What I don’t understand about pro life republicans.

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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Republican logic:
Abortion=murder.
Murder=Death sentence

Let’s say they oppose the death penalty.  Then it is:

Abortion=murder.
Murder=Lifetime in jail

Therefore, it would seem that if you really want abortion to be classified as murder, that means the death penalty of life in jail for those that are responsible, from the woman to the man that got her pregnant.

They then say, “We only wish to prosecute the performer of the abortion to this degree.”

To which I would say, “If these were the laws, no abortionist would perform abortions, which means the pregnant woman would have to fill the role.  So the same punishment would have to apply for women that perform their own abortions.

I’m not advocating this position.  I’m just merely stating it’s logical conclusions.

#2
Barney
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@TheUnderdog
Let's not forget that to some avoiding pregnancy to begin with equals abortion.

Have you read the results of CAH's poll? 25% of them surveyed believe the mother literally avoiding dying should be illegal. https://abortionpoll.cardsagainsthumanity.com/
#3
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@Barney
You don't think that is a hyperbolic take on the issue?
#4
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@Greyparrot
@Barney
That garbage-tier article by the Cards Against Humanity people is the single most pathetic attempt at fearmongering I’ve ever seen.
#5
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@Mharman
It's like the assumption is that pregnancy is a terminal illness for the mother in most cases (it isn't)

And the assumption that the people that vote for abortion laws don't know anything about pregnancy. (most people that don't know also don't care enough to vote)
#6
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@Greyparrot
There are some others, but yeah.

They probably won’t even notice their exaggerations here. I think the fearmongering here isn’t because they have malicious intent; I think it’s because they’re actually scared shitless.

The whole thing reads like it was written by someone who hates millennial stereotypes, yet embodies all of them.
#7
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@Barney
In nature, it is ultimately optimal if it is 1 offspring only, not a litter, for a mother to sacrifice for the single offspring, it is not a gain but at least gives more time for the species to thrive vs perish assuming the offspring is taken care of or can survive.

I am not saying this makes it correct, I am saying there is a logic, due to future odds of the being going on to defend the species and/or reproduce.
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#8
TheUnderdog
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@Greyparrot
@Barney
@Mharman
Address the argument.  If one really believes abortion to be murder, it has to be tried as such.  If you disagree with trying abortion as murder, then don’t call it murder.
#9
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@Greyparrot
@Mharman
There's a presentation of one data point I find highly misleading (and calling people assholes isn't the way to change minds), but the data itself and data driven conclusions check out.

Sure, I'd love a state wide survey in each one of those, but 3000 is enough to see major problems. That anyone believes it's not rape if you get her pregnant, says so much sad about the poor state of education in this country.
#10
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That anyone believes it's not rape if you get her pregnant,
Now this is beyond hyperbole. You really need a constructive hobby dude. Fanfiction like this isn't.
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#11
TheUnderdog
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@Barney
Let's not forget that to some avoiding pregnancy to begin with equals abortion.
It depends.  If you avoid pregnancy with abstinence or just condoms, then it’s not an abortion.  But birth control pills and IUDs sometimes cause a zygote to die (which pro lifers argue are human beings worthy of protection).  In other words, a pro life woman that uses IUDs or birth control pills is a hypocrite or ignorant.
#12
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@TheUnderdog
Mercy is morally acceptable as well.

I definitely do support the death penalty for murder, on average. However, this isn't your average case.

Unfortunately, society has been spoon-fed propaganda about how a fetus is "just a clump of cells" and how it's only "their body, their choice." There is absolutely a case to be made that those who were manipulated by that kind of fearmongering all their lives should have reduced consequences compared to what true justice would demand. That being said, I'm not afraid of it being a case-by-case basis, with preference given to mercy if there is ever a gray line. There are some, men and women alike, who are fully aware of what they're doing, and they have no excuse.

As for cases when the mother's life is in danger, I think abortion is acceptable, but ONLY if it can be proven that a) she is guaranteed to die if the pregnancy continues, there is no procedure that can save both, or b) The child is guaranteed to die anyway (again with the requirement that no procedure can save them), and the child's presence continues to put the mother's health at serious risk. In either case, there would need to be multiple doctors signing off on it. All cases should be reviewed by hospital leadership afterward.

As a side note, I hope that our technology advances to the point where no abortion is ever necessary to save a life. Once we get there, we can drop the above dilemma.
#13
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@Greyparrot
That anyone believes it's not rape if you get her pregnant,
Now this is beyond hyperbole. You really need a constructive hobby dude. Fanfiction like this isn't.
We've discussed this before, and I've shown as much as the state of Missouri exists, this is an actual belief held by some ultra conservatives, to include claimed 'scientists.' And from the data set we were just looking at, please review question 36.

