Their Pulling the Wool Over Our Eyes.

Author: YouFound_Lxam

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Greyparrot
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@Athias
Seems like every constitutional case brought to the Supreme Court is a case about an abused minority that Congress tried to shaft.

Nonetheless, the Constitution isn't a catch-all, and Congress has found multiple ways around it since the country was founded.

And the Constitution is only as valid as the integrity of the Supreme Court. Cases like this one show just how weak our constitution really is.
Double_R
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@YouFound_Lxam
Really?? You really think Republicans are the ones who pose a bigger threat to misinformation.
I thought you were just misinformed, not cut off from everything. 
I gave you a specific example and left the door wide open to continue this discussion in greater detail. But if “Really???” is all you have to offer in response you really need to think about whether I’m really the one who is being manipulated.

No, it should be taught in school, far before most people develop an interest in politics with the hope that they use the lessons they learn to guide them as they decide what they stand for.
It should, but where are the teachers getting there information?
From books. It goes back to this thing we call the enlightenment. Please google it if you are unfamiliar.

Who is the one promoting critical race theory in grade school?
No one, it’s not being taught in grade schools anywhere. This is a made up issue concocted entirely within the minds of paranoid right wingers.

Politics shouldn't be taught in school. Learning the basic things, like Math, Science, English and all the core learning skills should be taught in grade school. Political bias should not be in school.
That’s the entire point of critical thinking and media literacy - to teach one to decipher through the political spin.

The fact that you heard me talk about these two subjects and immediately heard “politics” is a perfect demonstration of the point I just made.

If all you really care about is preserving your cherished beliefs then anything which challenges it will immediately be labeled as political and vilified as such. Reality be dammed.

It's not nonsense. Have any proof that it is? No, your only proof is that some angry people said it was, and we are supposed to believe them.
How are you this misinformed?
The projection is quite remarkable.

If all you understand is how to listen to others then I can understand how difficult it must be to imagine someone being able to listen to multiple points of views and reach their own conclusions, including when one of those points of views is clearly built on manipulative tactics.

I already kick started that conversation with the Tucker Carlson example. You’re welcomed to engage in it if you actually want to discuss it as opposed to just hurling projectiles of self perceived superiority.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Nope,  Government is the job of cleverer people.

You vote for them and they get on with the job.

That's you, as in the People of the United States of America.


And if it's not the folks you were taught to vote for, then you get a bit miffed for a few years.

Same old, Same old.


YouFound_Lxam
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@Double_R
I gave you a specific example and left the door wide open to continue this discussion in greater detail. But if “Really???” is all you have to offer in response you really need to think about whether I’m really the one who is being manipulated.
Fine, let's destroy your argument then. I wanted to leave you with some type of win, but oh well:

From books. It goes back to this thing we call the enlightenment. Please google it if you are unfamiliar.
Yes. Books that come from where? Oh that's right, the government.

No one, it’s not being taught in grade schools anywhere. This is a made up issue concocted entirely within the minds of paranoid right wingers.
Hate to break it to you, but:

That’s the entire point of critical thinking and media literacy - to teach one to decipher through the political spin.
It is created to teach them the basics of learning and living, so that they may make their own opinions, and decisions based off of that knowledge.

The fact that you heard me talk about these two subjects and immediately heard “politics” is a perfect demonstration of the point I just made.
But you did bring up politics........
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@YouFound_Lxam
No one, it’s not being taught in grade schools anywhere. This is a made up issue concocted entirely within the minds of paranoid right wingers.
Hate to break it to you, but:
Did you read this article? Grade school isn't in it. It's an article that reviews the data returned in a survey of 18 - 20 year olds, and it doesn't say "CRT is being taught." From the article:

To answer this and other related questions, we commissioned a study on a nationally representative sample of 1,505 18- to 20-year-old Americans—a demographic that has yet to graduate from, or only recently graduated from, high school.
Not grade schools. 

