<<<oromagi>>>

I suggest you start a new forum topic where all the bigots get on the same page about what Transgendered Ideology believes and then try to find at least three examples of influential people making such a claim in questions of public policy.

Can't disprove her, so you ascribe the label of bigot to her, as with the rest of us with whom you disagree with but continuously FAIL to disprove. 

Typical intellectual coward move. 

• If your conclusion is that the idelogogy of Transgenderism must be eradicated, it seems pretty fundamental that all eradicators agree on the definition of the ideology of Transgenderism.  
  
• If everybody has a different definition of the ideology of transgenderism and all of those defiinitions come from enemies of transgender people, that goes a long way to proving that no such ideology truly exists the notion is just a tool transgender enemies use for targetting.
  

• If your conclusion is that the idelogogy (sic) of Transgenderism must be eradicated, it seems pretty fundamental that all eradicators agree on the definition of the ideology of Transgenderism.  
  

• If everybody has a different definition of the ideology of transgenderism and all of those defiinitions (sic)come from enemies of transgender people, that goes a long way to proving that no such ideology truly exists the (sic) notion is just a tool transgender enemies use for targetting. (sic)
  

The ideology exists. It's been affirmed.

After weeks of discussion, not one of you has been able to provide the first bit of evidence that such an ideology exists outside of the right-wing echo chamber.

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@<<<oromagi>>>

After weeks of discussion, not one of you has been able to provide the first bit of evidence that such an ideology exists outside of the right-wing echo chamber.

Ah, but your lack of attention to detail serves you yet again. 

I have given evidence in this very thread. Like ludofl3x ignoring and denying, so are you. 

• Then it should be a supremely simple exercise for you to quote three pro-trans rights media figures stating that transgender ideology in a cohesive way.  
  

• Then it should be a supremely simple exercise for you to quote three pro-trans rights media figures stating that transgender ideology in a cohesive way.  
  

Not just observable, physical characteristics, but also behavioral ones. That's why we have gendered concepts such as 'mother nature', as nature gives birth and that's one of the essential functions of a mother (i.e. female). That's why nurturing is typically associated with females. There are plenty examples of typical female behavior extending into gendered notions.

Yes, you are correct - behavioral characteristics are part of it as well. However the ability to give birth is irrelevant to ones behavior.

My point of contention isn't that transgender people could never 'pass', despite the biological reality misaligning with their outward physical transformation.

No, but your arguments align with the notion that gender 'must be' based on biology in order to be coherent. I'm pointing out that they have never been. We may have always understood it to be what makes the difference, but in our everyday lives the only tool we have ever had to tell the difference is simple observation.

My point is that transgenderism is a mental illness that shouldn't be indulged in -- just because you can look like the opposite sex doesn't mean you should. By allowing transgender people to engage in their mental illness, you're doing as much harm as telling a schizophrenic that the voices in their head are real and should be listened to. 

What one should do is entirely subjective. Since you are not transgender you really have no business telling people who've been dealing with these issues what they should be doing.

Calling it a mental illness is nothing but a meaningless subjective opinion.

Classifications of biological sex are a "human construct", sure, but that doesn't give license to classify or term things however you want.

Who decides what classifications and or terms are valid?

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@<<<oromagi>>>

• Then it should be a supremely simple exercise for you to quote three pro-trans rights media figures stating that transgender ideology in a cohesive way.  
  

What rock are you living under?

Every chant by pro-trans: "Trans Women ARE women!"

Everyn chant by pro-trans: "Trans Men ARE men!!!"

Every chant by pro-trans: "Trans rights are human rights!"

• Then it should be a very simple task for you to produce three pro-trans rights media figures stating that transgender ideology in a cohesive way. 
  
• Why are you failing to produce?
  

Every chant by pro-trans: "Trans rights are human rights!"

• This is just basic American liberalism.  All transpeople are created equal to all non-trans and are deserving of every human right, the same as every other human.  Yes, I know you just let your secret agenda cat out of your secret agenda bag but no good American fails to believe that transpeople are deserving of human rights.
  

