MAGA Martyr

Author: IwantRooseveltagain

Posts

Total: 145
#91
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,127
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived. Overdose victims who die rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, since death often occurs before the body can break the drug down, he said
This paragraph contradicts itself. A ratio is a division. If there was no norfentanyl that would be division by zero. Thus we can see that if there is an average ratio overdose victims often (always) have norfentanyl in their system.

On the face of it this is a doomed argument. To illustrate consider the possible characterizations of nine minutes in metabolic terms.

If there is normally almost no norfentanyl in overdose cases and there was norfentanyl in Floyd, that implies that in overdose cases people die faster than Floyd died.

We know the difference in time from ingesting the drugs and death is roughly ten minutes. If ten minutes is enough time to process 5.6 ng/mL we're looking at 0.56 ng/(mL * min).

This allows us to set an absolute maximum time someone could take to die from fentanyl overdose since obviously they can't die if it took so long that they processed the drug into an inactive version. If 7 ng/mL is the lower limit of lethality then (7 ng/mL) / (0.56 ng/(mL * min)) = 12.5 minutes.

Keep in mind we know that anyone who survives longer than 12.5 minutes would have 5.6 ng/mL or more and the claim of the paragraph is that this is not observed.

Is it true that all fentanyl overdoses occur within 12.5 minutes? I would be very surprised. It makes far more sense that the lower the dose the longer you can live without dying and the more of the drug you will metabolize. If the absorption rate from whatever medium the drug came in roughly matched your metabolization of the drug you could have huge amounts of the by product build up while the active form of the drug suppresses your breathing slowly.

That is of course the basis of the field of anesthesiology.

That was logic, for those who don't feel comfortable with logic there is googling:


Mean fentanyl: 13.2ng/mL
Mean norfentanyl: 4.6ng/mL

Going to bring in some of my own "inexpert" math here: 13.2/4.6 = 2.87 = average ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl.

George Floyd had a ratio of 11/5.6 = 1.96

So my fact check of the bolded paragraph is FALSE, and if it was said by a knowledgeable person it is a LIE.
#92
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
IwantRooseveltagain,
-->@TWS1405
Typical intellectual c0ward retort. Can rebut it, make a personal attack. 
Great spelling. And your own toxicology report contradicted your statement 
Yeah, I did that just for you. Why? Because you are sooooo predictable. Any mistake, typo or otherwise, will be used as a rebuttal (ad hom) instead of addressing the argument with you.

The Toxicology report does NOT contradict my own statement.


What is Norfentanyl used for?
Norfentanyl is a chemical compound that completes the synthesis of Fentanyl. Doctors have historically used to treat breakthrough pain and as a pre-operative pain reliever. Today, it is frequently used in illegal drug laboratories.
How long does Norfentanyl stay in urine?
Norfentanyl can be detected in urine up to four days after last use, according to a study. Norfentanyl was present in more significant quantities than Fentanyl immediately after use. Additionally, this Schedule II drug was detected in all patients at 48 h and in 4 of 7 patients at 96 h.

Those who testified on the stand LIED! To the court, attorneys, and jury it is all "Greek" to them, and thus they just expect or depend on them telling the truth under threat of perjury. But when these LIARS don't fear being fact checked during trial (unless one side or the other brings another witness not willing to lie and tell the truth) and given the heightened racial atmosphere with looming threats of further violence and destruction by BLM, Antifa and other blacks who just want an excuse to rape, pillage, burn and murder others. 
#93
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
That is of course the basis of the field of anesthesiology.

That was logic, for those who don't feel comfortable with logic there is googling:


Mean fentanyl: 13.2ng/mL
Mean norfentanyl: 4.6ng/mL

Going to bring in some of my own "inexpert" math here: 13.2/4.6 = 2.87 = average ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl.

George Floyd had a ratio of 11/5.6 = 1.96

So my fact check of the bolded paragraph is FALSE, and if it was said by a knowledgeable person it is a LIE.
BINGO!!!!
#94
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
IwantRooseveltagain,

Nowhere in the toxicology report is nor fentanyl mentioned. He lied. There are two references to increased levels of fentanyl in his blood at 34 and 50 ng/ML. 
Floyd killed himself. 
That’s a lie. norfentanyl is listed on the line directly below the fentanyl line in the toxicology report you attached. The amount is listed as 5.6 ng/ml

Are you stupid or a liar? Perhaps both.
Nope. Just checking to see if you were paying attention to detail. 