We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory.
So now it's not just talking about curriculum: "heard from adults" is distinct here from "taught in class". The entire paragraph that follows this one uses the phrase "XX% report being taught OR HEARING." And it's not limited to CRT, either. Among the questions, "America was built on stolen land," which I find interesting, as this could theoretically include the respondent's interpretation that there were people here before there was America, and the people that made America took the land from them in one way or another. So if you recognize that native Americans were here when European settlers first arrived, you might think the land was stolen, without having a teacher phrase it this way in the curriculum. Here's another portion I'd think requires more interrogation:

 As shown in the chart below, 68 percent responded that they either were not taught about opposing arguments or were taught that there are no “respectable” opposing arguments
See the word "respectable" there? That word is an adjective, and open to the individual interpretation, and it does not necessarily mean that the teacher SAID that there are "no respectable arguments," because as it's phrased, the student is free to make their own determination on the "respectability" of any specific argument. In other words, it doesn't say "Some people think that black people are just inherently inferior at XYZ and that's why things are the way they are, and that's not a respectable argument." It leaves open the possibility that the student is taught EVERYTHING before the comma, and independently CONCLUDES the italicized, and therefore marks the survey in a certain way. The article says  "As shown in the chart below, 68 percent responded that they either were not taught about opposing arguments or were taught that there are no “respectable” opposing arguments", when I could just as easily interpret the very same data as presented as "73% were taught that there ARE opposing arguments." 

Polls are super easy to 'rig' in such a way that you lean your results in a certain way. This is why media literacy is important, and not just "google search and post a link to a story that you didn't read or understand." CRT is not being taught in elementary schools. Its concepts may show up in pre-college public high schools, but that isn't a course on CRT. 


YouFound_Lxam
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@ludofl3x
So now it's not just talking about curriculum: "heard from adults" is distinct here from "taught in class". The entire paragraph that follows this one uses the phrase "XX% report being taught OR HEARING." And it's not limited to CRT, either. Among the questions, "America was built on stolen land," which I find interesting, as this could theoretically include the respondent's interpretation that there were people here before there was America, and the people that made America took the land from them in one way or another. So if you recognize that native Americans were here when European settlers first arrived, you might think the land was stolen, without having a teacher phrase it this way in the curriculum. Here's another portion I'd think requires more interrogation:
The way teachers phrase things are very important. It might not be in the curriculum, but the same goes for the LGBTQ+ agenda.

That is being taught in grade school, yet it's not in the curriculum.



ludofl3x
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@YouFound_Lxam
That is being taught in grade school, yet it's not in the curriculum.
You sound paranoid.

Please provide the substantiation, but this time please make sure it applies to GRADE SCHOOL. 

And this time read the article. I'm not going to do your homework again. 
Greyparrot
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@YouFound_Lxam
What state do you live in? I could probably find some DEI  information for your state for you.
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@ludofl3x
You sound paranoid.

Please provide the substantiation, but this time please make sure it applies to GRADE SCHOOL. 

And this time read the article. I'm not going to do your homework again. 
"SchoolWorks teams have already used the SQC’s new indicator in visits at schools for several projects, including Detroit Children’s FundDenver Public Schools, and Compass Charter School (Brooklyn, NY). School leaders have expressed gratitude for the focus and feedback on diversity, equity, and inclusion; but are often still in the beginning stages of shaping their visions and implementation plans. When schools begin prioritizing DEI, early efforts often involve one or more of the following:"

There ya go
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@YouFound_Lxam
Let's refresh: you said in #36 that CRT is "being taught in grade school, yet it's not in the curriculum."

"THere ya go?" This article, from 2018, doesn't mention CRT at all. Is it "diversity" and "inclusion" you're now opposing, which isn't CRT in any way? Shifted goalposts, the sign of a very poorly thought out position. Even the part you posted is confusing, it in no way supports your argument. Or, your former argument, as you appear to have abandoned it. Do you even know if this article is still valid? This is what's called "academic rigor," and you're not using very much of it. It's very different from "google and post the first link you find." You wouldn't be the first 15 or 16 year old not to use it when you should, but if you're going to pose as some sort of intellectual, at least try the legwork. Here's the entire text of the article, please quote specifically where CRT is mentioned or where you think it is implied. 

