The case for the Historical Jesus

Author: Shila

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The objective of this thread was to build a case for the Historical Jesus and to get as many people to accept this simple historical  fact.

Stephen’s response: “And I accept there was such a man that lived in 1st century Palestine - minus the miracles. But I cannot prove it on the bases of there is so little evidence. It's called being honest with myself.”

You were not asked to prove anything. The evidence was a collection of accounts written by those who lived  during Jesus’s time and followed him. There were also accounts by historians who reported these events.
All you had to do was accept the case for the Historical Jesus built by Shila in this thread which you did.

You said: “And I accept there was such a man that lived in 1st century Palestine.”

Did Jesus actually exist or is he a mythological figure.?

 Stephen’s response: “I believe that Jesus was a man that believed himself to be or was led to be believe that he was the rightful heir to the throne of David and king of the Jews and Jerusalem minus the miracles. While I also believe he was a man wrapped in a myth by the early church.”

In your own words you accept Jesus as a man, therefore he was a historical person.
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@Shila
The objective of this thread was to build a case for the Historical Jesus and to get as many people to accept this simple historical  fact.

Stephen’s response: “And I accept there was such a man that lived in 1st century Palestine - minus the miracles. But I cannot prove it on the bases of there is so little evidence. It's called being honest with myself.”

That's correct. I gave absolutely no evidence to support my belief. 


Did Jesus actually exist or is he a mythological figure.?

 Stephen’s response: “I believe that Jesus was a man that believed himself to be or was led to be believe that he was the rightful heir to the throne of David and king of the Jews and Jerusalem minus the miracles. While I also believe he was a man wrapped in a myth by the early church.”
That's correct. A MAN wrapped in a myth.  But I cannot prove it and neither can you.


In your own words you accept Jesus as a man, therefore he was a historical person.

But I cannot prove it. And neither can you.

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Stephen wrote: But I cannot prove it. And neither can you.
The objective of this thread was to build a case for the Historical Jesus and to get as many people to accept this simple historical  fact.

Stephen’s response: “I believe that Jesus was a man that believed himself to be or was led to be believe that he was the rightful heir to the throne of David and king of the Jews and Jerusalem minus the miracles. While I also believe he was a man wrapped in a myth by the early church.”

Accepting Jesus existed and was a man wrapped in a myth by the early church is acknowledging Jesus was a historical person.
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What Jesus didn’t leave behind is also a historical fact.

What Jesus left behind is more astonishing when you think of what he didn’t leave:

No wife or child
No house
No clothes
No money
No business
No writings (directly authored while he was on earth)
No hymns
No portrait
No buildings
No cross remnant
No confirmed gravesite
So scant a corporeal trace did Jesus leave that some have claimed he was a myth. The only things he left behind were people who believed his gospel. Jesus left his Word (teaching) and his church (a few hundred people).

And these two legacies changed the course of history. They are, in fact, what history is all about.

Everything passes away: rulers, nations, professions, species, industries, families, possessions, political movements, houses, IRAs, 401Ks, heirlooms, photos, books, cars, schools, degrees, careers—every earthly thing we cherish.

Except for Jesus’ Word and his church.

Those were Jesus’ priorities and legacy. Are they yours? Are you investing in what will last? What will your legacy reveal mattered most to you?

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away” (Matthew 24:35).
“I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).

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Are There Jewish Texts that Reference Jesus?
Yes. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus mentions Jesus, although the major reference in his Antiquities of the Jews appears to have been edited and augmented by Christian scribes. There are a few references in the Talmud to “Yeshu,” which many authorities understand as referring to Jesus.
The Talmud tractate Sanhedrin originally recorded that Yeshu the Nazarene was hung on the eve of Passover for the crime of leading Jews astray. This reference was excised from later versions of the Talmud, most likely because of its use by Christians as a pretext for persecution.In the medieval period, a work called Toledot Yeshu presented an alternative history of Jesus that rejects cardinal Christian beliefs. The work, which is not part of the canon of rabbinic literature, is not widely known.
Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, describes Jesus as the failed messiah foreseen by the prophet Daniel. Rather than redeeming Israel, Maimonides writes, Jesus caused Jews to be killed and exiled, changed the Torah and led the world to worship a false God.
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The Historical impact of Jesus on history.

The example of Jesus led to a completely different view of the worth of children, women, slaves, and the disabled than the societies of the ancient world. Because Jesus showed that every human being is made in the image of God, His followers understood that all people are of equal worth and deserving of love.
Jesus also had a significant influence on art. Much of the art from late antiquity through the Renaissance depicts Jesus or themes from His life and teaching. Many of the most famous paintings on display in museums depict stories from the Gospels. Even in the modern world Jesus continues to be an inspiration for many works of visual art, music, and literature.
It seems uncanny that Jesus, who lived in an area on the eastern edge of the Roman Empire and never left the region, who had only several thousand followers at His death, and was shunned by both the religious and political establishment of the time, is not only remembered 2,000 years later, but is the most famous person in all of human history. Many may disregard the teachings of Jesus, but no one can deny the tremendous and unparalleled impact that Jesus has had on history.

