Objjective morality?

Author: SkepticalOne
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#31
Elliott
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@Best.Korea
And yet the safest and best countries in the world are Christian countries.

I really enjoy watching atheism refute itself. Another victory for the Bible.
Depends what you mean by safest and best, as many European countries are  secular and without a majority belief in God.

 Here in the UK only 37% believe there is a God. In France it is 27%, in the Netherlands it is 28%, in Belgium 37%, in Finland 33%, in Denmark 28% and in Sweden 18%. 

In the US it is 81%.
#32
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@SkepticalOne
I like Matt Dillahunty’s take on it:  the foundation of a moral code is subjective, but what proceeds from that foundation can be objective.
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#33
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@cristo71
I like Matt Dillahunty’s take on it: the foundation of a moral code is subjective, but what proceeds from that foundation can be objective.
Yes, I agree. That description fits reality as I understand it. I don't think he qualifies that as objective morality though.
#34
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@Best.Korea
A tolerant  Nation comprises an entire population and it's shared ideas. Sweden is therefore secular, but with a larger proportion of it's  population choosing to take part in Lutheran practices.

This doesn't necessarily make Sweden a Christian Country.


The USA has a female majority.

So therefore is the USA a Female Country.

#35
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Actually, Sweden is a highly secular nation and almost half of Swedes say that religion is 'not at all important', according to a survey by Pew Research Center. It seems Sweden is one of the least religious countries in the world, along with countries such as the Czech Republic, France, Japan, Australia, UK and the Netherlands. Only about two in ten Swedes say that religion is 'somewhat important' or 'very important', compared with, for example, seven in ten Americans.
Not all Swedes are comfortable with the at times prominent cultural role of the church either, and many people pursue alternative forms of ritual. For example, only about 23 per cent of weddings are officiated by the Church of Sweden today. In 1970, that figure was 80 per cent.
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#36
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@Elliott
Depends what you mean by safest and best, as many European countries are secular and without a majority belief in God.
It also depends on what you mean by Christian countries. There is too much wiggle room in this statement to warrant a serious response. 
#37
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@SkepticalOne
It also depends on what you mean by Christian countries. There is too much wiggle room in this statement to warrant a serious response. 
True, from an historical perspective Spain under the Holy Inquisition could be termed a Christian country.
#38
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@YouFound_Lxam
They are humans born with a mental disorder. They are not normal humans. 
What you are describing as a mental disorder is merely the fact that these people don't fit your mold. Therefore your augment is that morality is objective because all humans who have a moral conscious have a moral conscious.

And that is of course setting aside how even if your original premise were true would that make morality objective...
#39
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#40
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@Elliott
many European countries are  secular and without a majority belief in God.
Wrong. They were built by Christianity. Their leaders were Christians and up until last 10 years their population was Christian by great majority in every case. Therefore, Christianity is what made those countries. 


 Here in the UK only 37% believe there is a God.
Yes. Atheism didnt build the UK. In 2010, 70% of UK population was Christian. The UK was built by Christians. Its laws were made by Christians. Its children were raised by Christians. For thousands of years, the territory was Christian. Atheism only became popular in last 5-10 years. Therefore, atheism doesnt get the credit for what Christians built. Christianity gets credit for UK.


In France it is 27%
No, its 51% Christians.


in the Netherlands it is 28% 
No, its 34%. In 2015, it was 44%. In 2000, it was 68% Christian. The Prime Minister of Netherlands is Mark Rutte. He is a Christian. Christianity created Netherlands.


in Belgium 37%
No, its 60%.


in Finland 33%
No, its 70%.


in Denmark 28% 
No, its 75%.


and in Sweden 18%
No, it is 61%.


In the US it is 81%
No, it is 65%. The US was built by Christians.

The numbers I gave are after the recent rise in atheism. Before the rise in atheism, these countries were Christian by great majority (80% of their population). Today, the Christians are in most cases majority of 60% in countries that are considered best in the world. It was Christians that did the work to build these countries into prosperity.

#41
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@Elliott
UK didnt get better during recent increase in atheism.

The crime rate got worse, the number of rape cases has doubled. This indicates that atheism still doesnt work.


#42
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@Best.Korea

In August 2021   a study in France said 49 percent believed in God and 51 percent did not believe in God.
#43
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@zedvictor4
This doesn't necessarily make Sweden a Christian Country. The USA has a female majority. So therefore is the USA a Female Country.
A country built by females. Apparently, reproduction is impossible without male and female. At least you admitted that Sweden has Christian majority, which only leads to conclusion that Sweden was built by Christians, since its government is Christian and its people are Christian and historically they were overwhelmingly Christians. Atheism is not necessary to build a country, and countries become worse when atheism increases. I guess its God's punishment.
#44
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@FLRW
Same site says that the number of rape cases have also increased in France with the rise of atheism.

#45
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@Best.Korea

Yes, I read that 95 percent of the rapists were Catholics and 5 percent were Muslims.
#46
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@FLRW
Just like trans shooter was a Christian?

No. When there were more Christians, there was less rape.

More atheists = more rape.