How to Foster a Strong DEI School Culture
Schools have always been interested in fostering diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), but the work has taken on renewed meaning as student populations grow increasingly diverse in every way—in relation to race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, language, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, special needs, and more. Research shows that children and adults alike thrive in diverse, equitable environments. But how do educators foster inclusivity successfully?  And where do schools begin?
Setting Standards
When conducting quality reviews, SchoolWorks measures the effectiveness of each organization’s current systems against SchoolWorks School Quality Criteria (SQC) – a research-based set of standards describing effective practices linked to positive student outcomes.  Because research demonstrates that sound DEI policies, practices, and resources correlate with effective teaching and learning environments, SchoolWorks has revised this set of standards to add a research-based indicator focused specifically on DEI:
Dimension 2.2 – Students’ Learning Culture: Does the school foster a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion?
The indicator consists of the following criteria:
  • Criterion 2.2.1: Diversity, equity, and inclusion are embedded in the school’s mission, philosophy, and core values.
  • Criterion 2.2.2: The school’s leadership and staff are engaged, supported, and involved in a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
  • Criterion 2.2.3: The school’s pedagogy and data systems foster a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
  • Criterion 2.2.4: Students encounter and are involved in a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
  • Criterion 2.2.5: The school facilitates the participation of families, parents, and community members in a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
  • Criterion 2.2.6: The organization’s leadership and institutional supports are guided by strong principles of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Because it’s human nature to focus more on outcomes that are measured rather than outcomes that aren’t, this new indicator will help maintain a steady focus on DEI; clarify the elements of a school culture that fosters DEI; and encourage all schools to adopt effective practices.
Starting The Work
SchoolWorks teams have already used the SQC’s new indicator in visits at schools for several projects, including Detroit Children’s FundDenver Public Schools, and Compass Charter School (Brooklyn, NY). School leaders have expressed gratitude for the focus and feedback on diversity, equity, and inclusion; but are often still in the beginning stages of shaping their visions and implementation plans. When schools begin prioritizing DEI, early efforts often involve one or more of the following:
  • Helping students learn about themselves and various aspects of their identities.
  • Encouraging students to learn about their classmates and/or communities.
  • Building strategic relationships among students and staff.
  • Analyzing relevant data such as discipline outcomes for various racial groups.
  • Providing staff development on topics such as privilege, implicit bias, and reactions in times of stress.
  • Selecting curricular texts that reflect students’ backgrounds.
These are all good places to start, but continuing the work requires deeper and broader efforts.
The SQC can serve as a helpful guide for schools in directing their work. Criterion 2.2.1 and 2.2.2 are particularly good places to start because—as when implementing any program in a school—you must first define the vision for DEI at your school and engage leaders and staff before working to ensure that students experience this culture.
Learning Alongside One Another
SchoolWorks knows firsthand that this is difficult work. That’s because we continually work to make our own corporate culture more diverse, equitable, and inclusive. Our DEI Committee meets regularly to discuss relevant professional development; and operationally, we work to increase the diversity of our school review teams to better reflect the student populations of the schools we serve. In the coming months and years, we will continue to prioritize this vital work and learn alongside schools who are doing so.
Seeking Help
One of the best ways to get an honest assessment of your school’s culture—including the extent to which your school’s culture fosters DEI—is to schedule a SchoolWorks School Quality Review. During a review, the SchoolWorks team examines multiple sources of evidence in order to understand your school’s performance in relation to the SQC’s four domains: Instruction, Students’ Opportunities to Learn, Educators’ Opportunities to Learn, and Leadership and Governance. At the end of the review, the SchoolWorks team facilitates an action-planning meeting with school leaders and key stakeholders so you can celebrate strengths and develop a prioritized improvement plan, which may involve ways to strengthen your school’s culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Find out more about SchoolWorks School Quality Reviews.
What a hellscape this document describes!!! THE HORRORS!
Greyparrot
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@YouFound_Lxam
DEI is CRT because the only diversity allowed is by skin color and not of thought.
You would never see a DEI program in any school stating a goal to include DONALD TRUMP and MAGA in the classroom.

Checkmate. Set and Match.
ludofl3x
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@Greyparrot
DEI is CRT because the only diversity allowed is by skin color and not of thought.
You would never see a DEI program in any school stating a goal to include DONALD TRUMP and MAGA in the classroom.

Checkmate. Set and Match.
How can you tell it's not "diversity of thought"? It's specifically designed to be inclusive. Please propose how you want "Donald Trump and MAGA in the classroom." Wouldn't they be part of American history? The document is largely for grade schools, remember.
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@ludofl3x
A whole lot of words to admit you can't find a DEI program with those stated goals.
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@Greyparrot
A whole lot of words to admit you can't find a DEI program with those stated goals.
You're asking about what, a school curriculum that "includes MAGA"? That's what I took from it, which is why I asked in what way you'd like them included. I think you're just in one of your hot flashes or whatever, you're crabby. 
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@ludofl3x
Even more words to admit it again. :)
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@YouFound_Lxam
Nope, the government is led by the people, but it isn't the people. 
So if you were elected to Congress, lol, you would no longer be one of the people?

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So if you were elected to Congress, lol, you would no longer be one of the people?
I thought you were informed on how America works.

