truth is not arbitrary

Author: n8nrgim

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Deb-8-a-bull
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@n8nrgim
What about according to the Cops ?  

In a court of law. 

No but you bring this up alot hey ? 
This killing others for no business thing. 
Nate. 

Could you ummm. 
Pop ya mom on the computer for a quick second pal. 
I promise to respect mom. 
Just put her on for a second please mate . 

zedvictor4
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@sadolite
As I stated previously, I'm not certain if truth and fact are synonymous.

An obvious example would be:

A. It's a fact that for Christians, that their God is the creator of the Universe

B. It's a fact that, how the Universe was created is unknown.

So does B, make A. any less a fact, and any less true.


Futher to that then:

Is A. Objective or subjective?

And given that both conclusions were a product of the same process:

Is B. Objective or subjective?


A truthful repetition of inaccurate data, is not necessarily an untruth.


Elliott
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@zedvictor4
Would be a statement or principle that is not necessarily always considered to be true.
No, it has to be considered as true but is a matter of personal perspective. For example to a devout Christian, God’s existence is an unquestionable truth but to an agnostic it is a position of uncertainty and therefore not a truth, and to an atheist it is a falsehood.

Existence is a fact........I think.
I would think so to, “I think therefore I am … I think.”

And time.

Well, we can take a word, a concept, and modify them accordingly.

So, time can still be a constant and also relative to our point of reference.

Or our point of reference relative to the inevitability/constant of time.

We can also similarly, propose the same of space.

Such is freedom of thought.

One doesn't have to be buggered by Albert Einstein.
I just realised, for anyone who may be confused,“buggered up” is a British colloquialism, it simply means “ruined” and is nothing to do with Einstein’s sexual preference
Elliott
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@ebuc
Incomplete at best aka less than comprehensively considerate of factors involved, ergo,  short changes our intellectual abilities.

I think about an occupied space something ---ex finger, toe, baseball etc--- with an occupied space nervous system, ergo, I exist, as an occupied space something, with access to Meta-space mind/intellect/concepts and ego....ebuc

I’m afraid you have lost me with that one.
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@Elliott
I’m afraid you have lost me with that one.
Start with first word, then second , third so and so on. Kinda of like follow the bouncing ball from the kids show kulka fran and Ollie

.." Kukla, Fran and Ollie is an early American television show using puppets. It was created for children, but was soon watched by more adults than children. It did not have a script and was entirely ad-libbed. It was broadcast from Chicago between October 13, 1947 and August 30, 1957"...

I can help you with each word. 123 abc, thats how easy comprehension can be. Sung to M Jackson tune

incomplete = not having all the necessary or appropriate parts.

"the records are patchy and incomplete"....insufficient...imperfect.....defective....partial....patchy.....sketchy.....fragmentary...fragmented....scrappy....bitty....lacking....wanting....not entire....not whole....not total....abridged
not full or finished......."the analysis remains incomplete"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Two primary kinds of truth:

1} relative --ex sky is blue--- and,

2} absolute --ex there exists five and only five, regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedrda of Universe



Elliott
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@ebuc
Two primary kinds of truth:

1} relative --ex sky is blue--- and,

2} absolute --ex there exists five and only five, regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedrda of Universe
That is a valid point regarding as to what constitutes a fact or a truth, as mathematics can produce an example of a fact or an indisputable truth.
Tarik
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@Reece101
Truth is limited by the veracity of data.
But data must be objective.
ebuc
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@Elliott
......indisputable truth.
Eternally inviolate everywhere and everywhen, within our finite { complete }, occupied { something } space { geodesic and sine-wave } Universe { the whole-sha-bang @ }
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@zedvictor4
The truth is always there subjectively no matter what caveats people  try to attach to it. Citing bad science weather you know it is or not is the same as a lie. Bad science is a lie. Millions have died and been ruined because of it.
sadolite
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Religion is no different than bad science  when religions tenants are proved wrong which brings us back full circle to truth being ignored. I have faith in neither. 
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Correction, the truth is always there "OBJECTIVLY"  no matter what caveats people  try to attach to it.
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@Sidewalker
So we can infer that truth depends on knowledge. The more we know, the closer we are to the truth.
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@Elliott
I am British and I do know that.