Its the atheists who argued for letting migrants into the country. Its what happens when you let atheists get any control over anything.
#47
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@Best.Korea
A major report prepared by an independent commission and published 10/05/2021 on child sex abuse in the French Catholic Church has shed light on thousands of child sex abuse cases over the past 70 years.
The 2,500-page document details how an estimated 3,000 child abusers, two-thirds of them priests, worked in the Catholic Church in France over seven decades.
The president of the commission that issued the report, Jean-Marc Sauve, told a news conference that the estimated number of victims was believed to 330,000, if you include offenses by lay members of the Church such as teachers at Catholic schools. An estimated 216,000 were victims of French clergy.

Remember that God did get a 14-year-old virgin pregnant.
#48
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@Best.Korea
many European countries are  secular and without a majority belief in God.
Wrong. They were built by Christianity. Their leaders were Christians and up until last 10 years their population was Christian by great majority in every case. Therefore, Christianity is what made those countries. 


 Here in the UK only 37% believe there is a God.
Yes. Atheism didnt build the UK. In 2010, 70% of UK population was Christian. The UK was built by Christians. Its laws were made by Christians. Its children were raised by Christians. For thousands of years, the territory was Christian. Atheism only became popular in last 5-10 years. Therefore, atheism doesnt get the credit for what Christians built. Christianity gets credit for UK.


In France it is 27%
No, its 51% Christians.


in the Netherlands it is 28% 
No, its 34%. In 2015, it was 44%. In 2000, it was 68% Christian. The Prime Minister of Netherlands is Mark Rutte. He is a Christian. Christianity created Netherlands.


in Belgium 37%
No, its 60%.


in Finland 33%
No, its 70%.


in Denmark 28% 
No, its 75%.


and in Sweden 18%
No, it is 61%.


In the US it is 81%
No, it is 65%. The US was built by Christians.

The numbers I gave are after the recent rise in atheism. Before the rise in atheism, these countries were Christian by great majority (80% of their population). Today, the Christians are in most cases majority of 60% in countries that are considered best in the world. It was Christians that did the work to build these countries into prosperity.


This is from the link you posted, it states that “the number of people who actually believe in God or who regularly attend church is not addressed.”
This is from the Pew Research Centre that is referenced in your link, it also gives a list relating to country of the percentage of people who say they believe in God with absolute certainty

As to what built the UK,it was technology and a powerful navy. It enabled us to build an empire by attacking weaker countries like India and to impose our supposed Christian ethos on them by force.
#49
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@Best.Korea

Well, A transgender pastor compared Nashville shooter Audrey Hale to Jesus being betrayed and crucified less than a week after Hale murdered six people at a Christian school.
Micah Louwagie, who was recently formally installed as the pastor of St. Mark's Lutheran Church in Fargo, North Dakota, delivered the Easter-themed sermon to the small congregation on April 2.
#50
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@Best.Korea
UK didnt get better during recent increase in atheism.

The crime rate got worse, the number of rape cases has doubled. This indicates that atheism still doesnt work.

Try looking up crime in the Victorian era.

 I would also suggest looking up the history of Christianity, its rise is steeped in bloodshed and torture and not just of nonbelievers but of other Christians.
#51
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@SkepticalOne
Without divine authority, you cannot have objective morality. 
I'm not convinced that is true.
I am absolutelyconvinced that it is not true.

I'm also not convinced morality need be objective to function. Convince me. 
Try this one on.

Morality entails how one “ought” to behave, consequently, the question of morality is epistemic rather than ontological, so the very term “Objective Morality” frames the question wrong.  If it is a matter of how one “ought” to behave, then the epistemological question becomes how do we determine what that is? 

Epistemologically speaking, perhaps the answer to the question of "what that is" is that people "ought to behave" as if there is an objectivity to morality.

The assumption of freedom is a condition of the possibility of moral action, we presume free will for acting on moral principles in the first place.  Consequently, morality is necessarily a choice for us to make, and how we "ought to behave" becomes a pragmatic consideration.

Morality is objectively grounded in human nature, it is an objective fact that human beings experience a reality that includes values, purposes, and meanings. Everywhere humans have existed they have held moral values that are apprehended in and through ordinary experience, morality is experienced as the response to a discernment of objective values. Consequently, morality does objectively exist as a defining aspect of human nature.  Consequently, we can arrive at objective moral knowledge in the same way that we arrive at other types of objective knowledge, by the discernment of underlying principles which are tested by examining how well those principles align with further observations of the world of our experience.

Practically speaking, we can all go on debating the subjective/objective paradox forever and we can find plenty of intellectual reasons to vote either way, but maybe we should pragmatically accept the responsibility that comes with the freedom to choose, turn away from unresolvable and obfuscating intellectual constructs, and simply vote with our life by choosing to act the way we know we ought to act, in recognition that seeing morality as objective is an axiom that makes a moral life possible.

There, convinced?


#52
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@SkepticalOne
If by "basic moral conscience" you mean the conscience of a sociopath, then...uh...sure. This isn't doing a lot to support your conclusion though. Nor does it explain how a *normal* person's right and wrong are objective. 
What I am saying, is that every human being has a moral conscience, that a lines with everyone else's. 