You would still be a U.S. citizen and one of the people, but your role would be to make decisions based off of voting. You would be representing a group of people, who chose a certain thing (that usually you agree with) and you argue that policy, or anything else to be put into place. 

You do not make up your own policies based off of your own personal bias, and no votes to base off of.  

It's like being a judge. You don't get to have the full say, because a jury decides that. But you do have power and are still part of the court system. 
Same with being a congressman/woman. 
Double_R
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@YouFound_Lxam
Fine, let's destroy your argument then. I wanted to leave you with some type of win, but oh well:
If you want to destroy my argument you’re going to need to type some words. That’s how productive conversation works.

Just to humor you I clicked on the link, it’s a 55 min Ben Shapiro show segment. I watched the first 1:27 before I already got to the first nonsense point and turned it off. The argument he presents is a Lawrence O’Donnell clip where Lawrence says something and then corrects it the next day.

This doesn’t prove your point, if anything it shows the exact opposite. Lawrence was just talking off the cuff and in so doing said something that he later explained ‘didn’t go through the networks vigorous fact checking process’. In other words, MSNBC does not stand by his statement because Lawrence didn’t prove to the network that what he said is factual. That’s not how a propaganda outlet intent on spreading misinformation operates.

This is a tired old tactic. News networks like MSNBC operate 24/7. Of course they are going to get things wrong from time to time, every human being on earth does. If you want to argue that a network is “spreading misinformation” you need to provide examples of where they did so knowingly or provide reliable data. I’m willing to bet Ben Shapiro knows this, but he also understands that people like you are easily manipulable so you’ll just buy into his shotgun fallacy hook line and sinker.

I could of course be wrong, maybe he did go on to explain all of this. Don’t know, don’t care enough to watch the next 53 minutes. If Ben were here to discuss the issue with I’d watch it, but he isn’t here. You are. So if you want to have a conversation on this topic feel free to present words that you typed so we can have a dialog.

Yes. Books that come from where? Oh that's right, the government.
The government doesn’t publish books, and much of the literature on the subject is centuries old.

So the argument here is that the basic concepts CRT is founded on are “being taught” in class, and they gathered data on this by asking students of they’ve heard this concept and from where.

First off, no where in this article do they find that the material students are “being taught” is part of any curriculum anywhere. That’s already remarkable, because to claim a subject is being taught in schools requires that at bare minimum.

Essentially, if a teacher tells the class their opinion on any of these questions, that would qualify as “being taught”.  But what is most remarkable about this entire study is that it took place from August 18th-23rd 2022. In other words, they asked students if they heard about or had teachers tell them their opinion about an issue which republicans catapulted to the forefront of the national dialog. An issue that is literally vilifying teachers nationwide.

Teachers and students are going to talk about what’s going on in the world. In 2022 CRT was everywhere, so of course teachers are going to comment on it. That doesn’t mean CRT is “being taught” in classrooms.

So when you advocate for banning CRT in classrooms, a subject that isn’t in any curriculum anywhere, what you’re actually advocating for is for teachers to not be allowed to talk about race. That is amazingly stupid and remarkably hypocritical coming from the “free speech” crowd.

The fact that you heard me talk about these two subjects and immediately heard “politics” is a perfect demonstration of the point I just made.
But you did bring up politics........
I brought up two subjects and how those two subjects would likely impact politics. You then characterized them as political subjects.
YouFound_Lxam
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@Double_R
I could of course be wrong, maybe he did go on to explain all of this. Don’t know, don’t care enough to watch the next 53 minutes. If Ben were here to discuss the issue with I’d watch it, but he isn’t here. You are. So if you want to have a conversation on this topic feel free to present words that you typed so we can have a dialog.
Thats on you then. I watch and read all information given to me for evidence and it helps with an argument. 


So the argument here is that the basic concepts CRT is founded on are “being taught” in class, and they gathered data on this by asking students of they’ve heard this concept and from where.

First off, no where in this article do they find that the material students are “being taught” is part of any curriculum anywhere. That’s already remarkable, because to claim a subject is being taught in schools requires that at bare minimum.

Essentially, if a teacher tells the class their opinion on any of these questions, that would qualify as “being taught”.  But what is most remarkable about this entire study is that it took place from August 18th-23rd 2022. In other words, they asked students if they heard about or had teachers tell them their opinion about an issue which republicans catapulted to the forefront of the national dialog. An issue that is literally vilifying teachers nationwide.

Teachers and students are going to talk about what’s going on in the world. In 2022 CRT was everywhere, so of course teachers are going to comment on it. That doesn’t mean CRT is “being taught” in classrooms.

