truth is not arbitrary

Author: n8nrgim

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#1
n8nrgim
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some people say truth is relative. well, relative is a relative word. but truth is not arbitrary. 

maybe there are exceptions to rules, but the rules and the exceptions are clear. killing others for no reason is bad. maybe there are situations where killing others is justifiable, but that doesn't mean killing isn't clearly wrong, in general. whether killing is justifiable isn't subject to just some duede's whims, it's not arbitrary. 

maybe i'm saying truth is objective, i dont know. i dont know what the basis for truth is, other than maybe a higher power or God. well, maybe an objective reality beyond God could exist, that is the basis for objective truth. i dont know if we mere humans can know what all the truths are, but that truth exists shouldn't be the issue. 

just some ramblings i had that i thought id see what folks thought. 
#2
Melcharaz
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life is balanced in such a way that truth can be what you decide for it to be. Even if reality opposes your own idea of what truth is.
objective truth is what governs all of  reality and the universe as we know it. However, we have the freedom to say and live "nope" or "thats wrong" according to our understandings. you might be surprised at how many people here deny objective truth. be prepared for opinions!
#3
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@n8nrgim
This is literally undebatable. To debate is to exchange arguments. Arguments have conclusions which are meant to be inferred as true if the premises are true.

If nothing is true then arguments don't exist.

If truth is not universal then exchanging arguments is pointless.

If anyone tells you that truth is subjective or arbitrary they're trying to avoid admitting they have no confidence in their beliefs or the way they came to them. If they really believed it, they would never have related assertions to another thinking being in the first place.
#4
Reece101
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@n8nrgim
Does truth exist without an observer? We are all subject to our biological, cognitive, technological capabilities. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t bother to strive for objective truth. But does it really exist without evidence?
#5
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@Melcharaz
However, we have the freedom to say and live "nope" or "thats wrong" according to our understandings.
But is it understanding? Or is it misunderstanding?
#6
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@Reece101
We are all subject to our biological, cognitive, technological capabilities.
And objectivity is subject to factual evidence, are you implying that truth’s subjective?
#7
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Truth may not be arbitrary or subjective but it can be ignored. Truth has no power over feelings.

#8
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A perfect example of why feelings trump the truth> A biological male says he is a woman so he is a woman. A patent fucking lie on every level. Yet feelings win over truth. A biological male who pretends to be a woman  is in fact a woman. I could give countless examples where truth doesn't matter. Truth is meaningless to feelings.

#9
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@Tarik
understandings is plural, it  could be full understanding, part understanding or misunderstanding. or nonunderstanding.
#10
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@sadolite
Either everything matters,

Or nothing matters.

One of these is true.

Therefore truth, is universally irrelevant in both contexts.

Though also relevant in narrower sub-contexts.

But, I'm not sure if facts and truth are synonymous.
#11
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Truth is objective, whatever reality is that is truth, however our perception of what is truth is probably subjective. Will we ever know what is the truth … maybe not.
#12
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@Tarik
And objectivity is subject to factual evidence, are you implying that truth’s subjective?
Objectivity doesn’t necessarily entail absolute truth, even though some treat it as such. less so subjectivity.
#13
Tarik
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@Melcharaz
understandings is plural, it  could be full understanding, part understanding or misunderstanding. or nonunderstanding.
I don’t understand that lol
#14
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@Reece101
Objectivity doesn’t necessarily entail absolute truth, even though some treat it as such.
Then what makes something objective?
#15
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@Tarik
An unbiased conclusion derived from fact(s), however limited those facts are. 
#16
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@Reece101
An unbiased conclusion derived from fact(s), however limited those facts are. 
The facts can’t be that limited if it’s enough to form an unbiased conclusion.
#17
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@Tarik
Do you know how much you don’t know? And when it comes down to it, we need to assume axioms to get to a conclusion in the first place.
#18
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@Elliott
Everything is real within it's own context, within the context of the Universe.

Does that mean everything is true.


Objective and subjective are just words coined to propose subtle differences in the understanding of data input..

I think therefore I am.

I am therefore I think.
#19
Elliott
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@zedvictor4
Everything is real within it's own context, within the context of the Universe.

Does that mean everything is true.


Objective and subjective are just words coined to propose subtle differences in the understanding of data input..

I think therefore I am.

I am therefore I think.
What is truth, to avoid equivocation, two basic definitions.