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How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too
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DOES JESUS’ BAPTISM REFUTE THE TRINITY?
The LDS Church rejects the Christian doctrine of the Trinity—claiming it is a manmade doctrine that has no basis in Scripture. One frequently given evidence to support this claim is the account of Jesus’ Baptism, in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost were all doing distinct actions.
Latter-day Saints often point out that Christians believe (because of the Trinity) that God was a puppet master, controlling each person of the Godhead in turn, to create the illusion that there were multiple people involved. Mormons have a solution: the LDS Godhead. Mormonism views the Godhead as 3 separate beings that are completely united in purpose. But – does this view of the Trinity accurately represent what Christians believe?

Jesus baptism DOES include the actions of three separate persons, who can interact with each other in different ways. Yet this does not disprove what Christians believe about the nature of God and the Trinity.

“And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'” (Matthew 3:16-17)

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Further, Didymus the Blind (c. 313–398) states that "We find in certain gospels" an episode in which a woman was accused of a sin, and was about to be stoned, but Jesus intervened "and said to those who were about to cast stones, 'He who has not sinned, let him take a stone and throw it.

What did Jesus do for prostitutes?
Throughout scripture, Jesus shows kindness and favor to tax collectors and prostitutes. He is merciful to the adulteress from John 8:1-11, reclines with Levi in Mark 2:13-17, and, in Luke 19:1-10, inspires Zaccheus to give half his goods to the poor.

17 days later

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How many mentions of Jesus are in the Quran?

Answer and Explanation: Jesus is mentioned 108 times in the Quran directly or in the third-person, and at least 187 times indirectly. This makes him the most mentioned person in the Quran. He is referred to by name as Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary), and he is described as the Messiah (al-Masih in Arabic).

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1. What evidence do we have that Jesus was in fact a Historical person?

The four canonical gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are the main sources for the biography of Jesus' life, the teachings and actions attributed to him.

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Jesus, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), 

The first non-Christian writer to talk about Jesus was the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born Yosef ben Matityahu),who lived around AD 47-100. He referred to Christ in his history of Judaism “Jewish Antiquities” from AD 93. In the book, Jesus comes up twice – once in a curious passage about Jesus’s supposed brother Jamesand in another paragraph that has since been questioned in its authenticity.

2. Were the 12 disciples who followed Jesus historical as well?

There  is plenty of evidence that the twelve disciples were real people.  In fact, no one who knows the evidence can seriously entertain the thought that these men were not real people.  We have evidence from both Christian and non-Christian sources that the apostles were real people (I am assuming that by the 12 disciples you mean the 12 apostles).  I was watching a video one time by Bart Ehrman, who is an atheist, but also one of the top scholars about things related to the Bible.  A fellow atheist who was not well informed tried to tell Ehrman that he did not believe that Paul existed. Ehrman rebuked the man for making atheism look foolish.  No serious person could claim that Paul did not exist. It would be like claiming that Cicero did not exist. This is crazy thinking.

We have the evidence from Josephus who tells us about the martyrdom of James, the brother of Jesus, who was the leader of the Jerusalem church. Josephus also relates the execution of the apostle James. We also have the evidence of the early church writers. The first important church historian, Eusebius, wrote in the early fourth century. He tells about all twelve of the apostles, plus Paul, relating where each ministered and how they died. Eusebius quotes his sources, such as second century historian Papias and Irenaeus and other Christian writers. The reliability of Eusebius varies somewhat, but he was a careful scholar and he quoted his sources. Some of the things he tells us about what happened to the twelve may be inaccurate, but what cannot be wrong is that there were twelve apostles.  There is no way someone like Eusebius could have gotten the number of apostles wrong. Irenaeus, writing in the second century, tells us that he learned under Polycarp who knew the apostle John personally.  Is it possible that Irenaeus got this wrong? I do not think so.  If we go back to such books as the Didache and the Letter of Clement to the Romans, both written around the turn of the first century, that there were twelve apostles was assumed. This had been the tradition of the Christian church from the beginning of its existence.  Is there any possible motivation for the church to make up the existence of twelve apostles?  I cannot think of any.

The Didache, a very early Christian catechism dates from the very late first century. When it was written, some who had known the apostles were still alive, although they would have been quite old.  The Didache is also known as “The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles.” The unknown writer of the Didache assumes that there were twelve apostles because it was common knowledge that there were twelve apostles.  The people who knew Jesus personally would have known how many apostles there were.  It is irrational to believe that there were not twelve apostles of Jesus because every account of Christianity is unanimous on this account, including even Josephus who was not a friend of Christianity.

Did Jesus claim he was God?

Many contemporary New Testament scholars do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth ever actually claimed to be God.
According to C.S.Lewis’s we have three choices.
1. Liar: Jesus knew he wasn’t God, but he said he was;
2. Lunatic: Jesus thought he was God, but he actually wasn’t;
3. Lord: Jesus was who he said he was—God come in the flesh.

Bart Ehrman. This is how he responds to C. S. Lewis’s argument:
Jesus probably never called himself God…. This means that he doesn’t have to be either a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. He could be a first-century Palestinian Jew who had a message to proclaim other than his own divinity.

There are two occasions on which Jesus is almost stoned to death because of who he claims to be:
The Jews said to him, “…Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died?…Who do you claim to be?”…Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they took up stones to throw at him. (John 8:52, 53, 58-59)
[Jesus said:] “I and the Father are one.” The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We stone you for no good work but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.” (John 10:30-33)