So when you advocate for banning CRT in classrooms, a subject that isn’t in any curriculum anywhere, what you’re actually advocating for is for teachers to not be allowed to talk about race. That is amazingly stupid and remarkably hypocritical coming from the “free speech” crowd.
Again, just because it is not in the curriculum, doesn't mean that it isn't being taught to kids, who are very impressionable. 

I brought up two subjects and how those two subjects would likely impact politics. You then characterized them as political subjects.
Yes.......I did........because you brought up politics.......
IwantRooseveltagain
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@YouFound_Lxam
but your role would be to make decisions based off of voting.
people do NOT get to vote on individual issues. A Representative can listen to peoples opinions and input but the decision is for the rep and, let’s face it, the people who fund his campaign.

Your comparison of a Congressman to a judge is faulty. A judge tells the jury what the law is and ensures that the lawyers present the case within the guidelines of the law.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Really?? You really think Republicans are the ones who pose a bigger threat to misinformation.
Trump was documented by the New York Times as lying over 30,000 times while in office. You can Google it kid, and read all 30,000+

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Yes, they must have also included, when he asked for tea, but actually meant coffee too.

Double_R
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@YouFound_Lxam
Thats on you then. I watch and read all information given to me for evidence and it helps with an argument. 
So if I post an hour long video for you despite not even bothering to type any words to explain what it is I’m trying to argue, you’re just going to watch the whole thing without question?

If you have that much time in your hands and decide that the best way to spend it is to sit around watching what someone else tells you to watch… that’s on you. I came here for a dialog with people who might have something to offer, if I wanted to sit around watching YouTube videos I’d be on YouTube.

Again, just because it is not in the curriculum, doesn't mean that it isn't being taught to kids, who are very impressionable.
Words and phrases have actual meaning.

CRT has an actual meaning.

“Subject X is being taught in schools” has an actual meaning.

When you assert something, but the something you are ultimately talking about does not add up to the meaning of the phrase you used to convey your original assertion, that’s being intellectually dishonest.

If it’s not in the curriculum, it’s not “being taught in schools”.

What you are talking about is a subject that often comes up in classrooms (because quite literally everyone in the country is taking about this) and the teachers share their opinions. But because you don’t like their opinions, you have decided to advocate for a world where educators are now barred from sharing their opinions.

That isn’t just pathetic on its own, it’s the complete opposite of what you pretend to believe with regards to free speech.

Don’t ever again argue that there’s a problem of free speech in America, because you and people just like you are its biggest offender.

Yes.......I did........because you brought up politics.......
Once again, critical thinking and media literacy are not political subjects. If you do not  understand that then you are not being serious.
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@Double_R
So if I post an hour long video for you despite not even bothering to type any words to explain what it is I’m trying to argue, you’re just going to watch the whole thing without question?
Yes. As long as you claim something as well. I claim stuff as well, as provide evidence. 

Words and phrases have actual meaning.

CRT has an actual meaning.

“Subject X is being taught in schools” has an actual meaning.

When you assert something, but the something you are ultimately talking about does not add up to the meaning of the phrase you used to convey your original assertion, that’s being intellectually dishonest.

If it’s not in the curriculum, it’s not “being taught in schools”.

What you are talking about is a subject that often comes up in classrooms (because quite literally everyone in the country is taking about this) and the teachers share their opinions. But because you don’t like their opinions, you have decided to advocate for a world where educators are now barred from sharing their opinions.

That isn’t just pathetic on its own, it’s the complete opposite of what you pretend to believe with regards to free speech.

Don’t ever again argue that there’s a problem of free speech in America, because you and people just like you are its biggest offender.

You do know, that saying "Don't ever again argue that there's a problem of free speech" is telling someone not to say something............just sayin.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Yes. As long as you claim something as well. I claim stuff as well, as provide evidence. 
You didn’t make a claim here, and more importantly the link you shared wasn’t to evidence of anything, it was an hour long argument made by someone else because you apparently couldn’t be bothered to make your own. That’s fine, you don’t have to. But if you aren’t going to make your own argument then I have no obligation to take your point seriously.

You do know, that saying "Don't ever again argue that there's a problem of free speech" is telling someone not to say something............just sayin.
Well I’m not the government, so it’s ok.

It was an obvious colloquialism, you can of course argue whatever you want, but to support telling teachers that they’re essentially not allowed to talk to their students about race while purporting to be all about free speech is breathtakingly hypocritical.