You're welcome to challenge me to a debate over this if you actually think I'm inventing it.

...

On a similar note, I strongly dislike antifa. I however don't claim you're writing fan-fic when you say they exist, no matter how much I would prefer if they did not.
#14
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@Barney
That's not the issue of your hyperbole.

Stating that education is bad in America because a few people (or as you said any one person) out of millions have insane ideas doesn't prove any actual noticeable societal trend.

Focusing on hyperbolic outliers like the KKK, for example, which have 3000 members in a population of over 300 million is exactly that. Hyperbole.

 Antifa was a group obsessed with hyperbolic fanfictional narratives. The damage they caused to the country wasn't fiction, sadly.
#15
Public-Choice
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@TheUnderdog
Well, idk about all Republicans, but here is my view (I am not Republican but am pro life)

I think that the mother and the doctor are both responsible. I believe life in prison for both is applicable to both of them. And if the man is complicit in this, then he gets life in prison too.

I think murdering innocent people is wrong. The only exceptions I am personally willing to debate are if the mother is literally in the process of giving birth and the baby is killing her or if the baby is already dead inside of her. In those instances I could see an abortion being legal. The third instance is if the baby is killing the mother by being developed and there is no other known western medical or alternative medical alternative that doesn't involve invoking demons or other such stuff. All of these are, obviously, assuming non-viability. If it is viable then it must be incubated.

If it isn't one of those three categories, then I don't support abortion and am for imprisoning all parties involved. If the man, however, does not want the abortion and argues to save his kid's life, then he is not complicit and therefore is not punished. Same for a woman if her husband forces her to. She is free from punishment because she was forced against her will to commit an abortion.

I know this is a VERY different viewpoint from most pro-lifers, but I think it is the most logical. 

It is a living human being. So murdering it should not be a legitimate discussion. The other stuff I said is simply logical outflows of the same idea but in reverse (the fetus murdering the mother), so it should be stopped from doing so.
#16
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@TheUnderdog
whoever kills the babys ought get killed by the state. abortionist, mother, if you plunge sissors into a baby dead you should die
#17
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@Greyparrot
That's not the issue of your hyperbole.
~25% of men surveyed within those states have that magical belief. So yes, I think basic education ought to be better given that it utterly failed such a large proportion. If you have a different theory for why they're so mentally exceptional, please do share it.
#18
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@TheUnderdog
birth control pills and IUDs sometimes cause a zygote to die
These are choices and actions against becoming pregnant to begin with. That in rare cases a fertilization still occurs but the egg then fails at implantation, does not mean the mother has actively destroyed a fertilized egg. Rather, it is passed out of the body harmlessly. IMO it's not an abortion, because no pregnancy was ended, merely one did not begin.
#19
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@TheUnderdog
And therefore, let's not also forget that most of the 25% are selectively moral and hypocritical.

And If Republicans want to win votes, they've got to appeal to the wider populace.
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#20
TheUnderdog
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@Barney
That in rare cases a fertilization still occurs but the egg then fails at implantation, does not mean the mother has actively destroyed a fertilized egg. Rather, it is passed out of the body harmlessly.
The argument that from pro lifers is causing a fertilized egg to die is akin to killing a human being, since they argue that zygotes are human beings.
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#21
TheUnderdog
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@Vici
I can respect the honesty even if I don’t think it’s pragmatic.
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#22
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@Public-Choice
I can respect your opinion for being consistent.  But to play Devils advocate, 1 in 6 women got an abortion.  You would be talking about jailing tens of millions of people.

That’s why I think the penalty for abortion should be 3 weeks of hard labor (both the male and female have to do this) and the revenue generated goes to sponsor an American kid, getting that kid out of poverty.

If you take a life from abortion, you should be required to save a life by some other method.

You also might want to change your name, because with a name like that, I thought you would be pro choice.
#23
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@TheUnderdog
Maybe he is pro choice for letting the states choose.
#24
Public-Choice
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@TheUnderdog
That’s why I think the penalty for abortion should be 3 weeks of hard labor
Well let's put it this way. Do you think the Nazis should have only received 3 weeks of hard labor? What about the people who handed over jews to be killed?

If we are all up in arms and demanding blood for the holocaust, then abortion is no different. Abortion is extremely brutal, barbaric, and torturously painful for the baby. Kinda like how throwing the jewish people in gas ovens was extremely brutal, barbaric, and torturously painful for the jewish people thrown into those ovens.

So if we are angry in one instance, we should be equally angry in the other instance.

