Stephen wrote: And what is it that you believe Jesus changed during the short time of his ministry?
almost everything we know about Jesus comes from the Gospels,
Which is very little. When we boil it down is all we are left with is a collection of sayings and are probably not necessarily original to Jesus-
Are you
saying Jesus didn’t say these things, or just that he wasn’t the first person
in history to ever say these kinds of things? Why is that important to you?
for instance, the Golden Rule "do unto others", is believed by some to have originated with Confucius. This not to reduce the import in any way.
Various expressions of this rule can be found in the tenets
of most religions and creeds through the ages, why is it significant to
you that Jesus didn’t invent the concept?
And besides these sayings, there is an old, rehashed story about a dying and rising god of which there had been many. For example, Dionysius was said to be a “Son of God”, was born of a woman that had no sexual relationship with a man, came on a donkey, said to have performed miracles, and was killed and resurrected, and became immortal.
Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead, known as the saviour.
Buddas' mother was told by an angel that she’d give birth to a blessed child destined to be a saviour. Horus, Apollonius, Hercules etc etc. The list is long. So again, nothing new or original.
The experience of the sacred, the experiential reality of
human beings we refer to as Spiritual, is common to all peoples in all times, in
every place and in every time we have found evidence that man existed, we have
found evidence that man was a spiritual being. It is a universal characteristic among peoples and cultures that did not
have contact with one another; it arose spontaneously in all places and all
times. Man is always found relating to the whole of reality with his whole being. This leads to no other conclusion but that a
Spiritual orientation is the natural state of human beings.
Were you of the opinion that people think Jesus
invented religion?
I’m struggling to discern a point to all this, can
you be a little more explicit about what point you are trying to make?
The historical Jesus had a movement following after him,
So had all the others until their time was up and along came a new 'god' on the block when the skies moved into a new age. <<< you should seriously consider that.
Well
Captain Obvious, I actually had already seriously considered that there were
other people with followers both before and after Jesus, what is the
significance of that, how does pointing that out serve your agenda?
The Gospels are not simply about what happened to Jesus, they are also about what happened to Jesus’ followers, who experienced His continuing presence as a living reality long after his death.
Well, if one wanted to continue a movement after it lost its leader, that is the "vision" and image I would be promoting.
And you think being a catalyst for a movement that
two thousand years later is two billion strong, amounts to “no change”, OK, and
how does that serve your agenda? It’s
unclear what you are trying to sell here.
The historical Jesus didn’t found the Christian church by his ministry, the church came into being after His death, it is the resurrection that is the starting point of Christian religion.
(A) And I believe that the Jew Jesus would have been absolutely appalled that a whole new religion had sprang up in his name.
I would agree with that speculation, I think early
Christianity was a movement within Judaism that was tolerated until the
destruction of the second temple, afterward it was seen as a threat to
traditional Judaism and rejected as having moved far enough away from traditional
Judaism to no be a separate religion.
An honest reading of what he actually said and did indicates that he was a Jewish rabbi who walked in the tradition of the prophets, was a teacher, a healer and wonderworker, a man that challenged prevailing systems of purity while associating with the marginal elements of society.
I can agree with some of that. But it is not unusual for say a politician to come out on the side of the poor and disenfranchised and that claims to " feel you pain" is it? Seriously what better and more fertile place to gather new recruits? And why? because this is where one will find the numbers. There are more of "us" than there are "them", that is why?
Is this conspiracy scholarship, do you think Jesus
was trying to get elected? What office do
you think he was campaigning for?
There is no historical evidence that he ever intended to establish a new set of religious dogmas or found a new religion.
I agree see (A) above. It was those that came after and maybe the few remaining members of the original movement. and we have to consider that which Jesus himself is alleged to have said " I have not come to change the law".
Yep, I’ve considered that, and the point you are
making again?
It appears that you are trying to make an argument of
some kind, it’s just not clear what it is you are arguing. If you were to have made you point, what
would be the conclusion?
His teaching "astonished" those who heard him.
Maybe it did. But again, this is nothing new. He was speaking to a new generation of a nation that had been under one foreign rule) or another for hundreds of years and heir gods by the time Jesus made his appearance there had been many "messiahs" come and go.
OK, and you were thinking that there are people who
think that Jesus was the first person in history to “astonish” those who heard
him? How doesn’t pointing out that he
wasn’t serve you agenda, what is the point?
Seeing how the historical Jesus reacted to the violence, corruption, and political and religious oppression he faced may help us all to see how the "Christ force" might act in us today and with what passion and unambiguous focus we may challenge the rather similar circumstances we face.
Again, nothing new. All new commers preach "a different way". Some come to build on the back of others or discard what is no longer applicable to the age of the time.
So back to my question, what did Jesus' change during his short ministry? The answer is- nothing.
LOL, if you think there is no evidence that Jesus had
an impact, that two billion followers two thousand years later count as
nothing, then OK, whatever floats your boat. Still don’t quite understand the point you are trying to make, please
complete the following sentence. Jesus
changed nothing and therefore _____________ (fill in the blank)
There could be an entirely different answer to this if ,Jesus survived the cross,
OK, do tell, what changed only if Jesus survived the
cross?
Do you think that you are the first
person in history to believe that? I ask
because this concept seems to be so important to you.
Also, how does your assertion relate to
your BOP game, is there a burden of proof that Jesus survived the cross, or do
you have a “get out of BOP free” card, or maybe you are wearing your cloak of
BOP invisibility?
I'm not a gamer, so you need to explain these things to me.