Notwithstanding, norfentanyl isn't a derivative (i.e., broken down from fentanyl) in the body as claimed, it is a medication in and of itself. See previous response with link. ADreamofLiverty blew that fact out of the water with your retort. 
Topic's author
#95
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@TWS1405
Nope. Just checking to see if you were paying attention to detail. 
What a liar. That’s exactly the kind of thing Trump would do when he was called out for some demonstrably false statement. The other option was to say you were just joking.  Trump does that too. What an embarrassment.

#96
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
Nope. Not a liar. But you are. And you suffer greatly from Trump Derangement Syndrome. I bet you look at pictures of Trump and touch yourself, seeing as you have such a clear hardon for him. 
Topic's author
#97
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@TWS1405
You are now officially LCpl Liar
#98
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,127
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
There are errors in post #91 that do not affect the conclusion.

I divided fentanyl mass rate by norfentanyl mass rate. Norfentanyl is missing a benzene ring on a stick and would be 69% the weight of any fentanyl it came from:


It appears to be false that norfentanyl is not a metabolic product of fentanyl https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8886601/.

As TWS said it is a drug in its own right, norfentanyl has many of the same affects as fentanyl so when I implied that it couldn't kill you that was wrong.

It is therefore especially non-sensical to claim that a fentanyl overdose must be rapid. Even after this metabolization the net affect would not be reduced. It's simply a question of how quickly the pill or paste or what not he swallowed was dissolved into his blood stream. If you mixed fentanly into gum and swallowed it, it would release much more slowly but that would only prolong your suffering if the rate of release was higher than the rate of neutralization.

There is no way a responsible honest pharmacologist could testify that a drug overdose MUST occur within a certain time frame or overdose has to be ruled out. The only way to rule out an overdose is by establishing that the symptoms did not exist, and they most certainly did. He said he couldn't breathe. He said he didn't want to die.
#99
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@TWS1405
Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose. He took it as cops were walking up and died of respiratory distress and heart failure DUE TO FENTANYL OVERDOSE MIXED WITH ORHER ILLICIT DRUGS. period. Fact. Period. 
George Floyd’s family was awarded 27 million dollar settlement in recognition of the injustice in his death.q

Topic's author
#100
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
George Floyd’s family was awarded 27 million dollar settlement in recognition of the injustice in his death
Doesn’t matter. Facts don’t matter to Republicans and MAGA Republicans believe everything is a conspiracy to undermine white supremacy.

Topic's author
#101
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
There are errors in post #91
Oh no doubt there are errors. Starting with the fact you are talking out of your ass. 

#102
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Shila
>@TWS1405
Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose. He took it as cops were walking up and died of respiratory distress and heart failure DUE TO FENTANYL OVERDOSE MIXED WITH ORHER ILLICIT DRUGS. period. Fact. Period. 
George Floyd’s family was awarded 27 million dollar settlement in recognition of the injustice in his death.q
A court settlement is not evidence of guilt on any level on the part of the police. Nor does it change the medical fact that Floyd killed himself, and the left used it as a political tool to further divide the country and garner more votes from the black sheeple who keep voting Democrat.
#103
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,127
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Shila
Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose. He took it as cops were walking up and died of respiratory distress and heart failure DUE TO FENTANYL OVERDOSE MIXED WITH ORHER ILLICIT DRUGS. period. Fact. Period. 
George Floyd’s family was awarded 27 million dollar settlement in recognition of the injustice in his death.q
Here is a diagnostic question: If Rittenhouse sues for defamation and wins millions of dollars, what will that mean?
#104
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,227
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
@TWS1405
Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived. Overdose victims who die rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, since death often occurs before the body can break the drug down, he said
This paragraph contradicts itself. A ratio is a division. If there was no norfentanyl that would be division by zero. Thus we can see that if there is an average ratio overdose victims often (always) have norfentanyl in their system.
Isenschmid’s testimony never suggested that the norfentanyl levels should be zero. He said that they are rarely present in overdose cases and that death often occurs before norfentanyl could be produced. Translation: it does in fact happen. So you have already begun your response with a strawman.

Let’s recap what we know/understand:

When fentanyl enters the human body, the body will break it down into nor fentanyl.

Overdoses typically happen before or very early on in this process, so the less nor fentanyl in one’s system the more indicative it is of an overdose.

Conversely, the more nor fentanyl in one’s system the further along their body has gone in breaking it down, which is less indicative of an overdose.

Your own ratios therefore support the opposite of your point. The numbers you found showed 13.2 vs Floyd’s levels which was 11, so Floyd had less fentanyl in his system than the mean. Meanwhile his nor fentanyl levels were 5.6 vs the mean of 4.6, so he had well more of it broken down.

This shows the opposite of what you claim.

