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@secularmerlin
Well that's good.
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@Plisken
Do you need physical evidence for free will?
Only if I am to accept that we have freewill.
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@secularmerlin
You may, or may not be held accountable by your fellow humans. What does accountable mean to you?
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@secularmerlin
You don't accept you have free will, yet you feel you do. Is that correct?
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@Plisken
That I will be judged based upon my actions. What does it mean to you?
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@janesix
At the very least I experience the post hoc self justifications for my actions.
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@secularmerlin
Ok. I don't believe you don't FEEL like you have free will.
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@janesix
How would freewill feel differently than a post hoc self justification for my actions from my perspective?
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@secularmerlin
It means accounting for the consequence of your actions that you are responsible, not judgement, or the determination of responsibility in itself.
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@Plisken
What is the difference in practical terms?
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@secularmerlin
I'm not sure what you mean. One is a feeling,an emotion, the other is an intellectualization. A thought.
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@secularmerlin
The difference between judgement and holding yourself accountable is the difference between recognizing you hurt someone's feelings, and thinking about what you have done, apologizing to let them know you understand what is wrong, and maybe making some changes, acting until you have made everything right.
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@janesix
That doesn't answer how one would feel different from the other from my perspective. Thoughts are often accompanied by feelings and vice versa.
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@Plisken
Did I somehow give the impression that I was not one of the people that will hold me accountable? That I am incapable of judging myself? What does that have to so with freewill or the lack thereof?
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@secularmerlin
what is the point of feelings at all if there is no free will?
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@janesix
They provoke particular behaviors such as cooperation which contribute to species survival.
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@secularmerlin
How can a feeling provoke a behavior if the organism has no choice in the matter?
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@secularmerlin
Don't you limit yourself to physical evidence to accept feelings?
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@janesix
What does choice have to do with provocation? Indeed provocation would be the cause in the cause and effect in this case.
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@Plisken
I'm not sure what you mean. I experience "feelings" whatever they actually are and I presume you do as well ased on the fact that we are similar beinhs though I cannot actually know if you do.
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@secularmerlin
You can't be "provoked" into doing anything if there are no free will choices.
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@janesix
Would you prefer the word compelled? That is perhaps closer to my actual meaning anyway. We are compelled to.certain behaviors by our feelings.
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@secularmerlin
still implies that there is a choice to be made. If there were no free will, we would all be robots. no need for thinking and feeling.
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@janesix
An adaptation need only make an organism more survivable than pure random chance to be passed on more often than not. Whatever thinking and feeling are they clearly contribute to human survival. Also why couldn't a robot be programmed to think and feel if it were advanced enough to be?
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@secularmerlin
why does an organism "need" to survive? That implies an impetus of some kind.
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@secularmerlin
Because robotic action is computed, it wouldn't be a robot.
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@janesix
Why would an impetus necessitate freewill? Does a sea star have freewill? It does seem to have the impetus to survive and must decide (for lack of a better word) what to do next. It also lacks a brain.
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@Plisken
And human action isn't computed?
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@secularmerlin
Yes all living organisms have free will. some may not realize it though. I don't think it requires a brain.
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@janesix
Can you give me an example of starfish freewill?