And for sure, we can create interchangeable words and meanings to fit variable situations.
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@sadolite
HaHa.

Freudian slip maybe.


Yep, it's mind games when all is said and done.

And science is science, and science will inevitably result in failed hypotheses. It's the nature of the exercise.

Though ignoring positive scientific outcomes, is all a part of the mind game too.


And what was it?

Truth is not arbitrary.
Oh yes.

Might as well say that truth is not a banana.

Elliott
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@zedvictor4
I am British and I do know that.
I did say for anyone who may be confused and this forum does seem to be predominantly American.

And for sure, we can create interchangeable words and meanings to fit variable situations.
Not as much fun though.

ebuc
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@zedvictor4
Yep, it's mind games when all is said and done.
Meta-space mind  { thought } game for sure, yet, the concepts via our words { information } have power to inflict action.

Phonetics lead to many differrent meanings for same symbolic pattern of letters, ergo, the need for contextual environment of which the word is used, to establish the meaning.

1} Relative truths { environmental circumstances } is complemented by 2} Meta-space absolute truth { physical laws and cosmic principles }.

Cant have one{ 1 } without the other { 2 }

We have physical { occupied space } information bits and Meta-space conceptual information bits.

We have philosophy in search of truth and  truth exists, regardless of our knowing the truth

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@ebuc
Some philosophy is good.

And some philosophy is not so good....The ramblings of the bourgeois hypocrite Mr Marx spring to mind.


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@Deb-8-a-bull
What about according to the Cops ?  

In a court of law. 

The one that tells the best sounding  truth, is the winner in a court room, Deb.

"In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines". Proverbs 18:17


Deb-8-a-bull
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Its scientifically proven that holding a bible in one hand and swearing to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth doesn't work at all.  


Melcharaz
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Jesus is the truth. He doesnt change.
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Structural statements, such as "If P is true, and Q is true, then P(Q) is true" as understood in proper context in English is probably objective, and everything that is true dependent on these structures, such as "Donald Trump was the US president", is relative.
Deb-8-a-bull
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People can die with these um " truth "  things  " in them " that has never been told right?
Yes 

I don't  know What am i trying to say. 

Imagine a person killing someone  and never telling anyone and dying. 
That went from one person knowing the truth to no one could possibly  know the truth but a truth 

I'm  still not sure what i am saying . 

There are cases where  only One person knows of a certain kind of truth right ? 
Yes. 
And they never tell anyone and then die. 
Thus making this thing the "truth " what ? 
 unattainable ?
Its not arbitrary.
Orrr
Hang on. 
That is arbitrary.  

The " truth " to, what happens when we die 
Or 
What was before the  universe or whatever the question is.   
These questions  are  a  diffrent kind of unanswerable questions  in a way as to ( not ever being able to know the truth ) like in the someone dying instance.  
 


Pass.
Deb-8-a-bull
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I could lie to three people about something and tell the truth about that something to two people. 
Orrrr

I could lie to someone about something . 
And only i know the truth. 
Arrr.
Hand on 
So This "truth"  thing can be ( whats the word ) Stretched as such. 
Leave a true piece out and or  add  a untrue bit in. 
You dont tell a untrue story with bits of truth .  Yes we do 
Ok then.

But we can " stretch " this truth thing hey ?

And we can guess the truth.
And can only guess it right or gues it wrong  
Deb-8-a-bull
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Oh i see what is happening here. 

When you say the words like  "  truth "  in a philosophy forum everyone instantly thinks of  (  hard questions )  
That have no ummm answers ( as of yet )  so to speak.

what i am wearing now ? 
The truth to something like that could ( only be known by people who can come see me )  orrrrrr if the person that seen me tells or photos a person that didn't see me.   

Hang on.
Im just confusing me self now
Deb-8-a-bull
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Let me guess 
You are all wondering  What i was wearing hey ? 
Well the truth is  ( nothing ) 


9 days later

FLRW
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@Deb-8-a-bull

 Truth Social?
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The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle say it is impossible to measure certain properties of a particle, such as its position and momentum, with arbitrary precision.  The closer you get to knowing one, the farther away you get from knowing the other. So in the concept of reality, and the absolutist view of truth, one can never be absolutely certain.   