Q2: How much fentanyl is enough to be considered lethal?
Your source specifically states that 7ng/ml is lethal with the use of poly substances.

“While it’s true Mr. Floyd had small amounts of methamphetamine and THC, the primary psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, in his blood — 19 and 2.9 nanograms per milliliter, respectively — those numbers strongly suggest he hadn’t used them in at least several hours, maybe a day.

Also, Mr. Floyd’s methamphetamine levels were far below those I have found, in my laboratory research on dozens of participants, necessary to induce significantly elevated cardiovascular activity: greater than 25 nanograms per milliliter. The amount of methamphetamine (and THC) found in Mr. Floyd’s blood was too low for it to have had any meaningful effect on him…

So, what does 11 nanograms of fentanyl tell us about Mr. Floyd’s mental and physical state moments before his death? Not much, because the same amount of fentanyl that produces pleasure in a tolerant user can result in an overdose in an infrequent user. That’s why, together with the toxicology report, we have to interpret Mr. Floyd’s behavior shortly before he was killed, which is a barometer of a person’s impairment.

We saw that he was emotionally appropriate and behaving rationally, considering the circumstances. Minutes before his encounter with police, he purchased an item from a deli and was about to leave when officers asked him to get out of his car. Together, these observations suggest he had developed some level of tolerance to fentanyl-related effects and show how unlikely it is that drugs played a role in his death. People on the verge of dying from an opioid overdose are inactive and look visibly drowsy. He was neither.”

So given that the experts have weighed in on this in the trial and outside of it concluding it was not the fentanyl that killed him, why are we, who have no expertise in this field, arguing about this?…

Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose.
Of course.

It couldn’t possibly be the case that perhaps you just don’t understand the medical science on this. It must be that the entire toxicology field is in on it.
#105
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,852
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
We saw that he was emotionally appropriate and behaving rationally, considering the circumstances

I'm sorry, but yelling and screaming that you cant breathe isn't a "rational response." That's a man's body instinctively telling everyone he is dying before he was put on the ground.

#106
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,227
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
I'm sorry, but yelling and screaming that you cant breathe isn't a "rational response." That's a man's body instinctively telling everyone he is dying before he was put on the ground.
Right. So damn the toxicologists, the pulmonologists, doctors, etc. You saw with your own eyes that he said he couldn’t breath, so you know what caused his death.

Ok Rowbotham. 


#107
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,852
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
Unlike you, I don't think Floyd was "faking it"
#108
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,127
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
Isenschmid’s testimony never suggested that the norfentanyl levels should be zero. He said that they are rarely present in overdose cases and that death often occurs before norfentanyl could be produced. Translation: it does in fact happen. So you have already begun your response with a strawman.
Not present = 0, and it's false that it's rarely zero or significantly lower than what was observed in Floyd's blood. See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29408723/ (2nd post of this link)

Not a strawman, still a lie.

Your own ratios therefore support the opposite of your point. The numbers you found showed 13.2 vs Floyd’s levels which was 11, so Floyd had less fentanyl in his system than the mean. Meanwhile his nor fentanyl levels were 5.6 vs the mean of 4.6, so he had well more of it broken down.

This shows the opposite of what you claim.
I claimed that Floyd's results were within a standard deviation of the overdose distribution. This does not show the opposite of that, there is no opposite of that.


So given that the experts have weighed in on this in the trial and outside of it concluding it was not the fentanyl that killed him, why are we, who have no expertise in this field, arguing about this?…
I don't know why are you arguing about this if you think you are unqualified? Why do you feel comfortable contradicting the defense expert witnesses, the studies they cited?

Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose.
Of course.

It couldn’t possibly be the case that perhaps you just don’t understand the medical science on this. It must be that the entire toxicology field is in on it.
See now that is what a strawman looks like. 2 prosecution witnesses in an ultrapolarized national spectacle of a trial is not equivalent to "the entire toxicology field".

In fact part of the toxicology field is right here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29408723/

and TWS isn't saying they're lying.
#109
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
--> @Shila
Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose. He took it as cops were walking up and died of respiratory distress and heart failure DUE TO FENTANYL OVERDOSE MIXED WITH ORHER ILLICIT DRUGS. period. Fact. Period. 
George Floyd’s family was awarded 27 million dollar settlement in recognition of the injustice in his death.q
Here is a diagnostic question: If Rittenhouse sues for defamation and wins millions of dollars, what will that mean?

There is evidence he shot 3 people. But he claimed it was in self defence. So he admitted to shooting them.
#110
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Double_R
You clearly didn't see this posting of mine.
#111
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@TWS1405
-->@Double_R
You clearly didn't see this posting of mine.

Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.

Overdose victims who die rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, since death often occurs before the body can break the drug down, he said.

Fact check: Viral image does not show President Joe Biden apologizing to George Floyd's child

Isenschmid's testimony was supported by pulmonologist and critical care specialist Dr. Martin Tobin of Loyola University Medical Center.

"Mr. Floyd died from a low level of oxygen, and this caused damage to his brain that we see. And it also caused a PEA (pulseless electrical activity) arrhythmia that caused his heart to stop," he told the court. He explained Floyd's body position on the street, handcuffs pulling his arms back and a knee on his neck, back and sides, led to his low oxygen levels.

"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.

He stated because fentanyl typically slows down a person's breathing, the drug was not a contributing factor based on his calculations of Floyd's breathing rate based on witness video, which at the time appeared about the same as a healthy individual. 

#112
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,127
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Shila
Everyone on the stand LIED regarding Floyd’s obvious overdose. He took it as cops were walking up and died of respiratory distress and heart failure DUE TO FENTANYL OVERDOSE MIXED WITH ORHER ILLICIT DRUGS. period. Fact. Period. 
George Floyd’s family was awarded 27 million dollar settlement in recognition of the injustice in his death.q
Here is a diagnostic question: If Rittenhouse sues for defamation and wins millions of dollars, what will that mean?
There is evidence he shot 3 people. But he claimed it was in self defence. So he admitted to shooting them.
Yea, he clearly shot three people; that wasn't the question. What would it mean if Rittenhouse won a civil suit for damages caused by defamation, say in regards to some anchor saying he was a white supremacist.

Would that mean he's not a white supremacist?
#113
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,227
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Why do you feel comfortable contradicting the defense expert witnesses, the studies they cited?
The defense provided one expert witness;

“David Fowler, a retired forensic pathologist said that the manner of Floyd's death should be classified as "undetermined" rather than "homicide".”

So let’s recap;

Your claim is that the expert witnesses for the prosecution lied about easily verifiable data, in the most watched trial in a decade, that put a man in jail for over 20 years.

And not only did the defense fail to go after these experts for perjury, which would easily get their client out of jail, but the one expert witness they were able to recruit to sell their narrative could do no better than to argue; ‘meh, who knows?’

And so in the absence of qualified experts explaining in detail how the prosecution lied, you, with no medical expertise beyond that fact that you used to wrestle, have taken to Google to do your own research and present that as informed criticism of the persecutions expert testimony.

And your explanation for why you seem to know so much better than those who have spent their entire lives studying this is that everyone’s lying. And how do you know they’re lying? Because your wrestling background informed Google searching said so.

This is why “conspiracy theorist” is a derogatory term.

Since you enjoy googling so much, try keying in Rowbothom.
#114
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,227
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
I’m just going to leave this here.

“Fentanyl, and other opioids, cause the exact opposite effect. Opioids act on the brainstem, the part of the brain that controls breathing, to suppress breathing. Not only do opioids suppress breathing, opioids also suppress respiratory drive; they take away even the desire to breathe. We commonly prescribe opioids to help people who are dying or suffering from serious respiratory problems to stop them from feeling “air hunger.” In other words, opioids like fentanyl actually prevent people from knowing they can’t breathe and from feeling like they can’t breathe.”
#115
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,852
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
So you think Floyd was a lying piece of shit. Noted.
#116
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,227
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
Nothing I’ve said remotely resembles that. If you have to flat out lie in order to keep pretending your position is supported with facts and logic, maybe you should just change your position.
#117
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,852
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
Thank you for your concession. I believe Floyd too.
Topic's author
#118
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
And your explanation for why you seem to know so much better than those who have spent their entire lives studying this is that everyone’s lying. And how do you know they’re lying? Because your wrestling background informed Google searching said so.
This is why “conspiracy theorist” is a derogatory term. 
😄 Well, Trumpers have there own way of “thinking”. They don’t need facts to believe what they believe, everything is like religion to them.


#119
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@IwantRooseveltagain
😄 Well, Trumpers have there own way of “thinking”. They don’t need facts to believe what they believe, everything is like religion to them.
strangely, most of the magaqanontrumpheads that i've actually spoken with don't really "care" about "trump"

but they see "trump" as a way to disrupt the status-quo in washington

mainstream career republicans and mainstream career democrats are "the problem"

and even though "trump" isn't really "better", at least the rabid support for "trump" draws attention to the systemic failures of the BINARY political system instead of letting everyone pretend "everything is fine"
#120
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,852
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
November Congressional hearings should be interesting at least.