 1. A statement or principle that is generally considered to be true:

 2. That which exists as a fact:

 The first is down to perception and a good example would be “time.”Time was believed to be a constant; this was seen as a fact and one that conformed to our rational, common sense way of looking at things. Then Albert Einstein came along and buggered that up and we now see time as being relative to our point of reference, basically where we are. There are still plenty of people who don’t accept that, as to them it still seems irrational. 

 The second is that which exists as a fact but may be beyond our ability to perceive it.

 As you say:
“I think therefore I am.
 I am therefore I think.”
 
This is perhaps the only reality we are capable of perceiving to be a fact. For all we know we may exist as something akin to a self-aware computer program and all we perceive as existing is just part of that program.

 The problem with humans is we evolved to hunt animals and in doing so it seems to have boosted our intelligence to what we see as a very high level but it may not be sufficient for us to comprehend what is the truth of that which exists as a fact.

#20
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@n8nrgim
Two primary kinds of truth:

1} relative, and, ---ex the sky is blue--

2} absolute.  ---only five regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedra of Universe---

3} false narrative that can be mixture of the above two and lies that mislead and misdirect. See Trumpet --and his cult followers---  as the current king of the false narrative.


#21
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Truth is not arbitrary, bu it is a "relational" term, it relates facts to the conclusions drawn from those facts. The current climate has called into question the very notion of truth by turning claims to truth into little more than power plays.  When people claim that what they say is true, all they are really doing is claiming status for beliefs that advance their agenda.

A correspondence theory of truth is natural, but a correspondence theory of truth calls for representation, and there are many different ways to represent reality, none of which are absolute.  The very nature and use of the word "truth” implies that it is referential to a dynamic; it refers to a relationship between some sort of conception and a reality presumed to be objective, and the very nature of the word dynamic implies it is subject to change with time, place, and progress.  That certainly raises the question as to whether absolute truth is even possible.

Truth lies in a relation between concepts and reality, and the nature of that relation depends on the concepts available, and on the extent to which reality can be depicted accurately in such concepts. It is possible that human language is inadequate to provide a comprehensive and fully adequate description of reality.  Why should the world fit our concepts exactly?  Concepts divide up the world, classify it, and systematize it in specific ways, but our language may not be able to state precisely the one and only way in which reality objectively exists.

The question becomes whether correspondence between thought and reality is even achievable since we are unable to step outside of our mind to compare our thoughts with objective reality.



#22
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@Reece101
And when it comes down to it, we need to assume axioms to get to a conclusion in the first place.
Do we? Can’t we just look at the empirical evidence?
#23
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@zedvictor4
"Either everything matters, Or nothing matters, One of these is true."


 Again, your feelings dictate if truth matters.

#24
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@Elliott
As you say:“I think therefore I am. I am therefore I think.”
Incomplete at best aka less than comprehensively considerate of factors involved, ergo,  short changes our intellectual abilities.

I think about an occupied space something ---ex finger, toe, baseball etc--- with an occupied space nervous system, ergo, I exist, as an occupied space something, with access to Meta-space mind/intellect/concepts and ego....ebuc

#25
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@Tarik
Do we? Can’t we just look at the empirical evidence?
If you want to talk about science, scientists acknowledge the limitations within their studies.
#26
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@sadolite
Ha Ha.

It's a circular argument.

Is truth subjective or objective.


Again, I would propose that the nature of the process dictates that everything is subjective.

And therefore, open to interpretation.

Which is probably what you were saying.


Have a nice day.
#27
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@Elliott
1. A statement or principle that is generally considered to be true.
Would be a statement or principle that is not necessarily always considered to be true.


2. That which exists as fact.
Existence is a fact........I think.



And time.

Well, we can take a word, a concept, and modify them accordingly.

So, time can still be a constant and also relative to our point of reference.

Or our point of reference relative to the inevitability/constant of time.

We can also similarly, propose the same of space.

Such is freedom of thought.

One doesn't have to be buggered by Albert Einstein.

#28
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@Reece101
If you want to talk about science
Is truth limited to just science?
#29
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@Tarik
Truth is limited by the veracity of data.
Do you have a point to these questions?
#30
sadolite
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@zedvictor4
No, I am saying truth is absolutely objective but is often ignored to pacify and appease feelings and agendas. The truth is knowingly and willfully ignored.