I think it legitimately raises questions about the nature of observation and measurement itself, and the role of the observer in shaping the reality they observe. If someone is colour blind, is what they see the truth?  Their observational tools work different, then someone who is not.  And what about someone who is not colour blind, is what they see the truth?  Not compared to a creature with infrared vision.

Therefore that which is being observed may in fact not be true.

31 days later

Critical-Tim
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Truth is not an independent concept but rather requires context to have meaning. It is the coherence of one system or set of beliefs with another. No idea is true in and of itself, but rather truth is the bridge of correspondence between two ideas.

As Plato said in his allegory of the cave, we can only know truth through the shadows of reality that we perceive. Our understanding of truth is limited by our perception of the world around us.

However, some people generalize that truth is a fixed or static concept that can be universally applied. For example, they might claim that something is objectively true because it matches the world around us. They are ignorant of the fact that they are still using a correspondence of the idea with objective reality and that truth is the bridge between that concept and objective reality.

In reality, truth is not fixed, but rather a constantly evolving concept that is subject to change as we gain new insights and understandings about the world around us. As Nietzsche famously said, "There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths."

Another example is someone who claims that an idea is true because it matches their subjective experience. While it may be true for them, it is not a universal truth, but rather true because truth is the bridge of correspondence between the idea and their subjective experience.

As Kant argued, we can only know truth through our own subjective experience and our own mental representations of reality. Our understanding of truth is limited by our own perceptual biases and preconceptions.

However, this does not mean that truth is subjective or that there are no objective facts about the world around us. Rather, it means that our understanding of truth is limited by our own subjective experience and that we can only approach objective truth through the constant process of comparing and refining our ideas with the world around us.

In conclusion, truth is not a fixed or static concept, but rather a constantly evolving one that is subject to change as we gain new insights and understandings about the world around us. It is the coherence of one system or set of beliefs with another, and no idea is true in and of itself, but rather truth is the bridge of correspondence between two ideas. As Kierkegaard said, "Truth is subjectivity", but it is only through constant comparison and refinement that we can approach objective truth about the world around us.

References:
Plato's "Allegory of the Cave"
Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lie in a Nonmoral Sense"
Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason"
Kierkegaard's "Concluding Unscientific Postscript to the Philosophical Fragments"

Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" tells the story of prisoners who have been chained in a cave their whole lives, facing a wall where shadows of objects are projected. They believe these shadows are the only reality, until one prisoner is freed and sees the world outside the cave. This allegory highlights the importance of perspective and the limitations of our understanding of reality.

Similarly, Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lie in a Nonmoral Sense" challenges our notions of truth and reality. He argues that truth is a concept that humans have created to make sense of the world, and that our understanding of reality is always limited by our perspectives and our language.

Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" also deals with the limitations of our understanding of reality. He argues that our perceptions of the world are shaped by our own mental structures, and that we can never know things as they really are, independent of our perceptions.

Kierkegaard's "Concluding Unscientific Postscript to the Philosophical Fragments" offers a different perspective on truth. He argues that truth is not a matter of objective facts or universal principles, but rather a matter of subjective experience and personal commitment. According to Kierkegaard, we can only know the truth by living it, by taking a leap of faith into the unknown.

In light of these philosophical perspectives, we can understand that truth is not a fixed or universal concept, but rather a dynamic process of correspondence between different ideas and perspectives. No idea is true in itself, but rather truth emerges from the bridge of correspondence between different ideas.

For example, someone who claims that an idea is true because it matches the world around us may not realize that they are still using a correspondence of the idea with objective reality. They may generalize that truth is a matter of objective facts, but they do not acknowledge that they are still using the idea of truth in context. Similarly, someone who claims that a subjective experience is true may not realize that it is not a matter of being objective or subjective, but rather a matter of correspondence between the idea and their subjective experience.

In conclusion, understanding the nature of truth requires us to recognize the limitations of our perspectives and the dynamic process of correspondence between different ideas. By doing so, we can move beyond simplistic notions of truth and embrace a more nuanced and complex understanding of reality.