You also might want to change your name, because with a name like that, I thought you would be pro choice.
Welp. So far I've won 70% of my debates lmao.
#25
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@TheUnderdog
what do you disagree with
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#26
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@Public-Choice
You also might want to change your name, because with a name like that, I thought you would be pro choice.
Welp. So far I've won 70% of my debates lmao.
What do these have to do with each other?

Do you think the Nazis should have only received 3 weeks of hard labor? What about the people who handed over jews to be killed?
I’m unsure.  I’m just courious as to how far this goes.  For American Soliders who killed civilians in the Iraq war because they were ordered to, do they deserve the death penalty or life in jail?  Personally, I think the people who initially gave orders to kill civilians (certain politicians) deserve the death penalty. But I think it would be unwise to get angry at Soliders for taking orders.  Otherwise nobody would want to join the military for fear that they might be ordered to kill civilians and have to pick between being dishonorably discharged or getting life imprisonment for killing civilians.  You may be fine with no countries having a military and that would be the ideal.  But as long as other countries have an army, America needs one as well.  If there is a UN law that outlaws national armies, few countries will abide by it, making it useless.
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#27
TheUnderdog
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@Vici
The fact that if everyone who is the mother or father of an aborted baby got the death penalty, you would have to kill 1/6 of America.  It’s not pragmatic, but it shifts the Overton window to something that I would perfer more (parents of aborted babies have to do hard labor for 3 weeks and the revenue generated from that hard labor goes to sponsor a poor American kid, getting that kid out of poverty).  Take a life from abortion, save a life by some other method.
#28
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@TheUnderdog
  • Republican logic:
  • Abortion=murder.
  • Murder=Death sentence


Too me it's quite simple. Killing an innocent life is unethical while killing Ted Bundy is not killing an innocent person.

Some republicans and democrats are consistent in opposing both abortion and capital punishment those people have organizations that are also generally anti war as well. 

Therefore, it would seem that if you really want abortion to be classified as murder, that means the death penalty of life in jail for those that are responsible, from the woman to the man that got her pregnant.
This is silly. I am pro life and I don't think punishment should be punishable for the woman only doctors who perform them. It's murder but we need to have some empathy for the woman as well. 

As a matter of fact I see a lot of teenage girls who end up charged for murder for giving birth and throwing the baby in a dumpster. Though this is a disgusting act, I would even in those cases just give the mother a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 3 months jail sentence as well as whatever psychological help she requires.


Most republicans who are pro life Is assume are just like me. We don't see the women who have these abortions as evil. I had 2 friends who had abortions and they are unaware I am even pro life, because I just gave them a ton of empathy and was a shoulder to cry on. 
#29
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@Barney
Let's not forget that to some avoiding pregnancy to begin with equals abortion.
Philosophically it is the same depending on your philosophical position. When God said he fruitful and multiply he wasn't fucking around. 

Pragmatically they shouldn't be be treated the same by the government though. I also think that 25% you cited as thinking abortion to save a mother's life is unacceptable seems like a bullshit statistic. I wonder how it was asked and who it was asked of. Like if you have it questioned the following ways I could see that number being higher than what a person would put on a stranger.


1. Would you consider it murder if your child was aborted to save the mother's life 


Will get more yes answers than

2. Should a woman who aborts a pregnancy to save her life be considered a murderer 

And both would get less yes answers than

3. Is it murder for a mother to kill her baby to save her own life? 

That's why I just don't trust a lot of these surveys not to mention the fact people just like trolling people who conduct surveys
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#30
TheUnderdog
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@Wylted
Too me it's quite simple. Killing an innocent life is unethical while killing Ted Bundy is not killing an innocent person.
I agree that there is a difference between killing a baby and a murderer.  But do you want to treat females that get abortions like murderers?  If so, this means death penalty or life in jail.
. I am pro life and I don't think punishment should be punishable for the woman only doctors who perform them. It's murder but we need to have some empathy for the woman as well.
The post continued.  You might have missed that.

As a matter of fact I see a lot of teenage girls who end up charged for murder for giving birth and throwing the baby in a dumpster. Though this is a disgusting act, I would even in those cases just give the mother a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 3 months jail sentence as well as whatever psychological help she requires.

If you kill a post born baby, you absolutely should be tried for murder and given the death penalty.
I had 2 friends who had abortions and they are unaware I am even pro life, because I just gave them a ton of empathy and was a shoulder to cry on.
People that murder don’t deserve empathy; they only deserve punishment.  This punishment can’t be death or life in jail due to the frequency of abortion, but it needs to be proportionate to unjustly taking a life.