• I never said that.  Please go fuck yourself for making up so many lies about what I'm saying.  If you can't argue honestly, don't argue at all.
  

Another lie. 

The Southern Baptists and the dishonored Heritage foundation were rejected as themselves ideological enterprises and therefore non-objective sources for defining your phony term.

• But when the Harvard Law Review and Stanford School of Medicine catch your "journalists" making up their own studies and fact to justify their false beliefs, we can dismiss those studies and the Foundatin behind them  as corrupt and anti-scientific and driven by religious hate and political profit and not objective science.  ALL rational debaters reject studies like this is they want to be, as you pretend to be, on the side of "science and biology"  Because the Heritage Foundation cheated at the science, no honorable objective opinion can trust it.
  

Go fuck your desperate childish attempts to change the subject.

 Prove Transgender Ideology is a real belief and quickly or admit your haven't really thought your claim through.

I don't believe this.

Ok, well thats on you.

• You provide one cuckoo anti-science religious source and once cuckoo anti-science poltical source.  
  

Southern Baptists are not a legitimate source for defining something called transgender ideology. 

• Nobody agrees with it.  You haven't produces one single person who agrees with it.
  

No, I'm saying traitors to my country have proved they don't have American's best interest at heart.

When discussing American public policy, let's only rely on people who want American democracy to succeed and never, ever listen to  traitors who have revealed that they are working to destroy American democracy.

• A very cowardly non-sequitur.  Nobody claimed otherwise.  Focus:
  
• Labeling all Catholics pedophiles = labeling all Transgenders Transgenderists
  

• Stop.  You must support this claim or fuck off as a dishonest troll.
  
• You claim there are"transgender people in real life and spokespersons who claim  that  gender identity is as important as biological sex"
  
• Provide three example of transgender spokespeople making this claim.  
  
• No, we can't have any right-wingers telling us what they think transgender spokepeole say, give us the actual proof that this idealogy exists.
  

Also chill out, because debating online against a 16-year-old, about transgender ideology. It's not that deep.

The Southern Baptists and the dishonored Heritage foundation were rejected as themselves ideological enterprises and therefore non-objective sources for defining your phony term.

This is your opinion on these foundations. You don't like what they do, so you disown them as valuable data and sources. This is what the left does.

I dare you to go to these study's that you despise so much and find something in the study that proves it is biased and not true. Do it. Go through the data and do it.

Also chill out, because debating online against a 16-year-old, about transgender ideology. It's not that deep.

• Just because you aren't old or bright enough to understand  the destruction such rhetoric inflicts on civil societies, does not mean you get to tell me to chill out regarding the threat you pose.
  

No, this is what reasoned thought and science does. You said you want to make the argument on the basis of science but those two sources don't have any scientific credibility whatsoever.  Southern Baptists and Heritage foundation are hyper-subjective opinion, they literally make their money by agitating the fears of the gullible regarding all non-white Christian males. 

• Greene, Puberty Blockers, Cross-Sex Hormones, and Youth Suicide
  
• Extremely  well distributed across the Right Wing on Twitter, Facebook, reported by FOX News, WSJ, all major right-wing media.
  

• Notice that although Greene represent his report as a scientific study, his study was never published or even submitted to any scientific journal, no peer review was ever sought and a freshman in sociology could explain why Greene's report could never pass any peer review.
  

• Greene himself has his doctorate in Political Science.  No scientists, particularly medical professionals or biologists were involved in writing this report.  No transgendered people participated in Greene's analysis of transgendered behavior.
  

• Greene's thesis goes like this, "there are 33 states where doctors are not compelled to seek parental permission before treating a minor, with an incedible amount of variety within those 33 states regarding circumstances.  Those 33 states have seen a 1.6 per 100,000 increase in suicide among ages 12-23 since 2010 and 2010 is when hormone therapies started become widely available, therefore the lack of compulsory parental permission is causing more teen suicide.
  

I can't agree with the latter part.