There are subjectively wrong things. 
There are subjectively right things.

Everyone including sociopaths can agree on that. 
#53
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@SkepticalOne
I like Matt Dillahunty’s take on it: the foundation of a moral code is subjective, but what proceeds from that foundation can be objective.
Yes, I agree. That description fits reality as I understand it. I don't think he qualifies that as objective morality though.
It seems to me it comes down to how we define "objective", or "real", how we determine what constitutes "existence". 

Typically, when you ask for an example of objective truth, you get mathematics, something like 2 + 2 =4 is an objective truth.  

At some stage of hominid development, our ancestors acquired a brain structure that gave them access to the mental world of mathematics.  It then became as much a part of their environment as was the landscape in which they lived, and they did what animals do, they explored their environment, and in the process they  discovered the reality in which they lived. We can pontificate all day long as to whether or not that reality ontologically “exists” or is “real”, but the fact remains that it is a part of our realty, it is a feature of our experience, and an aspect of the environment we explore, objectively real as any other aspect of their environment. 

The kind of consideration in the case of mathematical experience that led us to discover an enriched human environment applies equally to other distinctive forms of human ability. The human experience includes qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, and these ethical intuitions are an apprehension of the existence of a moral dimension of reality open to our exploration. 

This process of development provides its own beautiful process-product circularity, as we discover further humanizing facts about the nature of the reality of our experience, we define our human nature, and an objectively real human world of experience comes into being  I see no reason to think Morality is any less objectively real than mathematics.
#54
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@Sidewalker
I have 4 bunches of bananas.

In one bunch there are 5 bananas

In another 6

In another 4

In another 3

So 2 + 2 might equal  18, or 4 or 9 + 9, or 10 + 8, or 11 + 7.

Therefore 2 + 2 does not necessarily equal 4.

Such are the possibilities of internal data processing/ subjectivity.

Objectivity is also an internal assumption.
#55
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@Elliott
You read it wrong.

From your link:

"The countries with the most people reporting no belief in any sort of spirit, god, or higher power are France (40%), Czech Republic (37%), Sweden (34%), Netherlands (30%), Estonia (29%), Germany (27%), Belgium (27%) and Slovenia (26%)."

Those are the percentages of atheists, not percentages of believers.
#56
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@Elliott
Your other link doesnt mention percentage of religious, but percentage of "highly religious". Do you know the difference between religious and highly religious?


 I would also suggest looking up the history of Christianity
Did Christianity kill billions of people?

In the entire two thousand year history of Christianity, the answer is no.

Atheist values managed to kill billions in just 100 years.

Atheists like Stalin, Mao and Hitler killed over 100 million people in just couple of decades.

Atheists aborted over 1 billion children, therefore committing the biggest mass murder in the entire history of humanity.

Atheism doesnt work.

No country ever became better from rise in atheism or atheist values.

Rise in atheism or rise of atheist values is always being followed by rise in rape, depression, violence, suicides, murders, abortions and castration of children.

#57
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@Elliott
As to what built the UK,it was technology and a powerful navy.
So the Christian countries also have the best military?

#58
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@Best.Korea
Did Christianity kill billions of people?

In the entire two thousand year history of Christianity, the answer is no.

Atheist values managed to kill billions in just 100 years.

Atheists like Stalin, Mao and Hitler killed over 100 million people in just couple of decades.

Atheists aborted over 1 billion children, therefore committing the biggest mass murder in the entire history of humanity.

Atheism doesnt work.

No country ever became better from rise in atheism or atheist values.

Rise in atheism or rise of atheist values is always being followed by rise in rape, depression, violence, suicides, murders, abortions and castration of children.

That Stalin, Mao and Hitler were able to kill so many people in justcouple of decades is largely down to the availability of modern technology. If therising Christian church had access to such technology they would probably havekilled many more. 

Iaccept that Mao and Stalin were atheists although their position was more antitheist. Hitlerhowever is a different matter, as to his personal religious beliefs there issome debate but there is little doubt that he used Christianity the helppromote his antisemitism. 

In a 1928 speech Hitler said - "We tolerate no one inour ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity. Our movement isChristian."

 In Mein Kampf, Hitler declared, “Hence today I believe thatI am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defendingmyself against the Jews, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” 

The thing about atheism, it is simple a disbelief in a godor gods there is no political doctrine attached to it. Similar can be said fortheism, it is simply a belief in a god or gods and no religious doctrine need be attachedto it.
 
That Stalin attacked Christianity was down to Communism and politicisedantitheism.  
#59
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@Best.Korea
So the Christian countries also have the best military?
Back then certainly, although possibly not the best advertisement for a supposed religion of peace.
#60
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@Best.Korea
From your link:

"The countries with the most people reporting no belief in any sort of spirit, god, or higher power are France (40%), Czech Republic (37%), Sweden (34%), Netherlands (30%), Estonia (29%), Germany (27%), Belgium (27%) and Slovenia (26%)."

Those are the percentages of atheists, not percentages of believers.
Those are percentages of the population, and they also cover spirituality and a belief in a higher power, my previous links related to a belief specifically in God with a capital G, which signifies the monotheistic God.