The ability to give birth is surrounded by many behavioral instincts that are a result of biological ones

Yes, my argument is that gender "must be" based on biology in order to be coherent.

Otherwise, you end up being to make up whatever you want about gender, and thus gender becomes fiction.

As for only having simple observation in the past, that's true. People based their political opinions of transgenderism off their feelings/implicit knowledge, and I think it's fine to criticize that. Even today, a lot of opposition to transgender people is 'it makes me feel uncomfortable'. But some of us have moved past that onto rigorous studies that show transgenderism is a mental disorder.

I don't need to stick my hand into a fire to know that I will be burnt. Lived experience isn't grounds for argument or dismissal. Otherwise, all the 100,000s of alien sightings are real and you can't say otherwise since you weren't there.

Those facts don't paint a picture of a stable mind.

but that doesn't give license to classify or term things however you want.

I can't declare that all colors are green and expect everyone to agree with me.

I can't declare that my transgender identity is a new gender and expect everyone to agree with me. 

There's an underlying reality to gender that we can socially construct labels for.

I hope you aren’t proposing we put transgender people in concentration camps

“Transgenderism" isn't one person's idea, it's a collection of ideas advanced by a significant portion of our society

I can't agree with the latter part.

The ability to give birth is surrounded by many behavioral instincts that are a result of biological ones

None of this is relevant. We are discussing the characteristics associated with our conception of gender. You're going into what causes the behavior for most. The cause is irrelevant to the behavior itself. If one is nurturing, that is considered by most to be a feminine trait. It doesn't become masculine because the individual it turns out is unable to give birth.

Yes, my argument is that gender "must be" based on biology in order to be coherent.

Otherwise, you end up being to make up whatever you want about gender, and thus gender becomes fiction.

If gender is based off of all the traits and characteristics we've been discussing, there is nothing incoherent about it. But in order to make it incoherent you invent caricature to attack instead.

The LGBTQIA conception of gender is about how one lives their lives, not about what one feels from one moment to the next.

This isn't complicated, unless you want it to be.

As for only having simple observation in the past, that's true. People based their political opinions of transgenderism off their feelings/implicit knowledge, and I think it's fine to criticize that. Even today, a lot of opposition to transgender people is 'it makes me feel uncomfortable'. But some of us have moved past that onto rigorous studies that show transgenderism is a mental disorder.

The question of whether transgenderism is a mental disorder has nothing to do with the fact that we as humans do, always have, and always will rely simply on our observations to make a determination regarding ones gender and/or biological sex.

I don't need to stick my hand into a fire to know that I will be burnt. Lived experience isn't grounds for argument or dismissal. Otherwise, all the 100,000s of alien sightings are real and you can't say otherwise since you weren't there.

Whether aliens have visited earth is a question about objective reality to which there is an objective answer. Your statement was regarding what trans people should do. They are not analogous.

Those facts don't paint a picture of a stable mind.

Classic correlation/causation fallacy. Trans people are the most ridiculed and least welcomed people in our society. How stable do you think you'd be living in a society where such a large swath of it look at where you draw your most basic sense of self identity and consider you mentally ill because of it?

People like you are the leading cause of the thing you pretend to be so against.

There's an underlying reality to gender that we can socially construct labels for.

Yes, and the reality is that the traits and characteristics we have always used to determine what gender one is has never before came from a biology text book.

Gender is only useful to us in a social sense, so this insistence that it must be based on science/biology is complete nonsense.

“Transgenderism" isn't one person's idea, it's a collection of ideas advanced by a significant portion of our society

*scratching my head* Yet ya’ll claim it is decidedly not this:

i·de·ol·o·gy

noun

1. 
   

   a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
   

   "the ideology of democracy"
   

… and claim that this “not an ideology!” is coherent…

Greene himself has his doctorate in Political Science.  No scientists, particularly medical professionals or biologists were involved in writing this report.  No transgendered people participated in Greene's analysis of transgendered behavior.

More Ad Hominem attacks. More attempts at an authoritarian jam-down to attack people, rather than arguments.